some moon nonsense

[ArubaroBeefalo]

With the new updates we have know more about the moon, that big rock in the sky that affects The Constant in many ways. This has bring some incoherence which the old mechanics arround the moon. The moon in DS affects certain creatures that are also affected by monter meat such as pigs or woodie (in dst full moon doesnt affect woby for some reason), also it affects flowers converting them into evil flowers (a nightmere fuel source), converting mushrooms into mushtrees and awaking pig and merm heads on sticks (which drops nightmere fuel when hammered).

In DST we have lost some of these effects like flowers to evil flowers and mushrooms into mushtrees but others remains like how full moon awakes the merm and pig heads which have sense with the new lore about the moon having reviving powers but i see as an incoherence that those drop nightmere fuel (gestals are minions from the moon and hates nightmere fuel for some reason).

Why, if the moon isnt a source of nightmere fuel, it has these effects? klei just changed their mind about the moon when they though about return of them bringing some incoherence by mistake? is it intended because we dont know all the details about the moon lore?

In other hand, Hamlet exists and seems like an experiment game that have a lot of lore about dont starve but, again, the moon has a different role than in dst. A permanent blood full moon will announce the arrival of the aporkalipsis among the ancient herald (a nightmere fuel creature that for some reason can summon pig ghosts (maybe he retains his victims from elder wars)). Some users have thought that maybe isnt the moon power but the lack of it which makes the aporkalipsis work like that (it will explain why is red due the lack of light (the less energetic light a body reflect the closer to the infrared will be the light) but since we dont know the details i think is good to take hamlet into account

And by last but not least, the 3 moon altars. How 2 of the 3 altars are in the constant and 1 in the moon? who bring them to land from the space? Did the ancients went to the space? who was the skeleton near a hot spring+bath bomb set piece? because, even if we have the 3 altars, we couldnt put them on the craters if wasnt because a piece of moon fell into the ocean

[Well-met]

Most of these would probably involve a term called "retcon"

I doubt Klei had the moon shenanigans all planned out by the time of DS1 development

[HowlVoid]

When dst got a new writer a lot of stuff got shaken up.

As I've said before... Kinda wish we were told what was retconed as the story before dst has gotten... messy. I'll wait and see until the end before I complain too much though, haha. 

I think a lot of stuff will be explained when we find out what the portal in the archives is for.

[HellHeater]

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

it affects flowers converting them into evil flowers (a nightmere fuel source), converting mushrooms into mushtrees and awaking pig and merm heads on sticks (which drops nightmere fuel when hammered). 

Reminds me electricity in physics 

Think of this 

Assume nightmare stuff is negative charge and the moon is positive charge otherwise this is gonna be really confusing

When moons effects are fully in there just like electricity in physics moon (in this case its just a metal ball which is positively charged)  pulls the electrons to the top from the bottom and electrons which is nightmare stuff is fully focused on top and thats what we see

You are gonna ask then why isnt caves get enlightened if negative charge is pulled from there 

Its because caves are too big it doesnt matter i think

No electricity is transferred as long as the two parts dont touch to each other so everything reverses when full moon goes away 

In my mind this makes sense a lot but its a real question if i managed to explain this over text 

Teaching is not my thing :/

[Dextops]

Just now, HellHeater said:

Reminds me electricity in physics 

Think of this 

Assume nightmare stuff is negative charge and the moon is positive charge otherwise this is gonna be really confusing

When moons effects are fully in there just like electricity in physics moon (in this case its just a metal ball which is positively charged)  pulls the electrons to the top from the bottom and electrons which is nightmare stuff is fully focused on top and thats what we see

You are gonna ask then why isnt caves get enlightened if negative charge is pulled from there 

Its because caves are too big it doesnt matter i think

No electricity is transferred as long as the two parts dont touch to each other so everything reverses when full moon goes away 

In my mind this makes sense a lot but its a real question if i managed to explain this over text 

Teaching is not my thing :/

gonna pretend i understood that

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, HellHeater said:

Reminds me electricity in physics 

Think of this 

Assume nightmare stuff is negative charge and the moon is positive charge otherwise this is gonna be really confusing

When moons effects are fully in there just like electricity in physics moon (in this case its just a metal ball which is positively charged)  pulls the electrons to the top from the bottom and electrons which is nightmare stuff is fully focused on top and thats what we see

