Durability applied on Atmo Suit and Jet Suit

[SamLogan]

Since the last version of Spaced Out, Atmo Suit and Jet Suit have a durability so you can't use it until you repair it.

Given the vanilla game will recieve some features from Spaced Out, there's a chance this version will have the durability system. Here's the pros and cons for me :

Pros :

- Reduce the Atmo Suit usage only when it's usefull.

- Micro management (Thimble reed + Forge)

- Atmo suit can be transported by the rails.

Cons :

- Another micro management that can be feel too much.

[sakura_sk]

13 minutes ago, SamLogan said:

Cons :

- Another micro management that can be feel too much.

No micromanagement needed. Just set and forget (setting the station to infinity repair job  of worn suits and  having a regular supply of reed fiber for atmo/jet suits repairs)

[SamLogan]

39 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

No micromanagement needed. Just set and forget (setting the station to infinity repair job  of worn suits and  having a regular supply of reed fiber for atmo/jet suits repairs)

Yep it's more about reed fiber, even it's not a big deal in the game.

[Yunru]

It's another thing to build, and at the end of the day that means more things to do before "I've built all the things, now what?"

[babba]

Related thread.

With the (base) game rework, it will be interesting to see what is part of the base game and what is part of the DLC.

P(r)aying for the day when all rockets and radiation/reactors are in survival mode + possibility to play on big maps.

 

[MinhPham]

It's annoying .... and nothing else ....

As i said on the other thread this is a dangerous idea to start with .... if something can have it's durability wear off over time, may be something else can too ... how about maintaining the aquatuner every cycle ?

[pether]

I wouldn't mind some atmo suits nerfing, but current version of durability system is rather bad... It doesn't solve suits being OP issue, only applies higher cost to use them - and this results in slower game progress without achieving anything. It is boring, without any puzzle nor challenge behind it.

I really hated how in base game I could queue few tasks from my mega-project, go sleep for 3 more hours, and after this time see that little was done... DLC has nice dynamic behind it, there is always something to do, if not on one asteroid then you can be sure you have plenty of tasks on another. And once everything is stable - you can colonise next one. This eliminated this bad game design when you "played" by sleeping and waiting hours until anything is done. Durability system is a step backwards, it adds more dupe tasks that achieve nothing... I really hate it...

To make things consistant with the rest of the game, I'd suggest to make suits take temperature damage, the same way other things in game work. The higher temperature- the bigger damage. If someone wanted to make more advanced suits he would need to use steel or thermium not to overheat them.

This way, extreme abuse of the suits could destroy them even faster, but this is fine - the game already teaches you to watch for overheat temps, there is no need to introduce brand new system. Also - such new system brings risk that someone will one day say "hey, here is durability system for everything to align with suits durability you liked" - and this would kill any dynamic and progress of the game. No. Just no.

Durability could be a good and fun thing, but not in current form...

[JRup]

On 1/31/2021 at 4:27 PM, babba said:

P(r)aying for the day when all rockets and radiation/reactors are in survival mode + possibility to play on big maps.

You forgot to ask for fire, fire!

[Artorias36]

It is a nuisance and doesn't add anything to the game. If they need maintenance, why not also the other buildings like power plants, aquatuners, farming tiles etc.

It is better to create different tiers of atmo suits, one that works only with temperature less than 100 degrees, one that works only for space and so on, instead of doing this.

 

[goboking]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:11 AM, MinhPham said:

As i said on the other thread this is a dangerous idea to start with .... if something can have it's durability wear off over time, may be something else can too ... how about maintaining the aquatuner every cycle ?

That argument goes both ways, you know. 

"If they simplify the game by removing durability, they might remove the need to manage heat next.  Or they might remove the need to feed our dupes after that.  Who knows...if we support the removal of durability, we may one day end up with a game that doesn't even require dupes at all because 'dupes are inconvenient and caring for them slows the game down.'"

 

13 hours ago, Artorias36 said:

It is a nuisance and doesn't add anything to the game. If they need maintenance, why not also the other buildings like power plants, aquatuners, farming tiles etc.

