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Done with the DLC so far


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Disclaimer, thats not meant to be disappointed.

So far:

I like the split asteroid system... kinda. Just have to get used to the fact, i have to ship/warp stuff between locations.

The new rocket system ist kinda neat, except the command modules. They just suck. The single one is too small for everything, and even the big one gets really cramped and its a pain of micromanagement to forget nothing before launch.  I would be really happy, it KLEI would get rid of this system again. Its no fun at all.

And for now, i colonized the 3 asteroids in range, the others are reachable, but there ist just nothing. Volcanos have not spawn at all (just the neutronium floor ist there...) and there is nothing to do. So i´m finished for now. Nothing more to do. And yes, i´m aware its in an early state and such.

I´m curious what they will add in the future...

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25 minutes ago, SharraShimada said:

Volcanos have not spawn at all (just the neutronium floor ist there...)

When you play for real and not debug/sandbox they spawn just fine :P   

If you only want play on debug, you need make sure to spawn a dupe in planet or near volcano for everything to spawn. (I'm not judging.. just pointing out how to solve it ;) )

Also, I find command modules cramped and cozy :D , just how they should be (pictures below)

Spoiler

 

573824874_rocketmodule.JPG.1814015a3155a62ef1f598882fb88fc2.JPG588313282_rocketmodule2.thumb.jpg.446c3c6ebcf9c46099cf29656264f601.jpg

1466236583_Ottostillresearching.JPG.730da1360a5d07362a1ff74e35fd390c.JPG

1987893974_rockettravel.JPG.134d26c87d058cbca1a8b794012a5477.JPG

691958360_rockettravel_.JPG.41bbb735d9cf55b995fa168d14fa7143.JPG

 

I can't wait to see what new modules are in the works. Perhaps a grand spacefarer module or ...a luxurious sightseeing module :o (glass all over, beach chairs only! )

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You can only really have colonies on the first and teleport planets due to shipping water or O2.  Plus the other ones are small and you can just travel once after robo miners strip mined them, and bring back everything in one trip.  I think you end up with one colony on what is now 1/3 of the map size.  You get a neat mechanic that you only use a few times....

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For now we don`t have a proper endgame so after discovering everything there actually isn`t anything to do. Unless you want to make a sustainable colony on every asteroid and experiment with rockets.

As for the command modules i like how they force you to choose what stuff you want in. When using rockets for short distances the dupe can do the mission and come back in under a cycle. This means he needs just some oxygen and maybe a toilet for good measure. No need to cramp too much stuff in. The command capsue is a temporary workplace not a self ufficient colony. At least until we get a huge command module for deep space missions.

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That's a reason I offered Klei a slightly different game mechanics. The current model is very limited by a computer power and cannot be grown significantly. 

I see it as following:

Cluster map and realtime scenario is good for a small size map Just make many clusters. In each cluster when the player is in this cluster it will be like now. But then you can move to another cluster and the new cluster may have absolutely different asteroids. So these clusters can be any amount. In fact, Klei can sell a pack of clusters separately as extra DLC. The time will freeze (same when you exit the game) when you exit one cluster and move to another. So you actively manage only the cluster you are in - other clusters are freezed (consequently do not consume computer power). You will have ample exploration opportunities - so many clusters. No one will complain about the size of maps as it will be just one big map in one cluster or 10 very small ones in another or like now one medium sized and 5 small or whatever. Every new cluster may surprise players with new living conditions, animals, plants. The beauty is it will be boundless. A player can still move resources and dups between the clusters but it will be like load and fire - the deliver will be once a player goes to the cluster and hence making it active.

Coding is not difficult. it is just changing the game architecture. It will be multiple saves (for each cluster it is own save) but linked to each other by in-game mechanics - you need a long haul ship to discover another cluster (like sending a dupe to the last planetoid in the vanilla game) or sending an unmanned scout probe.  A player will have an option to make a jump to another cluster (it will be simple save the current cluster and load the visiting cluster) and it will be a warp tube animation or something like it as it may take several minutes to complete the move. 

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6 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

Volcanos have not spawn at all (just the neutronium floor ist there...) and there is nothing to do. So i´m finished for now. Nothing more to do.

That sounds like an issue with your map generation seed. It would be a good idea to create a bug tracker for your seed. Including seed, screenshot and savegame.

2 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

Cluster map and realtime scenario is good for a small size map Just make many clusters. In each cluster when the player is in this cluster it will be like now. But then you can move to another cluster and the new cluster may have absolutely different asteroids. So these clusters can be any amount. In fact, Klei can sell a pack of clusters separately as extra DLC. The time will freeze (same when you exit the game) when you exit one cluster and move to another. So you actively manage only the cluster you are in - other clusters are freezed (consequently do not consume computer power). You will have ample exploration opportunities - so many clusters. No one will complain about the size of maps as it will be just one big map in one cluster or 10 very small ones in another or like now one medium sized and 5 small or whatever. Every new cluster may surprise players with new living conditions, animals, plants. The beauty is it will be boundless. A player can still move resources and dups between the clusters but it will be like load and fire - the deliver will be once a player goes to the cluster and hence making it active.