You are gonna ask then why isnt caves get enlightened if negative charge is pulled from there 

Its because caves are too big it doesnt matter i think

No electricity is transferred as long as the two parts dont touch to each other so everything reverses when full moon goes away 

In my mind this makes sense a lot but its a real question if i managed to explain this over text 

Teaching is not my thing :/

that asumming that it works like a charge and not like energy like heat which will tend to be in equilibrium

[Notecja]

10 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

In DST we have lost some of these effects like flowers to evil flowers and mushrooms into mushtrees but others remains like how full moon awakes the merm and pig heads which have sense with the new lore about the moon having reviving powers but i see as an incoherence that those drop nightmere fuel (gestals are minions from the moon and hates nightmere fuel for some reason).

Because that is a nightmare fuel to see dead rotting head (with flies) staring at you with open eyes during full moon... Dead one is bad enough. Good they don't whisper.

To some level I think it sort-of coming from character imagination, object is just a mere medium for that.

[Tim S.]

Haha, during the last week I've been working on this thought exactly. I will post the whole of it coherently when I get to it, but in short, here's my speculations about moon nonsense:

First of all, some of it is just retcon. The best example is the Moon affecting entities in Caves in DS1, which obviously goes against DST-Lore. However considering how selective Klei is about what to change from DS1 to DST (especially some peculiar quotes), I think Klei might have a bigger idea in mind, which somehow ties Nightmare Fuel together with Lunar Magic. Either that or they didn't wanna change the whole game and just went along with it. 

Secondly, I think we should reconsider our idea of Nightmare Fuel and Lunar Magic(/regular Ghosts). The concept of "ectoplasm" is a huge connection between those two. Assuming that the mentioned quotes aren't about the biological ectoplasm, both Nightmare Fuel, and Ghosts are described as "ectoplasmic" in nature, I.e. relating to otherworldly souls of transcended(/deceased) individuals. 

Shadow Magic:
"Ectoplasmic residue." - Nightmare Fuel description
"There are low, but increasing levels of vapors containing ectoplasmic residue.", - Wickerbottom, exam. Thulecite Medaillon (Warning phase)
"This seems to be an interesting, ectoplasmic residue-bearing variety of ziosite." - Wickerbottom, exam. Thulecite

Ghosts:
"You got ectoplasm on my handle!!", - Lucy, getting haunted
"This provides a corporeal anchor for the ectoplasmic configuration.", - Wickerbottom, exam. Telltale heart
 "It's emitting a strange energy." - Wickerbottom, exam. Abigails Flower (Medium) (could technically be Shadow Magic too)
"Strange waves of energy are emanating from it." - Wagstaff, exam. Lucy the Axe
"Abigail's ectoplasm..." - Noun variable used in world creation (could technically be Shadow Magic too)

Also, both Nightmare Fuel and Lunar Magic are able to possess living and (moreso) non-living entities and provide them with a mind/sentience. 
(See Birchnut Treeguard, [Regular Treeguards], Evil Flowers, Dark Petals, Totally Normal Tree, Mush Gnome, Saladmander, Carrat, Pig Heads, Merm Heads)

The possession of Birchnut Treeguards, Regular Treeguards, Evil Flowers, Dark Petals, Pig Heads and Merm Heads can be achieved too by haunting them as a Player Ghost.

Interestingly, Ghosts/Ectoplasmic beings can situationally be "anchored" to this plane:

"Poor dear. %s needs a heart to anchor him to this plane." - Wickerbottom, exam. Player Ghost
"This provides a corporeal anchor for the ectoplasmic configuration.", - Wickerbottom, exam. Telltale heart


(Notice the heart in the resurrection animation)

Similarly, the Ancient Fuelweaver, an entitiy consisting entirely of Nightmare Fuel/Ectoplasm can be anchored (or summoned?) to this plane too using a shadow heart.


Regarding the nature of Lunar and Shadow-Magic, it always felt weird to me how both sources of energy could apparently stem from the same source (which, judging from the Ancients symbols, still resembles the moon. Possibly a connection?)



If it weren't enough, it's still weird how Maxwell is seemingly "confused" about Them, and how the Lunar energy appears similar to the Shadows he served. 

