Nurses are too OP

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Lord Cafe said:

No, not even close! nurses are good but don't make webber invencible or easy to tank you can still die in 3 hits to spider queen even with 20 nurse spiders because they don't heal fast enough even using armor you're gonna need to fight like anyone else in reality is far easy to just make armor and helmet and a bunch of healing food than recruit 20 spiders and beside that any boss which does area damage can kill all the spiders easily.

Deerclops can kill all spiders, bearger, dragonfly(rage), toadstool, crabking, moonboss i think this is enough, beside the seasons bosses which are easy to kill and literraly anyone can take them webber ins't able to beat them like you're saying as i always  say look at any boss kill speed run it's always wolfgang so webber is far from being a easy character to kill bosses, now he's just good at taking care of spiders because before the refresh spiders were useless impossible to control and most of the time they end up killing themselves or killing webber. 

Healing ins't op in this game you can do healing foods with no effort at all and this don't avoid you're getting destroyed by bosses because without properly preparation you're gonna be killed this is the reason why wortox healing ins't op even if you manage to gather 80 butterflies on your inventory(which is harder than cook) if you don't properly fight you're gonna die, i killed Misery Toadstool and was far easy than beating Full Weaver or the new moon boss not because is easy to heal but because is easy to dodge attacks, tanking in dst is the worst strategy and it's only usefull agains't bosses that are easy so i think webber it's completely fine if klei nerf the healing by  each nurse  spider that webber has  so nobody is gonna waste time picking nurse which is probraly the most usefull spider since any other it's preety bad.

As far as I know spiders can beat every seasonal boss aside from bearager(unless you throw stupid numbers at him which is very wasteful) also it only takes 10 spitters to melt just about anything with dps comparable to bunnymen. Also not many people fight enraged dfly but the advantage spiders bring is you can wake them up after putting dfly to sleep.

While I haven't seen anyone do crab, fuel, toad, or the champ I don't think it's impossible but even if it is that's only 4 bosses.

[LonelySkeleton]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:58 PM, SuperMeatGoy said:

Bro Klei threw balance out the window a long time ago youre like a year or two late on these suggestions

Was going to say this lol we have chars like Wortox now. Klei won't nerf Nurse healing and it's fine anyway.

On 6/29/2021 at 5:07 PM, Pig Princess said:

I guess it's time to Wendy players to greet Webber ones in the club of being "OP", which means constantly being annoyed by suggestions of nerf in the most unintersting and uninspired way - remove tools rework gave or make them not worth the effort.

Edit: so Webber now too. Along with Wendy, Wolfgang, Wortox, Wickerbottom, WX, Woodie, bearger and football helmet. At this point it's even funny.

I haven't seen any Wortox complaints since the week of release and even then they were few. I only ever hear about Wolfgang.

17 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

As far as I know spiders can beat every seasonal boss aside from bearager(unless you throw stupid numbers at him which is very wasteful) also it only takes 10 spitters to melt just about anything with dps comparable to bunnymen. Also not many people fight enraged dfly but the advantage spiders bring is you can wake them up after putting dfly to sleep.

While I haven't seen anyone do crab, fuel, toad, or the champ I don't think it's impossible but even if it is that's only 4 bosses.

 

[Dextops]

38 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

we have chars like Wortox now.

how is wortox op?

[goblinball]

38 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Was going to say this lol we have chars like Wortox now.

Wortox isn't really overpowered though? I don't think he's necessarily bad but he's by no means overpowered.

[LonelySkeleton]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

how is wortox op?

To answer that we first need to look at why people consider certain character to be OP.
Take the power trio of WX Wicker and Wolfgang for example, the reason people would say they are OP is because they have very strong upsides but meaningless downsides. With that in mind let's look at Wortox.

His downsides in practice are no different than Wolfgangs, you need more food and lose more sanity than other characters. Needing more food and being lower on sanity on average are both meaningless downsides and half the argument for both characters being OP
Now for his upsides: He doesn't even need hunger or healing foods for 90% of the gameplay loop. He has the fastest movement speed in the game upwards of 300% faster than Wolf on average. His telepoof also grants invincibility frames against most attacks in the game meaning he doesn't even need armor for 75% of fights. Base stats are high too the dude is a powerhouse solo, and only becomes stronger in coop as he negates any need for healing foods for the entire team while simultaneously providing them with darkswords the best weapon in the game. Seriously his only true downside is sanity which is meaningless to experienced players. He plays very similarly to Wolfgang in that sense you're just choosing an unlimited AoE healing over 2x damage output.