Power plants require fuel and generate heat, and some produce waste byproducts that most be disposed of.  Aquatuners require power and generate lots of heat.  Farm tiles require crops that need to be fertilized, irrigated, and climate controlled.  Atmosuits require a one-time investment of reed fiber, some metal, and a steady supply of oxygen, and in return they trivialize every environmental hazard in the game.

[he77789]

If so, then make them take clean water and output polluted water to signify the CO2 scrubbers. That also makes it more of a challenge to supply.

[MinhPham]

5 hours ago, goboking said:

That argument goes both ways, you know. 

"If they simplify the game by removing durability, they might remove the need to manage heat next.  Or they might remove the need to feed our dupes after that.  Who knows...if we support the removal of durability, we may one day end up with a game that doesn't even require dupes at all because 'dupes are inconvenient and caring for them slows the game down.'"

True, but so far they didn't started doing anything like that, yet. In addition, making suits wear off is a way to deal with this low priority bug, they can just make them consume oxygen properly instead ...

[Artorias36]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:45 AM, goboking said:

That argument goes both ways, you know. 

"If they simplify the game by removing durability, they might remove the need to manage heat next.  Or they might remove the need to feed our dupes after that.  Who knows...if we support the removal of durability, we may one day end up with a game that doesn't even require dupes at all because 'dupes are inconvenient and caring for them slows the game down.'"

 

Power plants require fuel and generate heat, and some produce waste byproducts that most be disposed of.  Aquatuners require power and generate lots of heat.  Farm tiles require crops that need to be fertilized, irrigated, and climate controlled.  Atmosuits require a one-time investment of reed fiber, some metal, and a steady supply of oxygen, and in return they trivialize every environmental hazard in the game.

 

They require a docking station which requires energy and oxygen to work.

[ZombieDupe]

I'm rather indifferent. Repairs don't make the game tedious, and it gives a reason to continuously make reed fibre. I used to do that anyway with excess latrine water anyway until bog buckets became a thing in the DLC. So basically you're... you're peeing on your suits to repair them. The oxygen masks though require only some power to repair at a work bench, doesn't even need any additional resources to do so. Because it is easy to automate the suit repairs, I don't see it being that huge of a problem. In fact I hope they get nerfed in some other ways, like also requiring glass to make, and duplicants not being able to use the bathroom or eat while in suits, since we have oxygen masks available as a transitional set of suit progression now anyway.

[Alex BNC]

If only duplicants bring the repaired suits back to docks. Have to check every single one of them repeatedly and do it "myself". Also I have no idea what to do with a gas canister containing 2.5 tons of oxygen which is now residing below atmosuits checkpont in my main "Hub" planetoid.

[Sasza22]

I just wonder why does it take 4 reed fibers to repair a jet suit if you don`t need any to costruct one.

[SharraShimada]

In the new preview build for the DLC you just can disable the durability feature and forget about it. So no need to cry anymore.

[pether]

2 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

In the new preview build for the DLC you just can disable the durability feature and forget about it. So no need to cry anymore.

There is a big difference between constructive feedback and useless crying. As big as a difference between constructive post on topic and spiteful mockery of other's opinions.

Possibility to turn this feature is a good move from KLEI and it brings peace to my mind as I found the idea of suit nerfing bad in its current iteration despite the great potential it could reach if done in a different way.

[MachineryMan]

Durability was introduced to make a task to provide ATMO suits with fiber on every asteroid where they are used, as I understand it. That way you can't make them on the main asteroid and then cut all the others. I'm fine with it. Are there better solutions? Absolutely. Cut the oxygen supply to the size of a gas mask, for example, and greatly increase the stress and calorie consumption during the use of ATMO. Then it would at least come close to a fair price for the opportunities it opens up. But most people already have a hard time, so we can barely expect such a radical nerf.
Oxygen canisters can be released into the atmosphere with a canister emptier, by the way. Also, dudes automatically take a broken suit, fix it, and put it back in its place.

[Alex BNC]

7 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

Also, dudes automatically take a broken suit, fix it, and put it back in its place.

Really? Hm, I have to check what is wrong with my base then.

7 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

Oxygen canisters can be released into the atmosphere with a canister emptier, by the way.

