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[Spaced Out! Update] - 467601


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Hi friends, we've got some updates to the Diamond Press as well as a couple crashfixes and restoring the missing valves. Another update to the modding system comes with this as well, I'll be updating the relevant posts shortly. Thanks and have a great weekend!

Changes

  • Increased Diamond Press recipe mass and work time leading to significantly more diamond throughput.
  • Diamond press radbolt storage capacity adjusted to 2x diamond recipe radbolt requirement.
  • Added Rover Codex entry
  • Modding: Harmony dll now targets the 4.7.1 .net framework. Mod projects will have to be re-targeted to compile.
  • Radbolt Engine and Diamond Press meters are more granular.
  • Worldgen: Tuning changes to the Terra Cluster Spaced Out style (WIP)
    • Added small number of Frozen biomes below the surface
    • Added guaranteed Cool Salt Slush and Cool Slush geysers
    • Increased amount of water in the starting biome
    • Slightly increased starting biome size
    • Decreased size of Barren biome

Fixes

  • Worldgen: Marshy Asteroid's Experiment 2B is now located further away from the surface.
  • Meter Valves are now available in Spaced Out again.
  • Fixed crash on Rocket landing with DLC disabled.
  • Fixed issue preventing change of Duplicant selection in the skills screen.
  • Update DLC toggle popup text as a download is no longer required.
  • Game now properly restarts when toggling DLC from the main menu.

 


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1 hour ago, Ipsquiggle said:
  • Added small number of Frozen biomes below the surface
  • Added guaranteed Cool Salt Slush and Cool Slush geysers

ok so now each start has same guaranteed geysers then, except nat gas on terra while others have hydrogen this seems fair

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3 hours ago, crbd115 said:

ok so now each start has same guaranteed geysers then, except nat gas on terra while others have hydrogen this seems fair

Hydrogen with 500°C output, vs NatGas with what? 70°C? (i would have to take a look at the specs). I wont call that fair ;)

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9 minutes ago, SharraShimada said:

Hydrogen with 500°C output, vs NatGas with what? 70°C? (i would have to take a look at the specs). I wont call that fair ;)

its fair going by the fact that left most planetoid is supposed to be easier

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22 minutes ago, SharraShimada said:

Hydrogen with 500°C output, vs NatGas with what? 70°C? (i would have to take a look at the specs). I wont call that fair ;)

Hydrogen has no waste products to output that heat into (NatGas does), and therefore is just destroyed.  As long as you have a decent material to build Insulated Tiles and Insulated Gas Pipes from, you will have hundreds of cycles to work on getting a cooling loop in place before it becomes relevant.

You can also just choose to not open it if you are concerned about generating too much heat from it.

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Cool Steam Vents at this point are a complete joke. I don't disagree with making water sources a bit easy to come by on the starting asteroid, but it seems very odd to provide something that can screw over new players with heat like this when slightly further out there's something that solves heat basically forever.

If you're gonna keep CSVs around, it might be good to up their output temperature to 130 C so that steam turbines can easily get power from them (essentially a pump that gives power, at the cost of needing to then find a way to cool it down eventually), instead of the current state of things where we need a rather complicated build just to get water for a bit less power than a pump.
Pump power cost is trivial, build complexity is not.

If you aren't gonna keep them around on the starting asteroid, it'd be good to put them on the other asteroids instead, providing an increased challenge to water sourcing when colonizing new asteroids.

Edited by Nebbie
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1 hour ago, Nebbie said:

Cool Steam Vents at this point are a complete joke.


CSVs present an interesting challenge which is solvable in many ways (one way I tamed a CSV was running a long granite pipe loop through my stairwell in the -60 C biome near space to heat it and make life a little warmer for my dupes passing through, that biome has so much cold that it can condense a CSV for many hundreds of cycles).

I largely agree though that they are mostly pointless in terms of water when there are two cold water geysers available and the Tepidizer is so OP for injecting heat.

I am hoping that the DLC spaced-out asteroids will get some Aridio/Oasisse style hard starts that don't have bucketloads of free cold and instead have heat as a pressing challenge, this would be a perfect place for a guaranteed CSV.

Edited by blakemw
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10 minutes ago, blakemw said:


CSVs present an interesting challenge which is solvable in many ways (one way I tamed a CSV was running a long granite pipe loop through my stairwell in the -60 C biome near space to heat it and make life a little warmer for my dupes passing through, that biome has so much cold that it can condense a CSV for many hundreds of cycles).

I largely agree though that they are mostly pointless in terms of water when there are two cold water geysers available and the Tepidizer is so OP for injecting heat.

I am hoping that the DLC spaced-out asteroids will get some Aridio/Oasisse style hard starts that don't have bucketloads of free cold and instead have heat as a pressing challenge, this would be a perfect place for a guaranteed CSV.