Lmk what you think. He doesn't need armor or food for 75-90% of the game, has the unlimited ability to teleport across screen or through enemy attacks, and when paired with a team makes most boss fights a guaranteed win as nobody can die. Is that OP?

Edit: I didn't even mention hostility from Pigs or Bunnymen as that's a non-factor you can still farm them easily it's not a downside imo. And you shouldn't be using Pigs to farm wood either that's what Bearger exists for. But if you really want to negate that "downside" completely you can just use the disguise that Wurt makes.

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

To answer that we first need to look at why people consider certain character to be OP.
Take the power trio of WX Wicker and Wolfgang for example, the reason people would say they are OP is because they have very strong upsides but meaningless downsides. With that in mind let's look at Wortox.

His downsides in practice are no different than Wolfgangs, you need more food and lose more sanity than other characters. Needing more food and being lower on sanity on average are both meaningless downsides and half the argument for both characters being OP
Now for his upsides: He doesn't even need hunger or healing foods for 90% of the gameplay loop. He has the fastest movement speed in the game upwards of 300% faster than Wolf on average. His telepoof also grants invincibility frames against most attacks in the game meaning he doesn't even need armor for 75% of fights. Base stats are high too the dude is a powerhouse solo, and only becomes stronger in coop as he negates any need for healing foods for the entire team while simultaneously providing them with darkswords the best weapon in the game. Seriously his only true downside is sanity which is meaningless to experienced players. He plays very similarly to Wolfgang in that sense you're just choosing an unlimited AoE healing over 2x damage output.

Lmk what you think. He doesn't need armor or food for 75-90% of the game, has the unlimited ability to teleport across screen or through enemy attacks, and when paired with a team makes most boss fights a guaranteed win as nobody can die. Is that OP?

someone watched edgy rick

[goblinball]

12 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

the power trio of WX Wicker and Wolfgang

I'm going to be honest i stopped paying attention to everything you said after this.

[LonelySkeleton]

16 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

someone watched edgy rick

Only seen a few of his vids when i started in 2019 why? Not like i would let anyone influence my opinion, i'm just basing this off my personal experience as a wortox main and time with most characters over the years.

9 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I'm going to be honest i stopped paying attention to everything you said after this.

Why? From my understanding most players consider them to be the most powerful 3. I would add Wortox and Wendy to that personally. Why so close minded that you just ignore the entire response? Am confused

9 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Only seen a few of his vids when i started in 2019 why? Not like i would let anyone influence my opinion, i'm just basing this off my personal experience as a wortox main and time with most characters over the years.

Why? From my understanding most players consider them to be the most powerful 3. I would add Wortox and Wendy to that personally. Why so close minded that you just ignore the entire response? Am confused

Sorry maybe not close minded but pre judgmental? Never understood how some people could burn conversational bridges so fast because they don't like the first few words they read. Like at least explain or give reasoning behind it, don't just be a **** that doesn't help. Imagine taking the time to try n give a good response only to be shut down in the first sentence lol. Guess i should of just replied "He's OP for the same reasons Wolfgang is OP" and went about my day.

[goblinball]

5 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

From my understanding most players consider them to be the most powerful 3.

Very few people believe in "the power trio" or whatever nowadays, and for good reason. As for wortox, not needing food or healing as much as other players isnt that big of a deal considering those are some of the easiest things to get in dst, also at least with jellybeans you dont need to be constantly dropping souls mid fight. you can spam souls to travel long distances quickly, but you're going to run out extremely fast, so excluding teleporting over the occasional gap i dont think its very viable. Also, why use telepoofs for invulnerability when you can just... kite.

[LinknAllie]

35 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

someone watched edgy rick

Does it really matter? 

