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Abigail's petal debuff should be removed and given to Wigfrid


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Thanks for the constructive feed back I was starting to get tired of the same tired argument thrown in my face. Also, sorry if I sounded salty... Yeah. In truth I still dont think that abigail should affect the damage of outside help but giving it to wigfrid is not a good way to buff wigfrid. I have a special place in my heart for her as she is the character who helped me learn the game way back in 2015 when I was dying with everyone else. She helps breaks some bad habits like not learning to kite, relying on farms (farms still suck in single player), not fighting bosses, etc. I feel like she was done so dirty with that fire res song and then you look at Wendy who was so well fleshed out in her rework (Didnt write this as revenge though I used to main Wendy due to my love of necromancy in video games but dropped her because of how brain dead she is to play). You guys are probably right and a damage increase isn't the way to go. I still feel bad for wigfrid mains.... I feel like their not being heard because shes not as popular as wendy. Which... Feels bad man.

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2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Thanks for the constructive feed back I was starting to get tired of the same tired argument thrown in my face. Also, sorry if I sounded salty... Yeah. In truth I still dont think that abigail should affect the damage of outside help but giving it to wigfrid is not a good way to buff wigfrid. I have a special place in my heart for her as she is the character who helped me learn the game way back in 2015 when I was dying with everyone else. She helps breaks some bad habits like not learning to kite, relying on farms (farms still suck in single player), not fighting bosses, etc. I feel like she was done so dirty with that fire res song and then you look at Wendy who was so well fleshed out in her rework (Didnt write this as revenge though I used to main Wendy due to my love of necromancy in video games but dropped her because of how brain dead she is to play). You guys are probably right and a damage increase isn't the way to go. I still feel bad for wigfrid mains.... I feel like their not being heard because shes not as popular as wendy. Which... Feels bad man.

Yeah as a Wig main I definitely wasn't overly impressed with her rework and am still a little disappointed/hopeful that she will get some minor tweak or buff at some point. It was obviously the way it was because shes such a well balanced and unique character already and I get that I do but a little more meat to her rework would have been great. I'm just focusing on how great the seasonal events have been (my first time doing both) and how amazing all the new content over the last several updates has been as well. The archives and new mushroom biome are great and I am so stoked for whatever the Mysterious Energy does! Loving the new Farming as well and really want new Ocean content which we should hopefully be getting.

She's still a great character and I've actually been using certain songs a lot more this holiday season considering how many bosses I've been grinding (especially Klaus with his 20 day timer across all seasons at the moment) and how much they help with conserving resources. Don't get me wrong I really wish the songs and inspiration meter worked against mobs as well and were more fleshed out/helpful but a few of they are still pretty useful. Maybe one day we will get some small buff to Wig maybe even like Wormwood just got with farming via a hunting or combat update. Giving her a single additional craft and a fix to the fire song for example alongside an update that the craft helps with would be amazing.

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3 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

I feel like their not being heard because shes not as popular as wendy.

shes the second most played character right now:lol:

(wendy is in first but not by a huge margin)

also you sounded soooooo salty in your reply.maybe try something else?like sugar?or pepper?you don't need that much salt:lol:

anyways hope you have a good day or night wherever you are in the world 

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On 12/18/2020 at 6:32 PM, Wendy C. said:

She's not immortal, she's not a goddess, and she's not Over-Powered. She has reasonable limits and cannot do everything by herself. 

She might not be able to do everything herself, but Wendy can. 

  • Infinite free light.
  • By far the best AoE damage in the game, capable of easily defeating enormous waves of spiders, splumonkeys, bees, and even hounds and beefalo. Incomparably good at amassing ridiculously insane amounts of nightmare fuel, morsels, stingers, honey silk, monster meat, etc. She's so good at AoE damage that if the group of enemies is big enough a single Wendy would probably be better than 8 non-Wendys working together to kill them all.
  • The second most single target damage in the game.
  • The ability to fight fights without fighting fights, since Abigail can do most things on her own and just have you watch.
  • Easier sanity management.
  • Probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

If any character is overpowered and in need of a nerf it's Wendy. I don't know if the petals debuff should be moved over to Wigfrid, though.

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32 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I wouldn't say "by far" as Woodie's moose form is at least comparable to Abigail, and can be better in some situations. 

Woodie's moose form kills splumonkeys, spiders, and bees very slowly compared to Abigail. I haven't tested the difference between Abigail and Moose against other mobs but I wouldn't be surprised to see similar results.