It's nice to be able to remove cold biomes as an issue, but I would prefer robust setups that won't eventually break, and that means a contained system to put around a CSV. Cold geysers are stupid easy for this, because you can just slap in a tepidizer.
CSVs could be easy to tame if the tepidizer wasn't capped in temperature (tepidizer in oil to heat things to 125 C so steam turbine can then condense water at 95 C), but it's so ridiculously efficient it would literally create free power when paired with steam turbines, so it really would need its efficiency reduced.

Edited by Nebbie
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22 minutes ago, Nebbie said:


CSVs could be easy to tame if the tepidizer wasn't capped in temperature (tepidizer in oil to heat things to 125 C so steam turbine can then condense water at 95 C), but it's so ridiculously efficient it would literally create free power when paired with steam turbines, so it really would need its efficiency reduced.

There are multiple power positive CSV tamers that exploit the split chamber principle and can even pull from all vents with appropriate shenanigans. 
 


And for players who consider "cool steam eating" an exploit too far, then Aquatuned setups are only slightly power-negative if well designed. To be precise, the Aquatuner has to heat the steam from 110 to 125, so the AT adds +15 C, power is then generated by the ST on the difference between 125 C and 95 C, so the ST removes 30 C. An Aquatuner spends about 2 J to transport 1 kDTU, and a ST generates about 1 J from 1 kDTU. As such a good honest steam-heating setup is approximately power-neutral.

Of course an AT/ST steam cooling system is thoroughly power-negative because no power can be generated from heat in the steam except after transporting it through the AT, though is generally more compact especially for high-flow rate CSVs that may require 2 or more Steam Turbines to eat the steam as quickly as it erupts.

Edited by blakemw
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On the Cool Steam Vent topic...

The larger issue here is that Plastic isn't a given.  By the time you're looking for an infinite water source, it's pretty doubtful you've gone to the Oil Biome to get Crude for turning into Petro then Plastic.  Especially for a newer player, as this discussion has been framed, you are probably still on Algae and are in need of an Electrolyzer setup.  Depending on how much Water your particular seed has/had in the Starter Biome, you might not even have Steel, and only then if you have got a Hatch Ranch set up for the egg shell to make a lot of Lime.  A newer player probably won't have a Glossy Drecko Ranch for alternative Plastic, meaning they can't build a Steam Turbine.

This presents a substantial challenge for newer players who are desperate for Water and happen to trip over one of the exposed Cool Steam Vents, or even the Water Geyser or exposed Salt Water Geyser.  You just don't have any tools to work with other than the latent temperature of the Cold Biome for cooling that water and/or Oxygen for your base.  This is one of the common death spiral points, because the hot water will heat the base and stifle crops.

I wonder if that's why there is some Crude Oil that spawns with the Teleporter Pod.  I don't know how the numbers work out, if that's enough Crude to make Petro from for a quick'n'dirty early Plastic Press, and how much Plastic you'd get from that.

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6 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

On the Cool Steam Vent topic...

The larger issue here is that Plastic isn't a given.  By the time you're looking for an infinite water source, it's pretty doubtful you've gone to the Oil Biome to get Crude for turning into Petro then Plastic.  Especially for a newer player, as this discussion has been framed, you are probably still on Algae and are in need of an Electrolyzer setup.  Depending on how much Water your particular seed has/had in the Starter Biome, you might not even have Steel, and only then if you have got a Hatch Ranch set up for the egg shell to make a lot of Lime.  A newer player probably won't have a Glossy Drecko Ranch for alternative Plastic, meaning they can't build a Steam Turbine.

I've never needed to tame a CSV before plastic. Terra already had a lot of starting water, between the Sandstone biome's clean water pools and all the polluted Marsh water waiting to go through a sieve, and this update just added even more.

I haven't yet started a new colony with the changes, but on all my older colonies I would switch to electrolyzers way before taming a CSV and last ~400 cycles or so without even worrying about it. I typically keep 12 dupes on the main asteroid.

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3 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

This presents a substantial challenge for newer players who are desperate for Water and happen to trip over one of the exposed Cool Steam Vents, or even the Water Geyser or exposed Salt Water Geyser.  You just don't have any tools to work with other than the latent temperature of the Cold Biome for cooling that water and/or Oxygen for your base.  This is one of the common death spiral points, because the hot water will heat the base and stifle crops.

I think that's a fair comment. I'm not a new player but I'm a low level / low tech player. In over 600 hours I don't believe I've ever built a steam turbine. Taming geyers is a concept I've only come across recently since my interest in ONI was rekindled by the DLC. These aren't things the game teaches you. You either figure them out or perhaps more likely learn or copy from the internet. I wouldn't consider these new player concepts.

For a spaced out start, what is the purpose of the starting planet? Does having a cool steam vent fit within this purpose? It might not be there for new players, does it have value for more advanced / experienced players? Could the cool steam vent be covered, so that players have a choice of exposing it?

For me in my few patch old classic start game, I've put an insulated tile box around one cool steam vent and ignored it. The other I'm pumping the water into an oil well, because it's close.

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38 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

On the Cool Steam Vent topic...