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Why? From my understanding most players consider them to be the most powerful 3. I would add Wortox and Wendy to that personally. Why so close minded that you just ignore the entire response? Am confused

"most players" die during winter/ live off meatballs and berry farms/ have never interacted with ruins or even caves content at all, if you legitimately want to improve at the game I'd recommend doing the exact opposite of what "most players" do and in 90% of situations you'll achieve better results

now I'm bored so I'll explain why everything you said about wortox is wrong

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

To answer that we first need to look at why people consider certain character to be OP.
Take the power trio of WX Wicker and Wolfgang for example, the reason people would say they are OP is because they have very strong upsides but meaningless downsides.

in reality no, the most op characters to the general community are the ones with flashiest upsides and/or who struggle the least soloing raid bosses or ruins rushing

also wx wicker wolfgang power trio was made up by edgy rick, none of those characters are particularly powerful

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

His downsides in practice are no different than Wolfgangs, you need more food and lose more sanity than other characters. Needing more food and being lower on sanity on average are both meaningless downsides and half the argument for both characters being OP

let's look at wortox's hunger downside:
a wilson would need 35 meaty stews to survive for one year, which can be farmed in about a day with pig and volt goat farms

wortox gains half as much hunger from eating food so he has 3 options:
1. live off normal food, so he has to eat 70 meaty stews per year instead (waste of time, essentially makes wortox have a x2 hunger drain modifier)
2. supplement normal food with souls, so with 35 meaty stew per year he would still need 140 souls on top of that (waste of time)
3. live exclusively off of souls, meaning he would need to eat 280 souls per year

for the last option, not only would you need to kill 280 mobs in a single day, you straight up can't because souls only stack up to 20 and you can't store them in any way; keeping live animals is an extremely inefficient way to get hunger (even for wortox despite his hunger penalty on other foods) and they can't be comfortably bundled because opening bundles releases all the live animals on the floor

to add more insult to injury, any soul used for food is a soul not used for soul hopping or healing, and eating souls will constantly drain your sanity if you only live off of them

there is no way to circumvent this downside and it constantly wastes time so it's not "meaningless" lmfao, but of course we need to look at his upsides next

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Now for his upsides: He doesn't even need hunger or healing foods for 90% of the gameplay loop.

living off souls is the equivalent of living off butterfly wings, seeds and berries

also not only do no characters need any healing food at all because damage is avoidable in this game, some very good hunger dishes like honey ham and dragonpie also restore a decent chunk of health as well without extra effort from the player

also healing becomes trivial if you farm bee queen because jellybeans restore absurd amounts of hp, don't spoil and you get a truckload of them with every bee queen kill which can be every 20 days

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

He has the fastest movement speed in the game upwards of 300% faster than Wolf on average.

this is completely false, a myth spread by edgy rick, and you can easily verify this in game right now

have a wilson run a certain distance and then have wortox use soul hops to traverse the same distance, then have wortox kill an amount of mobs equivalent to the amount of souls used

unless you have an extremely specific bee or spider setup to get your souls wortox will actually end up slower than wilson, and even with a perfect setup you have to keep in mind wortox can't speed up soul hops with a cane, road or a beefalo, meaning using soul hops for fast movement is a waste of time at all stages of the game

the only legitimate use case of soul hops for movement is crossing gaps in the caves since you can't build boat bridges there but even that is completely worldgen dependent

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

His telepoof also grants invincibility frames against most attacks in the game meaning he doesn't even need armor for 75% of fights.

this is useless because kiting exists and the soul hop animation is too long, the only fight where this can actually save time is deerclops because of its long range and the amount of souls it drops on death but all that really saves you is 2 football helmets and if you struggle to have a stable source of armor after 4 hours of gameplay (which is when the first deerclops spawns) you shouldn't be trying to argue that a character is op

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Base stats are high too the dude is a powerhouse solo

there is no difference between 100 and 200 max health, lower health only means you have to start healing sooner if you're tanking but tanking is almost never worth it and even that aspect is invalidated by jellybeans, just kite and wear armor and max health doesn't exist

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

and only becomes stronger in coop as he negates any need for healing foods for the entire team

I agree, wortox, warly and wigfrid are all very good options for encouraging groups of noobs to fight raid bosses and that's why people think they're op in coop

fun fact, with enough people you don't need healing to facetank any raid boss because they die extremely fast