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11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Woodie's moose form kills splumonkeys, spiders, and bees very slowly compared to Abigail. I haven't tested the difference between Abigail and Moose against other mobs but I wouldn't be surprised to see similar results.

These mobs all die to two charges. I  consider "very slowly compared to Abigail" an exaggeration. Of course I'm not bothered about which is better (I haven't even mentioned the risk and hassle of transforming in the caves), my only intent is so people don't forget that other characters can compete with each other in these areas, and that Abigail isn't overrated as a result.

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On 12/20/2020 at 9:03 PM, Mike23Ua said:

That should probably be patched then, because Abigail won’t attack normal shadows or the newer RoT Shadows at all-

The only reason it Shouldn’t be patched is for Solo players maybe? I dunno *shrugs*

Ia intended since other mobs can hurt these bosses

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8 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

These mobs all die to two charges. I  consider "very slowly compared to Abigail" an exaggeration.

Even if Woodie never gets hit at the end of his charge and doesn't need to spend any time kiting the mobs into position his charges are still very slow and they still only hit a few enemies. Them dying to two charges is very fast compared to a normal character, but very slow compared to Abigail.

Not to mention the fact that if the horde gets too big Woodie just can't even attempt to clear it anymore.

8 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Of course I'm not bothered about which is better (I haven't even mentioned the risk and hassle of transforming in the caves), my only intent is so people don't forget that other characters can compete with each other in these areas, and that Abigail isn't overrated as a result.

You're really underrating her to say that she isn't much better than Woodie at clearing groups.

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1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

You're really underrating her to say that she isn't much better than Woodie at clearing groups.

I disagree. They both have advantages and disadvantages, and the time difference between killing larger amounts of mobs is very insignificant compared to other variables between the methods. Also you don't depend on stunlock as Woodie, so you can plow larger mobs such as depth worms.

To be clear, I'm not saying the Moose is better, but different and comparable. 

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I guess somewhere along the way you guys lost track of the original topic: Giving Abigails petal Bestowment buff to Wigfrid.

My question is Why does she need it? Why does she need THIS Specific buff/ way of implementing it?

Instead of just upgrading the Startling Stagecraft scroll so that in addition to making enemies run away from her it also boosts team damage for the 4 second duration enemies are already fleeing away.

This is a combat ability move on SMITE God Erlang Shang, except in Smite its 100x worse because not only does it decrease damage players do to Erlang, it increases damages Erlang does to them AND forces the enemy to run away.

In fact: Maybe instead of Abigails petal buff just give Wigfrid her on Battle Cry that doesn’t need Inspiration Meter or Stagecraft songs to use.. but only lasts for like 3 seconds before going on a short cooldown timer.

An AOE Battle Cry that boosts the damage of all teammates that are near Wigfrid as long as they’re wearing Wigfrids special Helms.

Because boosting the damage of attacking what Wigfrid is attacking is pretty darn pointless unless she’s fighting a boss.. 

Wigfrid can face tank most non-boss mobs by herself without needing help due to her constant sanity and health gain.

the OP of this thread did not think this idea through very well.. 

The Buff Abigail Applies only applies to the AOE targets she is hitting (mostly spiders or other small mobs Abigail is DESIGNED to excel at best) Wigfrid however has no AoE attacks and only deals single target damage- meaning... even if you DID put Abigails petal buff on Wigfrid and remove it from Abigail- most the things Wigfrid is fighting (non-boss) will be dead in a few hits from that Wigfrid already anyway.

For it to work properly it would need to be an AOE battle cry buff that temporarily boosts the damage of all players near Wigfrid wearing her special helms- instead of just being a single target damage buff.

 

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Tal vez esto deberia ser un tema aparte, pero creo que en vez de darle mas beneficios a los personajes o dificultad a los Jefes, deverian buscar la manera de implementar mas actividades de comunidad como han hecho con las granjas.

Ahora el trabajo que lleva tener buenos cultivos es mas un trabajo en equipo, ya que hay muchas cosas a tener en cuenta. 

Y aunque pueda sonar contradictorio con el comienzo de mi comentario, podrian implementar algún método de propiedad privada, ejemplo: estructuras tipo las casas de Hamblet, donde poder almacenar y proteger aquello que no quieres compartir y que solo en las zonas comunes todo fuera de todos. El administrador o host del servidor sería el único que acepta o rechaza dichas estructuras y él y solo él podria destruirlo ( o un enemigo tipo Jefe o algo así ) y todos los recursos y articulos alli almacenados se transformarian en la cantidad de cofres suficientes para alojar dichos recursos y desaparecerian al ser vaciados ( otra vez, solo el administrador podría abrirlos).