What would be the benefit of this system?

There will already be different "clusters" to choose your starting location. So the only different is that in your system you can switch between clusters.

This freezing mechanic sounds tempting, but it will also break immersion, since you essentially play multiple disjoined games, where he can exchange a few dupes and resources every now and then.

By that logic you could also allow to transfer resources or dupes between savegames.

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my logic is that currently devs are limited to the average computer power. I wanted to have one big map (old good vanilla size) plus extra maps in the same game. We got more small maps and it is very possible (I can only guess as I do not know the game coding)  that 6 is the limit. I would be very happy to be wrong and we will have an option to start with a big map and then have like 20 asteroids to discover and all run in real time.

In my option you can have virtually limitless clusters. So your starting place does not mean too much as you will see ALL asteroids in the game session. You may start like vanilla game with just one asteroid in a cluster (or choose whatever you like) and then move to another cluster and there will be additional maps there and so on. 

So my proposal is to introduce much bigger universe with no extra load on pc processing. No need to change what is done - it is already great. 

But just add extra layer tying up save files into one tree. It has to be carefully done to preserve immersion. 

I described how it can be easily done on the backend but it should not be seen as simple on the frontend. 

First, it should be a good galactic map which depict all the clusters so you can easily choose where to travel to. Second, the travel should not be like saving and loading (in fact it will be a simple save and load and peg some files to the loading file) but really like traveling - just a simple video of traveling played. Players will not move too often between the clusters and it will not be annoyable. Ideally I see players develop one cluster, then looking for new worlds (clusters) and then move on to discover new worlds with some unique or challenging or more favorable conditions.

It will be very easy for devs to scale the game. Every new addition will not be the game changer. it will be just adding another clusters to the well run game. The new clusters can be packed and sold as DLC. There can be new plants or animals that are only this cluster specific and cannot be moved to another cluster but within the cluster. 

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2 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

my logic is that currently devs are limited to the average computer power.

Some relevant info:

Average desktop computer has 4+ cores. According to Steam 40% have 4 cores, only 16% or so are below that, and less than a percent are single core.

Usually games do not utilize CPU's cores fully because they won't win much from threading or it's very-very complicated to do. With exception like pathfinding, uncompressing files, image decoding, physics, e t c happening on separate threads (and cores), all those are often in separate threads simply due to being resource heavy. Audio engines like fmodex, plugins like CEF, databases are also in separate threads but mostly because it is easy to setup them this way. More advanced and CPU heavy games run two mayor threads: sort of 'server' thread and graphical thread.

Notable exception to these rules are games that run multiple 'arenas' simultaneously or multiple parallel worlds. Those often run a separate thread for each 'world/arena/bubble/chunk/playfield'. Most often these are multiplayer games, but some like Empyrion appear to init/run separate threads per active planet even for singleplayer.

Now back to ONI:

ONI does not appear to use more than one core (may be a bit more for audio and the like). Which means that it actually does not utilize CPU sufficiently, in most cases it does not go above 25% (in my case 'base' game is stubbornly at 7% even when it lags). Which is somewhat understandable for non-DLC game. But it also means that I can launch and run multiple instance of ONI simultaneously and my computer will be able to do so without issues (sans Steam not allowing second instance) with passable framerate in each instance. Effectively I will be running multiple large unconnected asteroids simultaneously.

In a 'base' game we had one large asteroid that probably was very hard to thread due to everything affecting everything so threads will have to interact very often. I'm fairly sure that there are ways around, Factorio did a nice job there, but complexity of the solution probably wasn't worth the gain and delay for ONI.

DLC changes this! Individual asteroids are not connected in any way most of the time and do not share resources most of the time! For desktop exchanging resources once a second is effectively 'never': we won't notice that delay spent on syncing (and use of atomic variables can avoid even that). As result, separate asteroids should be relatively easy to thread. Rockets, warping and notifications are very simple to sync due to rarity. There might be potential issues with yielding to not overuse the cores (ONI doesn't appear to do that for some reason), but that also can be solved.

Summary: In DLC's specific case Multi-threading is fully feasible and can allow running multiple large asteroids without issues. But doesn't appear to be implemented.

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16 hours ago, chemie said:

You can only really have colonies on the first and teleport planets due to shipping water or O2.

Make lots of water anywhere with the power of ethanol refinement.

16 hours ago, chemie said:

I think you end up with one colony on what is now 1/3 of the map size.  You get a neat mechanic that you only use a few times.

Only if you never utilize the 8 volcanoes situated on the outer 3 planets.

(see first reply for how to see them if they are not showing like OP.)
(Unfortunately, about 50% of the time the niobium one really won't spawn - I'd recommend checking before playing.)