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

while simultaneously providing them with darkswords the best weapon in the game

1. dark swords are almost always a waste of time to make over ham bats for bosses, their strength late game comes the fact that you can just carry living logs and nightmare fuel to craft them on the fly, but if you're fighting dragonfly on a pub just ask a wigfrid to make you spears

2. how does he farm nightmare fuel any better than other characters? souls only take away a minuscule amount of sanity for strict nightmare fuel farming, every character can eat green caps/ repeatedly go through wormholes/ stand in complete darkness lol

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Seriously his only true downside is sanity which is meaningless to experienced players.

you have a long way to go if you think you can talk for "experienced players"

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Is that OP?

no

3 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Edit: I didn't even mention hostility from Pigs or Bunnymen as that's a non-factor you can still farm them easily it's not a downside imo. And you shouldn't be using Pigs to farm wood either that's what Bearger exists for.

no wood gathering with pigs early game means it takes longer to set up fire farms, pig farms and bee farms, aka actually good food sources instead of souls that you can't even stockpile and only wortox can eat

[LonelySkeleton]

43 minutes ago, goblinball said:

Very few people believe in "the power trio" or whatever nowadays, and for good reason. As for wortox, not needing food or healing as much as other players isnt that big of a deal considering those are some of the easiest things to get in dst, also at least with jellybeans you dont need to be constantly dropping souls mid fight. you can spam souls to travel long distances quickly, but you're going to run out extremely fast, so excluding teleporting over the occasional gap i dont think its very viable. Also, why use telepoofs for invulnerability when you can just... kite.

I don't understand what you mean about the first part most people would still say those are OP chars. Maybe not so much Wicker anymore since the RWYS update but Wolf and WX for sure right? Your counter points on Wortox i feel are more so about him not being your playstyle i think. You can't deny the power of his ability just because you don't like using it. It's not about how easy it is to get food or souls it's about how i prefer to obtain my hunger and health items. You don't have to drop souls in most boss fights with the mob + full inventory strat so they auto drop. If you set up bee + bramble stations around the map you can make routes for telepoofing that save a lot of time. Lastly there's no advantage to poofing instead of kiting it's just really cool lol. Like i said it's more a playstyle thing i think.

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

"most players" die during winter/ live off meatballs and berry farms/ have never interacted with ruins or even caves content at all, if you legitimately want to improve at the game I'd recommend doing the exact opposite of what "most players" do and in 90% of situations you'll achieve better results

now I'm bored so I'll explain why everything you said about wortox is wrong

in reality no, the most op characters to the general community are the ones with flashiest upsides and/or who struggle the least soloing raid bosses or ruins rushing

also wx wicker wolfgang power trio was made up by edgy rick, none of those characters are particularly powerful

let's look at wortox's hunger downside:
a wilson would need 35 meaty stews to survive for one year, which can be farmed in about a day with pig and volt goat farms

wortox gains half as much hunger from eating food so he has 3 options:
1. live off normal food, so he has to eat 70 meaty stews per year instead (waste of time, essentially makes wortox have a x2 hunger drain modifier)
2. supplement normal food with souls, so with 35 meaty stew per year he would still need 140 souls on top of that (waste of time)
3. live exclusively off of souls, meaning he would need to eat 280 souls per year

for the last option, not only would you need to kill 280 mobs in a single day, you straight up can't because souls only stack up to 20 and you can't store them in any way; keeping live animals is an extremely inefficient way to get hunger (even for wortox despite his hunger penalty on other foods) and they can't be comfortable bundled because opening bundles releases all the live animals on the floor

to add more salt to injury, any soul used for food is a soul not used for soul hopping or healing

there is no way to circumvent this downside and it constantly wastes time so it's not "meaningless" lmfao, but of course we need to look at his upsides next

living off souls is the equivalent of living off butterfly wings, seeds and berries

also not only do no characters need any healing food at all because damage is avoidable in this game, some very good hunger dishes like honey ham and dragonpie also restore a decent chunk of health as well without extra effort from the player

also healing becomes trivial if you farm bee queen because jellybeans restore absurd amounts of hp, don't spoil and you get a truckload of them with every bee queen kill which can be every 20 days

this is completely false, a myth spread by edgy rick, and you can easily verify this in game right now