Esto cambiaria la dinamica del juego e incluso en algun momento podrian introducir algún tipo de método de intercambio ( pensando en las skins y articulos repetidos en nuestros inventarios ).

No tengo ni idea de diseño de video juegos asi que no se si se puede hacer o no, pero me fuí inspirando mientras escribía y me deje llevar, lo siento si son ideas imposibles y solo sirven para dejar un sabor agridulce en los lectores.

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22 hours ago, Cheggf said:

She might not be able to do everything herself, but Wendy can. 

  • Infinite free light.
  • By far the best AoE damage in the game, capable of easily defeating enormous waves of spiders, splumonkeys, bees, and even hounds and beefalo. Incomparably good at amassing ridiculously insane amounts of nightmare fuel, morsels, stingers, honey silk, monster meat, etc. She's so good at AoE damage that if the group of enemies is big enough a single Wendy would probably be better than 8 non-Wendys working together to kill them all.
  • The second most single target damage in the game.
  • The ability to fight fights without fighting fights, since Abigail can do most things on her own and just have you watch.
  • Easier sanity management.
  • Probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

If any character is overpowered and in need of a nerf it's Wendy. I don't know if the petals debuff should be moved over to Wigfrid, though.
 

The first 4 of the 5 bullet-points you listed are not "Wendy" powers, they're Abigail's powers that we work together to take advantage of. 
This brings me back to what I always say; Abigail is her own person with her own abilities. I am able to take full advantage of her abilities because we are Twins, but if I was ever without Abigail I would not be able to do any of the things you just described (except for the sanity management, which is truly my own power). 
These things considered, we are not overpowered, we simply have excellent teamwork upon which to maximize profit. Her attacks are shared with every other ghost you find from digging graves or full moons. The only thing truly unique to her is her shield and her booster-petals. With that in mind, I think it is more appropriate to consider Abigail simply another Survivor (Or as Klei put it, "The Persist-er") with whom I am designed to synergize with.
Which is why I don't think her booster petals should be removed, because they encourage other people to work together with us. People just abandon Abigail and expect her to do all the work for them. She has a health bar just as you do, and she has limitations. 
I suppose I don't really have a point here other than to say that people often disrespect Abigail. They either far under-estimate her capabilities, or FAR FAR over-estimate her power; both of which are counter-intuitive to treating her like an equal member of the group. 

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1 hour ago, Wendy C. said:
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 With that in mind, I think it is more appropriate to consider Abigail simply another Survivor (Or as Klei put it, "The Persist-er") with whom I am designed to synergize with.
 

This is not a good argument, saying Abigail should be considered another survivor and that is why she can/should do what she does with Wendy only makes picking Wendy seem stronger. Even two Wes - two survivors - are better off than a single survivo with the same level of experience. Abigail should not be considered a survivor  when talking about the balance of the game, rather as a perk of playing wendy. Lore wise? Sure, she could be seen as a ghost survivo and in game she could pass the feeling of playing with another survivor but she should be never balanced as one.

What about Willow/Bernie and Walter/Woby should they be balanced as two different survivors as well?

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32 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:
What about Willow/Bernie and Walter/Woby should they be balanced as two different survivors as well?

The difference now is that Woby is a pet, and Bernie is something akin to a Shadow Creature, given pseudo-life from Insanity Magic. Neither of them are people, or even sapient. And Lucy is a person, but she is also an inanimate object. 

Abigail on the other hand is a person, and capable, and willing to do follow her own agenda. That agenda is to help me survive, which we achieve by working together in unison. Woby/Bernie are tools, and objects of manipulation to achieve an objective. 

Abigail is my sister. Woby is a screwdriver. 

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49 minutes ago, Wendy C. said:

The difference now is that Woby is a pet, and Bernie is something akin to a Shadow Creature, given pseudo-life from Insanity Magic. Neither of them are people, or even sapient. And Lucy is a person, but she is also an inanimate object. 

Abigail on the other hand is a person, and capable, and willing to do follow her own agenda. That agenda is to help me survive, which we achieve by working together in unison. Woby/Bernie are tools, and objects of manipulation to achieve an objective. 

Abigail is my sister. Woby is a screwdriver. 

This doesn't make sense. Abigail being Wendy's sister in the lore doesn't make her a special case for in game balance. Also, saying Woby is a "screwdriver" is not the best way to convice someone another follower, like Abigail, should be treated differently than said "screwdriver" simply because it was a human and not a dog or teddy bear in the past life.