"This powerful energy... I've seen it before." - Maxwell, exam. Inactive Celestial Tribute
"This power, it feels like... but it couldn't be..." - Maxwell, exam. Alterguardian Phase 3 Dead Orb
"I don't know what to believe. All this time, I thought that They were..." - Maxwell, exam. Alterguardian Phase 3 Dead
"Impossible... I thought I was privy to all of Their secrets." - Maxwell, exam. Distilled Knowledge




So all considered, what if Shadow and Lunar Magic stem from the same source? Or what I'm thinking, what if Shadow Magic is corrupted Lunar Magic? Wendy C. brought up a great point in that other Thread about Nightmare Fuel linked to hate and negative emotion. I like that idea.

Let's take a look at possessed entities:

[Not dropping Nightmare Fuel:]
Treeguards
      - Not fueled by hate, but by motivation to keep the forest alive. Aggressive against treechoppers, passive towards everyone else.
Totally Normal Tree
      - Passive Entity just chillin'
Mush Gnome
      - Passive Creature just living it's life
Saladmander
      - Passive Creature just living it's life
Carrat
      - Passive Creature just living it's life
Ancient Guardian
      - Not fueled by hate, but motivated by loyalty and purpose to defend the Ancient Key. Fuel-Corrupted merely due to proximity.

[Dropping Nightmare Fuel:]
Birchnut Treeguards
      - Unlike Pine Treeguards, hateful creatures attacking every nearby creature. Unable to be reasoned with.
Shadow Splumonkey
      - Greedy lil lads. Fuel-Corrupted due to proximity, but absolutely drenched in Fuel (possibly due to their greedy, negative nature)
Merm/Pig Head
      - Pigs and Merms are characterized by their relentless race-hate towards each other. 
Reanimated Skeleton
      - I assume the Ancient King is rein"carn"ated in the Reanimated Skeleton. The Ancient King was tempted by Shadow Magic and its prospects and was corrupted by pride (and possibly greed).
Evil Flowers/Dark Petals
      - Idk, apparantly flowers are terrible creatures full of hate and spite.






Soo in short I think moon nonsense might make sense. Thoughts?

Edit: I mean, Lunar Magic seems closely related to dreams. Would make sense for corrupted/bad dreams to be Nightmares 

[Cassielu]

Detector designed by the ancients look for celestial objects in this order: Sanctum, then Altar, then Tribute. Coincidentally, this is also the order in which the Celestial Champion uses them. That might suggest that there's some kind of  order between three lunar altars.

So I imagined a story like this：The Sanctum was the first celestial objects to arrive in The Constant, and when the ancients abandoned their belief in the moon and turned to the darkness, they buried the Sanctum underground and somehow halting the progress of the celestial arrival.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Cassielu said:

The ancients designed Detector to look for celestial objects in this order: Sanctum, then Altar, then Tribute. Coincidentally, this is also the order in which the Celestial Champion uses them. That might suggest that there's some kind of  order between three lunar altars.

So I imagined a story like this：The Sanctum was the first alien to arrive in The Constant, and when the ancients abandoned their belief in the moon and turned to the darkness, they buried the Sanctum underground and somehow halting the progress of the celestial arrival.

Good one but how they used it? It needs to be plugged in a moon fissure which is little far 

Is what triggers my curiosity the most. We can use them because the moon fell. Also there is a human skeleton in the moon

I need answeres idjfjwksnf

[Mooagain]

35 minutes ago, Tim S. said:

 "It's emitting a strange energy." - Wickerbottom, exam. Abigails Flower (Medium) (could technically be Shadow Magic too)

That's a strange the case, since the flower is crafted with nightmare fuel and a mourning glory. The nightmare fuel is an obvious shadow magic thing, but based on the colour scheme and the connection of ghosts and the moon it's possible that Abigale's flower is some kind of fusion of the two. 

37 minutes ago, Tim S. said:

The Ancient King was tempted by Shadow Magic and its prospects and was corrupted by pride (and possibly greed).

He was at one point, but based on his quotes he seems very not corrupted anymore. I'd guess he was using the shadows more than they were using him during the fight with the players, especially considering what happens when we win. 

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Also there is a human skeleton in the moon

That could be Wagstaff's, if he can appear in the moon storm because of the lunar energy I'd guess he can also show up on the surface of the moon. If WX and Wormwood can leave skeletons than I don't see why he couldn't. 