have a wilson run a certain distance and then have wortox use soul hops to traverse the same distance, then have wortox kill an amount of mobs equivalent to the amount of souls used

unless you have an extremely specific bee or spider setup to get your souls wortox will actually end up slower than wilson, and even with a perfect setup you have to keep in mind wortox can't speed up soul hops with a cane, road or a beefalo, meaning using soul hops for fast movement is a waste of time at all stages of the game

the only legitimate use case of soul hops for movement is crossing gaps in the caves since you can't build boat bridges there but even that is completely worldgen dependent

this is useless because kiting exists and the soul hop animation is too long, the only fight where this can actually save time is deerclops because of its long range and the amount of souls it drops on death but all that really saves you is 2 football helmets and if you struggle to have a stable source of armor after 4 hours of gameplay (which is when the first deerclops spawns) you shouldn't be trying to argue that a character is op

there is no difference between 100 and 200 max health, lower health only means you have to start healing sooner if you're tanking but tanking is almost never worth it and even that aspect is invalidated by jellybeans, just kite and wear armor and max health doesn't exist

I agree, wortox, warly and wigfrid are all very good options for encouraging groups of noobs to fight raid bosses and that's why people think they're op in coop

fun fact, with enough people you don't need healing for any raid boss because they die extremely fast

1. dark swords are almost always a waste of time to make over ham bats for bosses, their strength late game comes the fact that you can just carry living logs and nightmare fuel to craft them on the fly, but if you're fighting dragonfly on a pub just ask a wigfrid to make you spears

2. how does he farm nightmare fuel any better than other characters? souls only take away a minuscule amount of sanity, every character can eat green caps/ repeatedly go through wormholes/ stand in complete darkness lol

you have a long way to go if you think you can talk for "experienced players"

no

no wood gathering with pigs early game means it takes longer to set up fire farms, pig farms and bee farms, aka actually good food sources instead of souls that you can't even stockpile and only wortox can eat

I don't know what you're talking about lol i once lived an entire year with my Woodie friend by only killing treeguards and eating their souls, and going insane form souls and fighting shadows, and making more darkswords from the treguards and shadows to continue the endless cycle. It was stupid easy but also really fun. You can sit here and explain on paper why i might be wrong and fair enough lol, but how are you going to tell me that a character that can live off of tree people forever isn't OP?

Alright maybe he isn't OP and i honestly enjoyed reading that i learned a lot. I still love wortox though i'm a huge Darksouls fanboy and the character clicks xD
 

It's also worth mentioning that i play a lot of pubs so that might explain some things. There's a lot of newer players and playing optimal goes out the window. I just like being a support char i eat souls so the others get have more food, i heal them and craft them dark swords etc it's rewarding. I get what you mean though his usefulness even in this aspect falls off after the first year.

[Third Porkus]

10 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

11 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Alright maybe he isn't OP and i honestly enjoyed reading that i learned a lot. I still love wortox though i'm a huge Darksouls fanboy and the character clicks xD

you should play wheeler then

 

[LonelySkeleton]

That's DLC right? I never played SW or Hamlet but thanks for the suggestion i might now

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, LonelySkeleton said:

To answer that we first need to look at why people consider certain character to be OP.
Take the power trio of WX Wicker and Wolfgang for example, the reason people would say they are OP is because they have very strong upsides but meaningless downsides. With that in mind let's look at Wortox.

His downsides in practice are no different than Wolfgangs, you need more food and lose more sanity than other characters. Needing more food and being lower on sanity on average are both meaningless downsides and half the argument for both characters being OP
Now for his upsides: He doesn't even need hunger or healing foods for 90% of the gameplay loop. He has the fastest movement speed in the game upwards of 300% faster than Wolf on average. His telepoof also grants invincibility frames against most attacks in the game meaning he doesn't even need armor for 75% of fights. Base stats are high too the dude is a powerhouse solo, and only becomes stronger in coop as he negates any need for healing foods for the entire team while simultaneously providing them with darkswords the best weapon in the game. Seriously his only true downside is sanity which is meaningless to experienced players. He plays very similarly to Wolfgang in that sense you're just choosing an unlimited AoE healing over 2x damage output.