The larger issue here is that Plastic isn't a given.  By the time you're looking for an infinite water source, it's pretty doubtful you've gone to the Oil Biome to get Crude for turning into Petro then Plastic.  Especially for a newer player, as this discussion has been framed, you are probably still on Algae and are in need of an Electrolyzer setup.  Depending on how much Water your particular seed has/had in the Starter Biome, you might not even have Steel, and only then if you have got a Hatch Ranch set up for the egg shell to make a lot of Lime.  A newer player probably won't have a Glossy Drecko Ranch for alternative Plastic, meaning they can't build a Steam Turbine.

This presents a substantial challenge for newer players who are desperate for Water and happen to trip over one of the exposed Cool Steam Vents, or even the Water Geyser or exposed Salt Water Geyser.  You just don't have any tools to work with other than the latent temperature of the Cold Biome for cooling that water and/or Oxygen for your base.  This is one of the common death spiral points, because the hot water will heat the base and stifle crops.

I wonder if that's why there is some Crude Oil that spawns with the Teleporter Pod.  I don't know how the numbers work out, if that's enough Crude to make Petro from for a quick'n'dirty early Plastic Press, and how much Plastic you'd get from that.

That's another problem I've noticed. I had plastic easy on forest start from glossy dreckos, but steel was an utter pain because, unlike in the base game's forest start, there were no pokeshells anywhere and no oil biomes. I couldn't even try out a metal ore aquatuner using gold amalgam because there's no swamp biome, so the only option I had was to wait on eggshells or use the teleporter.
A newer player facing this would certainly not have the knowledge I do to correctly do a metal refinery right near a cold slush pit and just wait for the glossy dreckos' coats and eggs to eventually pay off enuff. They would be utterly screwed unless they went early into the teleporter or rocketry, or completely ignored ethanol-based power and went for hatches (which are much harder to get going on forest).

I think they should change some of the granite in the Barren biome into fossil. Not nearly as much as the oil biome has, but some to get at least one aquatuner of steel from excavating a large portion.

1 hour ago, CheeseGromit said:

I think that's a fair comment. I'm not a new player but I'm a low level / low tech player. In over 600 hours I don't believe I've ever built a steam turbine. Taming geyers is a concept I've only come across recently since my interest in ONI was rekindled by the DLC. These aren't things the game teaches you. You either figure them out or perhaps more likely learn or copy from the internet. I wouldn't consider these new player concepts.

For a spaced out start, what is the purpose of the starting planet? Does having a cool steam vent fit within this purpose? It might not be there for new players, does it have value for more advanced / experienced players? Could the cool steam vent be covered, so that players have a choice of exposing it?

For me in my few patch old classic start game, I've put an insulated tile box around one cool steam vent and ignored it. The other I'm pumping the water into an oil well, because it's close.

Steam Turbines aren't too hard to use, the main idea is you put them overtop a box that should only contain steam over 125 C. The Steam Turbine "eats" the steam and then "pees" 95 C water out while making power. Have the output water pipe into a liquid vent in the steam box and you've got a closed system, so you can just delete at least 30 C of water heat as needed for power.
Now, that in itself doesn't may not sound too useful to you, but then you get the Aquatuner, which lowers the temperature of what gets piped into it, and dumps the heat it took near itself...so put that in the steam box, and you've got a way to pull the heat right out of water in pipes for deletion, which means a way to cool down your base. The piping's a little complicated (you need a bypass bridge as well as a reservoir to average temperature and provide "space" in the loop, and a bit of automation to control temperature right at the input to the AT), but it's a godsend to have.
You can also just have a metal refinery's hot coolant run through the steam room to cool down for free power from making steel.

Anyways, yeah, you're doing it right with CSVs. They can be power-positive using what are quite frankly exploits (the trick is that the ST uses the highest temperature it sees for making power and eating steam across all ports), but I'm just not comfortable trying to use them when it's so much better to just be relying on cold brine. Even the old salt water geysers that output at 40 C are so, so much less hassle to deal with, because 40 C is often a perfectly acceptable temperature.

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22 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

Even the old salt water geysers that output at 40 C

What salt geyser outputs at 40C..? Salt water geyser and water geyser output 95 C. Only polluted water vent outputs around that temperature (30C) but has food poisoning in it.

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17 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Cool Steam Vents at this point are a complete joke. I don't disagree with making water sources a bit easy to come by on the starting asteroid, but it seems very odd to provide something that can screw over new players with heat like this when slightly further out there's something that solves heat basically forever.

Hot steam for ONI beginners is like booting up GTA for the first time and a guy pops in the screen and shoots in your face with a pump gun - As introduction to the game. :crushed:

There will always be counter argument people saying "You can bunny jump in the first seconds on to the window on the 8th floor, just jump on to the 12 window ledges...to avoid the pump gun encounter as you play GTA for the first time" in this virtual, imaginary created scenario of mine.

In ONI basically a beginner video should be played, showing how someone boxes up a hot steam vent with tiles - If the game starts with a pump gun in the face.

The cold hot steam vent, the 110 Celsius hot cold pump gun

Edited by babba
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