[Cassielu]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Good one but how they used it? It needs to be plugged in a moon fissure which is little far 

Is what triggers my curiosity the most. We can use them because the moon fell. Also there is a human skeleton in the moon

I need answeres idjfjwksnf

Maybe the hermit island, or maybe the ancients were given enough knowledge to build a replacement for the fissure, or maybe the moon planned to drop the island with celestial fissure later.

 

[W0l0l0]

My question is what's the deal with crabby hermit? Did she fall recently with the moon chunk? That's quite a rough ride, and makes me wonder how she dealt with the lunar....ness that she clearly avoids when on the moon. Did the fissures only open recently? When did Crab King arrive? Could it be possible that they've been here for a very long time? Does Maxwell have some sort of speech impediment when talking about anything interesting? Are there other crabs that are corrupted on the moon, perhaps even more so due to their proximity? Sorry for such a flood of questions, I'm super curious.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

22 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

My question is what's the deal with crabby hermit? Did she fall recently with the moon chunk? That's quite a rough ride, and makes me wonder how she dealt with the lunar....ness that she clearly avoids when on the moon. Did the fissures only open recently? When did Crab King arrive? Could it be possible that they've been here for a very long time? Does Maxwell have some sort of speech impediment when talking about anything interesting? Are there other crabs that are corrupted on the moon, perhaps even more so due to their proximity? Sorry for such a flood of questions, I'm super curious.

I think she started to live there after the moon fell. 

My head canon is that the moon fell and many time after (maybe months) the survivors were prepare for exploring the ocean.

Maybe in the moon there is oceans and seas but i think she lived in the ocean with CK and take the island as home. She bringed with her some shells to plug the lunar fissures so she can live there without dangers.

I guess there is more crab people living in the sea (will we get more crab characters/mobs/npcs?)

I would like to know the answere for the question you have formulated

[Cosmodog]

The shells she uses to plug the fissures are cute I want those! klei should have a build for it. 

[minespatch]

3 hours ago, Cosmodog said:

The shells she uses to plug the fissures are cute I want those! klei should have a build for it. 

I'm shocked the devs didn't do that yet. Should be a reward from Pearl.

[Nogard78]

2 hours ago, minespatch said:

I'm shocked the devs didn't do that yet. Should be a reward from Pearl.

Or from Crab King, it would give us more reasons to defeat him.

[Szczuku]

9 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

My question is what's the deal with crabby hermit?

She's an enigma. Says that she didn't notice gestalts untill she has already settled there. Talks about how she used to have flower garden and berry bushes. All of those things mean that she (and crab king I assume) had basically built an entire home with gardens and hooks after the lunar islands were created and that enough time has passed for those things to decay. I guess either time works very differently in the Constant or years have passed between Turn of Tides and She Sells Seashells canonically.

Perhaps they lived gestalt-free for a while and then Moon's influence affected them by forcing Crab King to go and find the altar piece. Since then everything withered away, Pearl aged, CK mutated and went insane.

Either way it seems that those 'sudden events happening in dst's lore' are actually taking years. As in the ocean becoming sailable took years after Moon's piece landed.

How else do you explain Crabs' story arc without wondering how come the survivord didn't find them b4 hermit island was abandoned.

[LinknAllie]

11 hours ago, Tim S. said:

Shadow Magic:
"Ectoplasmic residue." - Nightmare Fuel description
"There are low, but increasing levels of vapors containing ectoplasmic residue.", - Wickerbottom, exam. Thulecite Medaillon (Warning phase)
"This seems to be an interesting, ectoplasmic residue-bearing variety of ziosite." - Wickerbottom, exam. Thulecite

Ghosts:
"You got ectoplasm on my handle!!", - Lucy, getting haunted
"This provides a corporeal anchor for the ectoplasmic configuration.", - Wickerbottom, exam. Telltale heart
 "It's emitting a strange energy." - Wickerbottom, exam. Abigails Flower (Medium) (could technically be Shadow Magic too)
"Strange waves of energy are emanating from it." - Wagstaff, exam. Lucy the Axe
"Abigail's ectoplasm..." - Noun variable used in world creation (could technically be Shadow Magic too)

 

"That captivating dark fuel is concentrated in these stones" - Wagstaff examining Thulecite.

"Emitting a psychokinetic energy" - Wagstaff examining Abigail's flower. 