Lmk what you think. He doesn't need armor or food for 75-90% of the game, has the unlimited ability to teleport across screen or through enemy attacks, and when paired with a team makes most boss fights a guaranteed win as nobody can die. Is that OP?

Edit: I didn't even mention hostility from Pigs or Bunnymen as that's a non-factor you can still farm them easily it's not a downside imo. And you shouldn't be using Pigs to farm wood either that's what Bearger exists for. But if you really want to negate that "downside" completely you can just use the disguise that Wurt makes.

I kinda move Wortox lower on the op character list simply because Webber's nurses and horde mechanic kinda do what he does but better and at the same time much like characters who need food and healing he still has to kill things to get that healing/food no matter how easy so he is technically still working for his powers and there's no point where he doesn't have to.

1 hour ago, LonelySkeleton said:

I don't know what you're talking about lol i once lived an entire year with my Woodie friend by only killing treeguards and eating their souls, and going insane form souls and fighting shadows, and making more darkswords from the treguards and shadows to continue the endless cycle. It was stupid easy but also really fun. You can sit here and explain on paper why i might be wrong and fair enough lol, but how are you going to tell me that a character that can live off of tree people forever isn't OP?

Anyone can farm nightmare fuel just as fast by using Wormholes Arguably tho if you want to insanity farm Walter would probaly be the best choice with his low end sanity drain on the go. Wx isn't really op compared to the current cast's level of power his only real advantages are sustain in the ruins and the speed boost from overcharge.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

I dont think that wortox is op but is true that for playing with noob friends is a beast since you heal aoe meanwhile your noob friends dont know healing dishes or having telepufs to go faster uf they get in trouble, but that is it. Is a great support but with veterans it just save time in certain momenta via wasting time to gather which makes him balanced 

[JazzyGames]

I know we've drifted waaaaay away from OP but I couldn't help myself.

The soul hop argument assumes that you have to go out of your way to kill mobs. When I'm exploring early on I'll get my soul count close to max and then soul hop when I see a trash mob like a butterfly or spider so that I can quickly replenish the spent soul. Wortox really shines when you are trying to jump into an adjacent biome early on and the land branches would add considerable time for a normal character to exit certain biomes before exploring others. Let's start at the end of a peninsula and race Wilson to the next biome.

[LonelySkeleton]

13 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

you have a long way to go if you think you can talk for "experienced players"

Believe it or not i actually have 1250 hours played lol that's mostly blind though learning by myself. You develop some bad habits that way it's helpful to hear another player's perspective or even have them break down the math for you. So thanks guys for the deep dive on my favorite character i learned a lot

 

41 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

I know we've drifted waaaaay away from OP but I couldn't help myself.

The soul hop argument assumes that you have to go out of your way to kill mobs. When I'm exploring early on I'll get my soul count close to max and then soul hop when I see a trash mob like a butterfly or spider so that I can quickly replenish the spent soul. Wortox really shines when you are trying to jump into an adjacent biome early on and the land branches would add considerable time for a normal character to exit certain biomes before exploring others. Let's start at the end of a peninsula and race Wilson to the next biome.

Hey Jazzy aren't you the early bird. Nice running into you here i love your content. I appreciate you sticking up for Wortox heh but these guys have solid points as well. It seems my perspective of the character was mainly influenced by playing him in pubs for so long as that's where he shines. That and my solo world where i haven't had to cook in like 1000 days, i kinda forgot how much he actually eats in the long term because i was so stocked up on bundled food. So yea playing 1 year pubs and very end game solo with him i definitely overlooked his downsides. Seems balanced. 

[LonelySkeleton]

On 7/1/2021 at 5:45 PM, Guille6785 said:

"most players" die during winter/ live off meatballs and berry farms/ have never interacted with ruins or even caves content at all, if you legitimately want to improve at the game I'd recommend doing the exact opposite of what "most players" do and in 90% of situations you'll achieve better results

now I'm bored so I'll explain why everything you said about wortox is wrong

in reality no, the most op characters to the general community are the ones with flashiest upsides and/or who struggle the least soloing raid bosses or ruins rushing

also wx wicker wolfgang power trio was made up by edgy rick, none of those characters are particularly powerful

let's look at wortox's hunger downside:
a wilson would need 35 meaty stews to survive for one year, which can be farmed in about a day with pig and volt goat farms