Wilbur is a chimpazee, should he be treated differently than other survivors when considering game balance? For all we know Klei could've made Woby a survivor like Wilbur is, they are capable of it, but they chose to make her as part of Walter's kit and she is balanced accordingly to it, so should be followers that are part of any characters's kits. 

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1 minute ago, Picklesaurus said:

Wilbur is a chimpazee, should he be treated differently than other survivors when considering game balance? 

Wilbur is, however, sapient and self-aware; capable of using machinery and of using magic. He can even speak and read and write (since he can use blueprints and build signs). 

Woby is a dog. She can be ridden like a Beefalo, used for storage like Chetser, and is all but completely worthless in combat. This is because she is a pet, and nothing more. As a matter of fact, Walter cannot use the Critters specifically because he is listed as already having one. 

My only point in all of this was that people mistreat Abigail, and she doesn't deserve it. 

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3 minutes ago, Wendy C. said:

Wilbur is, however, sapient and self-aware; capable of using machinery and of using magic. He can even speak and read and write (since he can use blueprints and build signs). 

Can Abigail use machinery, magic, read or build blueprints and signs in game? If they wanted they could've made Woby sapient and capable of these things, this is not the point, the point is that aside from lore they are a game's characters and so are bound to some sort of balance around the game's mechanics, in their case intrinsically related to their partness; Wendy and Walter.
 

13 minutes ago, Wendy C. said:

My only point in all of this was that people mistreat Abigail, and she doesn't deserve it. 

 

1 hour ago, Wendy C. said:

Woby is a screwdriver

 

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Nah its fine. Any boss with AOE destroys abigail and wendy Completly. 

Plus wigfrid is already having alot of powers to herself. I dont think she needs more. 

Also abigail is only there to help kill mobs and she does so very well. She dosent need a change. If she was meant to be used differntly than they would have given her more abilities than just atacking. 

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4 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

Can Abigail use machinery, magic, read or build blueprints and signs in game?

She is a ghost and is unable to interact with those things; but if she were living, she would be just as capable of doing them. 
Woby doesn't have the faculties to do so whatsoever. 
Again. Abigail is a person. Woby is a dog. 

This argument will go in circles forever. 

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3 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

She is a ghost and is unable to interact with those things; but if she were living, she would be just as capable of doing them. 
Woby doesn't have the faculties to do so whatsoever. 
Again. Abigail is a person. Woby is a dog. 

This argument will go in circles forever. 

Balacing the game has nothing to do with the character being a human, a ghost, a dog, a teddy bear, etc.
Those things give ideas for the mechanics they'll possibly have, but those mechanics should still be balanced around the context they are in .You can't choose abigail from the select screen and play her like you can do with another survivor, if you could she would be balanced around it.

I understand she deservers respect, as deserves any character in DST, that doesn't mean she should be treated differently when considering balance and that she is linked to Wendy's balance.

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On 12/22/2020 at 1:06 AM, Cheggf said:

She might not be able to do everything herself, but Wendy can. 

  • Infinite free light.
  • By far the best AoE damage in the game, capable of easily defeating enormous waves of spiders, splumonkeys, bees, and even hounds and beefalo. Incomparably good at amassing ridiculously insane amounts of nightmare fuel, morsels, stingers, honey silk, monster meat, etc. She's so good at AoE damage that if the group of enemies is big enough a single Wendy would probably be better than 8 non-Wendys working together to kill them all.
  • The second most single target damage in the game.
  • The ability to fight fights without fighting fights, since Abigail can do most things on her own and just have you watch.
  • Easier sanity management.
  • Probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

If any character is overpowered and in need of a nerf it's Wendy. I don't know if the petals debuff should be moved over to Wigfrid, though.

Another huge benefit is that Abigail takes almost no maintenence and is self-sufficient. She has more HP than any other survivor in the game by doing absolutely nothing for 3 days

You can make a few tonics to make Abigail better but even at base stats she  performs at a level that isn't ''the best'' but ''way better than average'', even the most overpowered characters need to be set up to do their job, Wolf needs way more food which is an inventory space consideration. WX has to find his gears, and find a surplus of them to guarantee immortality and needs to find ways to get hit by lightning without Wicker etc.

 

Wendy? Just throw Abigail out and she plays 70% of the game for you, and does it at an above average level and she heals herself. And her petals now make her extremely useful party member for bossing which was the only area she was lacking in.