[Wendy C.]

18 hours ago, Tim S. said:

Wendy C. brought up a great point in that other Thread about Nightmare Fuel linked to hate and negative emotion. I like that idea.

Hee-hee~

[Styrex]

Speaking of strange floating men in form of ghosts and ectoplasmic connections here and there, i'm here to throw little more nonsense to the table

 

Spoiler

to me it always seemed ~funny, but for reason

EDIT: even more nonsense just in case you haven't noticed that small similarity in between (and i'm not sure if i had a chance to post it anywhere else)

Spoiler

  
and there it is
still kind of interesting i must say, even though it's a pure nonsense(х2) 

small triangles at the bottom also remind me of obelisks

Spoiler

not sure though, if actual triangles aren't just symbols pointing upwards 

but that would be a stretch anyways
l'm just putting here something i want to show you to stimulate your own ideas

not writing theories yet, but whilst searching for clues in ancient murals and whole lot of another sources there would be a lot, i mean...
A LOT of funny or just weird things. Just like that i've pointed earlier

and there is a second version, i just kept messing around with sprites and that's what i got, not serious at all

Spoiler

 

 

[Tim S.]

23 hours ago, Tim S. said:

(which, judging from the Ancients symbols, still resembles the moon. Possibly a connection?)

On 6/19/2021 at 6:28 PM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Some users have thought that maybe isnt the moon power but the lack of it which makes the aporkalipsis work like that 

Adding to this: 
I might be wrong and they didn't explicitly depict the moon as we know it. Maybe they interpreted the dark side of the moon as it's own entity, as such a thing "consuming" the Full Moon and spitting it out every now and then.



"The... "moon"... has retreated for now.", - Maxwell, Moondial (New Moon)

Given how the lack of Moonlight/New Moon(/also Aporkalypse) affects Shadow Magic, it would make sense for them to assume that the dark side of the moon is the "source" of Nightmare Fuel and Shadow Magic (although I myself still think there's a great eldritch behemoth beneath the constant). Hence their escape into the caves, where they felt closest to their shadowy idol.



As such some (frustrated/hateful?) ancients were depicted as bearing the new moon in themselves.





So maybe the Moon isn't depicted in the Gateway as I've previously assumed, maybe just the "consuming" New Moon(/Dark side of the moon) is depicted, symbolically for something else entirely..

[Styrex]

14 minutes ago, Tim S. said:

As such some (frustrated/hateful?) ancients were depicted as bearing the new moon in themselves.

While i'm still here, i must admit that this particular segment of murals also has something eye-catching
there are numbers

Spoiler

we have 1, 2 and 6 respectfully

And the thing is that they appear only once and it's unclear for what actual purpose. Do we know something about it? Did i miss some ARGs? 
Correct me please, if you know more. I feel free to ask here because i couldn't find any fitting threads for that

[Tim S.]

2 minutes ago, Styrex said:

And the thing is that they appear only once and it's unclear for what actual purpose. Do we know something about it? Did i miss some ARGs? 
Correct me please, if you know more. I feel free to ask here because i couldn't find any fitting threads for that

As far as I know, the numbers are actually 1, 2 and 7 (just for the first, the second and the seventh ancient in row) and were used to decypher the Metheus Puzzle

[ArubaroBeefalo]

25 minutes ago, Tim S. said:

Adding to this: 
I might be wrong and they didn't explicitly depict the moon as we know it. Maybe they interpreted the dark side of the moon as it's own entity, as such a thing "consuming" the Full Moon and spitting it out every now and then.



"The... "moon"... has retreated for now.", - Maxwell, Moondial (New Moon)

Given how the lack of Moonlight/New Moon(/also Aporkalypse) affects Shadow Magic, it would make sense for them to assume that the dark side of the moon is the "source" of Nightmare Fuel and Shadow Magic (although I myself still think there's a great eldritch behemoth beneath the constant). Hence their escape into the caves, where they felt closest to their shadowy idol.



As such some (frustrated/hateful?) ancients were depicted as bearing the new moon in themselves.





So maybe the Moon isn't depicted in the Gateway as I've previously assumed, maybe just the "consuming" New Moon is depicted, symbolically for something else entirely..

but then why full moon shenanigans (wilba, woodie and RoG pigs curse) are triggered in the aporkalipsis