That is true, but by the time I have atmosuits - the base if filled with O2 already. So that will only lead to overpressure and eardrums pop. Beside that, dups only carry 200kg at a time. So it is either build a lot of canister emptiers, be very patient about it (  ) or crank it open at the spot (usually close to mechanised airlock next to the vacuum of space). The only viable solution that comes to my mind - canister emptiers inside the rockets. The only drawback - atmosuits aren't always close to rockets. Oil industry and magma processing plants are all deep below. So its a long run. Much easier to put canister fillers where they are needed.

With a bit of exploits you can even make your rockets self sustainable . At least for oxygen (new option for polluted o2 production from polluted dirt makes all the difference)
So I have no need for canisters with o2 really. Especially when the amount of canister builds up over time.

 

One more point that troubles me is that you can't repair the atmosuit at 1% or any % for that matter.
I really hate to see the docks filled with 33% weared down suits when i need to send a dup on a space mission with a atmosuit. You can easily set up recharging station, but it would take a small infrastructure to repair them "on the go".

[MachineryMan]

9 hours ago, Alex BNC said:

That is true, but by the time I have atmosuits - the base if filled with O2 already

I put one of these things on the edge of the base. The thing is, it bleeds oxygen pretty slowly. The air pressure rises even slower and I didn't notice any difference at all. No one's ears are blown off. Try it, I've never used that thing in my life, I thought it worked a little differently. Maybe it's the same for you. I agree that canisters on the floor are inconvenient. But really, this problem shows more about the underdevelopment of the game's gas transportation and storage system than it does the poorly designed durability system (of course, that too). 

 

9 hours ago, Alex BNC said:

canister emptiers inside the rockets.

At the moment I'm trying to put this thing in a rocket. The problems are as follows:
1. To control the pressure the thing has to stand on the door with the automation on the atmospheric sensor. It is 4 cells high. It is very inconvenient to locate.
2. I still can't think of a sane way to get the canisters inside the rocket. Only manually to the emptier, which is also turned off manually (there is no automation on it).
3. I can't think of a quick way to make 200kg canisters. The filler makes them 25kg. Looked at the mods, because this is clearly a miscalculation of the developer, but there is nothing for DLC.

So far, the perspective is not encouraging. Looks like I'll have to think about an indoor electrolyzer or wait until the update comes out. I have almost no algae left. I don't want to tear down the walls.

10 hours ago, Alex BNC said:

One more point that troubles me is that you can't repair the atmosuit at 1% or any % for that matter.

There's no doubt about it. A miscalculation of development.

[sakura_sk]

5 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

3. I can't think of a quick way to make 200kg canisters. The filler makes them 25kg. Looked at the mods, because this is clearly a miscalculation of the developer, but there is nothing for DLC.

I don't think it is a miscalculation. Dupes get popped eardrums above 2-3kg of air pressure and 200kg canisters would manage that very easily.

[MachineryMan]

4 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

I don't think it is a miscalculation. Dupes get popped eardrums above 2-3kg of air pressure and 200kg canisters would manage that very easily.

Well, usually a high-pressure canister is not the safest thing. I mean, I'm even willing to pay electricity and metal for compression, just give me 200kg canisters and teach dudes how to carry them. 

[ZombieDupe]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, pether said:

Possibility to turn this feature is a good move from KLEI and it brings peace to my mind as I found the idea of suit nerfing bad in its current iteration despite the great potential it could reach if done in a different way.

I'm unsure why there are people annoyed by the mechanic since there aren't that many new necessities added to make it that big of a deal, not sure if you share the same sentiment. In what way do you think it could be better?

[pether]

1 minute ago, ZombieDupe said:

In what way do you think it could be better?

I don't like the idea of constant cost in form of resources and labor, that slows down the game. Vanilla late game was pretty slow, DLC added new dynamic and I don't want to go back to long and boring plays.

What I could propose instead? 

Durability working on overheat - in temperate regions suits don't loose hp, but in extreme conditions damage is much faster. Making suits of steel or even thermium works same way as makig buildings out of them.

Or negative effects for dupes working too long in the suits, like -1 morale for each hour above some threshold

Or something else that brings challenge and fun, not only additional cost in form of time...