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5 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

Some relevant info:

Average desktop computer has 4+ cores. According to Steam 40% have 4 cores, only 16% or so are below that, and less than a percent are single core.

Usually games do not utilize CPU's cores fully because they won't win much from threading or it's very-very complicated to do.

Wow, what I also like about ONI is its player base. There are so many smart educated people and non-aggressive conversation. You go to any shooter forum and you will see the difference.

Effectively what Andrey is saying, Klei does not need to freeze the worlds to make the game universe very big but they need to optimize the game for modern computers (multicore). I know that they already using different processing for in-focus and out-of-focus (in DST, for example) to reduce the load.

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5 hours ago, gabberworld said:

go inside worldgen\worlds folder and change you world size whatever you want inside yaml files

it can be a great idea if I know how to do it. If you make a small and simple step-by-step help file (for dummies) how to do it, I believe many appreciate it. 

I consider it can be done if Klei decides not to up the game with bigger maps PLUS small ones in the same cluster (they already mentioned that they come up with old size maps as an option).

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19 hours ago, chemie said:

You can only really have colonies on the first and teleport planets due to shipping water or O2.  Plus the other ones are small and you can just travel once after robo miners strip mined them, and bring back everything in one trip.  I think you end up with one colony on what is now 1/3 of the map size.  You get a neat mechanic that you only use a few times....

There is the "Interplanetary Launcher" and the "Payload Opener". The launcher seem not to be in the research tree yet, but if I understand it right it works somewhat like the supply teleporter and would allow you to keep colonies alive.

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2 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

it can be a great idea if I know how to do it. If you make a small and simple step-by-step help file (for dummies) how to do it, I believe many appreciate it. 

I consider it can be done if Klei decides not to up the game with bigger maps PLUS small ones in the same cluster (they already mentioned that they come up with old size maps as an option).

 

assuming if you want that Swamp map is same sized like vanilla maps. then you need open the SwampMoonlet.yaml file with notepad or notepad++

after that you need change the 2 values bottom at worldsize: for the

  X: 256
  Y: 384

current Swamp map size is

worldsize:
  X: 160
  Y: 224

worldsize is  typed as tiles, Y is top to bottom tiles and X is the left to right tiles

 

change only activates for new gameworld current game what you already play stays same

 

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1 hour ago, gabberworld said:

assuming if you want that Swamp map is same sized like vanilla maps. then you need open the SwampMoonlet.yaml file with notepad or notepad++

after that you need change the 2 values bottom at worldsize: for the

  X: 256
  Y: 384

current Swamp map size is

worldsize:
  X: 160
  Y: 224

I have to admit it is intriguing. So it is actually a very simple and relatively easy fix to all these problems with small worlds...

If devs do not come with such update to have big worlds I now know what to do and it takes like 5 minutes.

I will discuss coding in the spoiler so be aware. It may ruin your game experience if you know how it works.

Spoiler

As I can see you can change the size of all asteroids in the game relatively easy (including outer ring ones). So it is very possible to make vanilla size map for the starting and actually for any other asteroids in the game. All that are changed in 

F:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\OxygenNotIncluded\OxygenNotIncluded_Data\StreamingAssets\worldgen\worlds

Clearly, it will not be F disk but C or D or whatever you use for steam games. You can change the *moonlets for asteroid generation change including size, different biomes' composition, geysers, etc. Each asteroid consists of subworlds (biomes) that are taken from subworlds folder.

 As I understood from the coding increasing X and Y not only increases the map size but also increases all included biome sizes (limited to their maximum size). You can also add some life-supporting biomes to far away asteroids such as niobium, tundra. Also I can see that niobium volcano is to be generated 100% of the time. I do not understand why some complain that it is 50% chance if the volcano is generated.

I do not know if there is any restriction mechanism to limit the total size of the world. If it is possible, for instance, to make 6 big maps-asteroids just simply by changing X and Y in the moonlets. Theoretically it seems to be possible and even simple. If one wants to check please let us know if he/she managed to make 6 big ones.

 

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19 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

Also I can see that niobium volcano is to be generated 100% of the time. I do not understand why some complain that it is 50% chance if the volcano is generated.

It is a 100% chance to attempt to spawn. Geysers won't be present if they try to spawn partially in the side of the map, or overwritten by other POIs, for example.

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13 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

It is a 100% chance to attempt to spawn. Geysers won't be present if they try to spawn partially in the side of the map, or overwritten by other POIs, for example.

there is no other POIs on the niobium map. However, the side of the map could be a valid point.

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On 12/23/2020 at 1:55 AM, nakomaru said:

Make lots of water anywhere with the power of ethanol refinement.

Only if you never utilize the 8 volcanoes situated on the outer 3 planets.

(see first reply for how to see them if they are not showing like OP.)
(Unfortunately, about 50% of the time the niobium one really won't spawn - I'd recommend checking before playing.)

But how much niobium do you really need?

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