 

She has everything bundled into one character, at an above average level of the standard cast. Anyone that can kind of outperform her has to do  a lot more work to get there. It's baffling to see people act like Wendy needs this much power.

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4 hours ago, Wendy C. said:
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She IS op but you dont want to see it.

Wendy doesnt suffer from hound atacks, worms waves, monkeys (actually she should farm these), frogs, bunnies (she can kill alone arround 15 if is night), she can kill antlion without help, so good damage to clean ruins (and with little of knowledge you can use her for tank bishops), adds a lot of dps in non aoe boss fights, etc

If you fail there is no problem because she can summoned at any problem and will be full power in few days

Her only drawback are shadows and arent the most difficult enemy to handle +having 200 sanity a sistrum and less sanity drain and few weak bosses

4 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

excellent teamwork

What teamwork if abi kills without help because she has +40 aoe damage per second?

 

 

 

Edit: this doesnt mean that i want her debuff removed, more like nerfing her damage

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4 hours ago, Wendy C. said:
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The first 4 of the 5 bullet-points you listed are not "Wendy" powers, they're Abigail's powers that we work together to take advantage of. 
This brings me back to what I always say; Abigail is her own person with her own abilities. I am able to take full advantage of her abilities because we are Twins, but if I was ever without Abigail I would not be able to do any of the things you just described (except for the sanity management, which is truly my own power). 
These things considered, we are not overpowered, we simply have excellent teamwork upon which to maximize profit. Her attacks are shared with every other ghost you find from digging graves or full moons. The only thing truly unique to her is her shield and her booster-petals. With that in mind, I think it is more appropriate to consider Abigail simply another Survivor (Or as Klei put it, "The Persist-er") with whom I am designed to synergize with.
Which is why I don't think her booster petals should be removed, because they encourage other people to work together with us. People just abandon Abigail and expect her to do all the work for them. She has a health bar just as you do, and she has limitations. 
I suppose I don't really have a point here other than to say that people often disrespect Abigail. They either far under-estimate her capabilities, or FAR FAR over-estimate her power; both of which are counter-intuitive to treating her like an equal member of the group. 

calm the roleplay down a bit there

abigail is a friendly mob, nothing more.

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15 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:
 

She IS op but you dont want to see it.

Wendy doesnt suffer from hound atacks, worms waves, monkeys (actually she should farm these), frogs, bunnies (she can kill alone arround 15 if is night), she can kill antlion without help, so good damage to clean ruins (and with little of knowledge you can use her for tank bishops), adds a lot of dps in non aoe boss fights, etc

If you fail there is no problem because she can summoned at any problem and will be full power in few days

Her only drawback are shadows and arent the most difficult enemy to handle +having 200 sanity a sistrum and less sanity drain and few weak bosses

What teamwork if abi kills without help because she has +40 aoe damage per second?

 

 

 

Edit: this doesnt mean that i want her debuff removed, more like nerfing her damage

 

Much misinformation. 
Such wow. 

It's not that I don't "suffer" from Hound attacks or Worm waves, it's that they're easier to deal with. As the hound waves get bigger and bigger, they become harder to deal with; even for Abigail. To say I do not suffer from them at all is blatantly wrong. 
Killing bunnies is still very tedious and slow, because we have to chase them one-at-a-time. Abigail can kill them faster than other survivors, but doing so isn't efficient or the best use of time. And digging up rabbits at night just to kill them is such a FANTASTIC waste of rabbit-dens, it's actually impressive how wasteful it is. 
No, Abigail cannot kill Antlion without help. I've done it. Abigail still requires help in the form of potions and boosts and healing, which requires resources and preparation time, just like any other boss battle. And even so, what does it matter? Every single character in the entire game can kill every boss back-to-back if they are given enough preparation time and know what they're doing. 
If she is defeated, the ENTIRE battle is put on hold because I am incredibly vulnerable without her help. I can't just walk away from a Misery Toadstool battle if Abigail is defeated. Losing her is a major blow to my ability to fight effectively. 
And her +40 damage A.O.E is only a major asset if she can actually USE the A.O.E. Otherwise it's just a +40 damage attack. Which isn't all that impressive against a single-target when Wolfgang and Wigfrid exist. Which is where the teamwork comes in; Abigail needs my help when we're single-attacking a boss. They have THOUSANDS of health. It is incredibly unrealistic to say Abigail can do it completely alone. Especially since most single-target bosses have their OWN A.O.E with which to use against Abigail and I. 

This has also gotten amazingly off-topic, so we need to stop this. 

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