wortox gains half as much hunger from eating food so he has 3 options:
1. live off normal food, so he has to eat 70 meaty stews per year instead (waste of time, essentially makes wortox have a x2 hunger drain modifier)
2. supplement normal food with souls, so with 35 meaty stew per year he would still need 140 souls on top of that (waste of time)
3. live exclusively off of souls, meaning he would need to eat 280 souls per year

for the last option, not only would you need to kill 280 mobs in a single day, you straight up can't because souls only stack up to 20 and you can't store them in any way; keeping live animals is an extremely inefficient way to get hunger (even for wortox despite his hunger penalty on other foods) and they can't be comfortably bundled because opening bundles releases all the live animals on the floor

to add more insult to injury, any soul used for food is a soul not used for soul hopping or healing, and eating souls will constantly drain your sanity if you only live off of them

there is no way to circumvent this downside and it constantly wastes time so it's not "meaningless" lmfao, but of course we need to look at his upsides next

living off souls is the equivalent of living off butterfly wings, seeds and berries

also not only do no characters need any healing food at all because damage is avoidable in this game, some very good hunger dishes like honey ham and dragonpie also restore a decent chunk of health as well without extra effort from the player

also healing becomes trivial if you farm bee queen because jellybeans restore absurd amounts of hp, don't spoil and you get a truckload of them with every bee queen kill which can be every 20 days

this is completely false, a myth spread by edgy rick, and you can easily verify this in game right now

have a wilson run a certain distance and then have wortox use soul hops to traverse the same distance, then have wortox kill an amount of mobs equivalent to the amount of souls used

unless you have an extremely specific bee or spider setup to get your souls wortox will actually end up slower than wilson, and even with a perfect setup you have to keep in mind wortox can't speed up soul hops with a cane, road or a beefalo, meaning using soul hops for fast movement is a waste of time at all stages of the game

the only legitimate use case of soul hops for movement is crossing gaps in the caves since you can't build boat bridges there but even that is completely worldgen dependent

this is useless because kiting exists and the soul hop animation is too long, the only fight where this can actually save time is deerclops because of its long range and the amount of souls it drops on death but all that really saves you is 2 football helmets and if you struggle to have a stable source of armor after 4 hours of gameplay (which is when the first deerclops spawns) you shouldn't be trying to argue that a character is op

there is no difference between 100 and 200 max health, lower health only means you have to start healing sooner if you're tanking but tanking is almost never worth it and even that aspect is invalidated by jellybeans, just kite and wear armor and max health doesn't exist

I agree, wortox, warly and wigfrid are all very good options for encouraging groups of noobs to fight raid bosses and that's why people think they're op in coop

fun fact, with enough people you don't need healing to facetank any raid boss because they die extremely fast

1. dark swords are almost always a waste of time to make over ham bats for bosses, their strength late game comes the fact that you can just carry living logs and nightmare fuel to craft them on the fly, but if you're fighting dragonfly on a pub just ask a wigfrid to make you spears

2. how does he farm nightmare fuel any better than other characters? souls only take away a minuscule amount of sanity for strict nightmare fuel farming, every character can eat green caps/ repeatedly go through wormholes/ stand in complete darkness lol

you have a long way to go if you think you can talk for "experienced players"

no

no wood gathering with pigs early game means it takes longer to set up fire farms, pig farms and bee farms, aka actually good food sources instead of souls that you can't even stockpile and only wortox can eat

Hey Guille i was just curious how the belt of hunger and/or funcaps would affect Wortox? Worth it or naw? More so just curious to know the math behind it. Also about the needing 70 stews per year thing and how it's a "waste of time" because it would take 2 days to get instead of the 1 days it takes to get 35 stews for other characters... Just thought it's worth mentioning i have a dev graveyard pig farm with almost 100 houses that i farm twice a year for my meats i get around 200 if i remember and that lasts me almost the year as Wortox. Basically 1 day getting food for the year and then any souls (like from my bramble + bee hives set around the map) are just for hopping around at that point because it's fun . Is 2x hunger drain optimal? Naw but in endgame it's not an issue so i can focus on enjoying my fav character without that downside.

[Guille6785]

32 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Hey Guille i was just curious how the belt of hunger and/or funcaps would affect Wortox? Worth it or naw? More so just curious to know the math behind it. Also about the needing 70 stews per year thing and how it's a "waste of time" because it would take 2 days to get instead of the 1 days it takes to get 35 stews for other characters... Just thought it's worth mentioning i have a dev graveyard pig farm with almost 100 houses that i farm twice a year for my meats i get around 200 if i remember and that lasts me almost the year as Wortox. Basically 1 day getting food for the year and then any souls (like from my bramble + bee hives set around the map) are just for hopping around at that point because it's fun . Is 2x hunger drain optimal? Naw but in endgame it's not an issue so i can focus on enjoying my fav character without that downside.

it's not the worst downside ever with extremely good food farms but you have to really ask yourself if his fairly minor upsides are worth it, wortox is a perfectly balanced character imo

[LonelySkeleton]

9 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

it's not the worst downside ever with extremely good food farms but you have to really ask yourself if his fairly minor upsides are worth it, wortox is a perfectly balanced character imo

yea i'm realizing i enjoy Wortox more for pubs and his actual design more than his ability. Lately for my solo world i have just been playing Wormwood instead i really dig the perma speedboost. Bloom being restricted to Spring was the reason i never played him before but that farming update changed things. I appreciate the knowledge!

On that note if you have any Wormwood tips to share i'm happy to learn.

[Masked Koopa]

I can see why someone as focused on speedrunning as edgy rick would call wortox OP, because he's pretty damn good for speedruns, with all the ones I've taken a look at that arent rushing bee queen using him. 

But when you look at him in a wider context id say the most powerful trait he has is the AOE heal, which really just serves to make bee queen a total cakewalk, and make life a wee bit easier for wurt warly and wormwood. 

Wortox actually stands out to be as a character who needs more traits, as his perks are all replaceable via items, making him a bit of an underwhelming character later on in the game, where most other characters at least have a couple of traits that carry over nicely into the late game. 

I'd like to see him be able to perform pranks to restore his sanity (since that seems to be a big issue for a lot of newer players I see using him), as well as get the QOL fixes relating to beefalo (healing and soul hopping), and some other bonus of sorts. His downside of effectively permanent 2 times hunger drain is actually one of the more hefty downsides for a lot of players, although once you know what meaty stew is it's obviously not that much trouble.

[Cheggf]

On 7/1/2021 at 5:40 PM, LonelySkeleton said:

Take the power trio of WX Wicker and Wolfgang for example, the reason people would say they are OP is because they have very strong upsides but meaningless downsides.

No, the reason people say WX, Wicker, and Wolfgang are overpowered is literally because people say WX, Wicker, and Wolfgang are overpowered. They see someone else say it so they repeat the mantra.

Their upsides (except for Wickerbottom's) are not very strong, especially not in a post-rework world. Wolfgang is falling a little behind and WX is falling way behind.

Their downsides being meaningless is meaningless, because everyone's downsides are meaningless. -25% damage to shadows, automatically transforming once every 3 hours (although you can also avoid doing that), needing to be a little more careful in combat, not being able to eat raw bluecaps, not being able to befriend pigs (which basically no one does anyways), crafting sometimes maybe making you a little hungry.

Honestly Wolfgang needing 1.5-3x as much food and Wortox needing 2x as much food + having the worst sanity are some of the most impactful downsides in the game. There's only a few characters with worse downsides. And if you're allowing character switches then WX arguably has the worst downside in the game. Character switching is super OP, and he loses his gosh darn gears when he does it! I guess it's not too big of a deal if you just stockpile a ton of gears, but if somebody is good enough to stockpile a ton of gears then they're probably good enough to play with any downsides no problem.

On 7/1/2021 at 4:36 PM, Dextops said:

how is wortox op?

Because he makes the first 20 days of the game a lot easier. You can go through them without any armor. Better players see that easier healing is useful but not that big of an upside considering how easy healing already is (bluecaps, potatoes, pierogi, spider glands, jellybeans, butterfly wings, bat bat, sleep, etc). They'll also notice how much faster they're going through food, especially considering the fact that as you get later and later in the game fighting becomes less and less of a thing while basekeeping becomes more and more, weakening Wortox's strengths while exacerbating his downsides.