Slugging Power

[KittenIsAGeek]

OK, so .. here's some math for ideas around powering a base off of the new power slugs.

First, some assumptions and observations:

1. Slugs only provide power at night.
2. A cycle is 600 seconds, 75 of which is night.  That leaves 525 seconds of daylight when no power is produced.
3. Jumbo batteries leak 2kj of power per cycle.
4. 1 watt is 1 joule per second of power.
5. Slugs produce less power when hungry, decreasing more the hungrier they get.
6. Slugs power production is also hampered by overcrowding, but not by cramping.
7. Assuming slugs "plug in" right at nightfall (they don't always, sometimes they have to climb).
8. Assuming slugs are well-fed.
9. Assuming slugs aren't overcrowded.

A well-fed wild slug produces 400 watts of power.  A well-fed tame slug produces 1600 watts.  

My stable currently has 7 slugs.  During the 75 seconds of night, they produce a total of 840,000 joules of power.  Each jumbo battery holds 40kj of power, so this means I need 21 batteries to hold their power.  At 2kj of power loss per cycle, 21 batteries will lose 42kj of power.  That leaves roughly 800,000 joules to power devices (I'm rounding because math in my head is easier that way.)  800,000 joules burned over 600 seconds is 1333 and 1/3rd watts.  A tuned hydrogen generator produces 1200 watts and a tuned nat gas generator produces 1600 watts.  Therefore, my slug ranch (provided I can find the metal to build another 15 batteries) is the equivalent of a continually running tuned-up generator -- before even considering the hydrogen.

OK, so, here's some more assumptions. 

1. Hatches that eat rocks consume 100kg quantities.  We'll assume the slug does the same.
2. Slugs excrete 5% of consumed mass as hydrogen -- so each slug fart is 5kg of hydrogen.
3. Slugs eat and fart once a day.

7 slugs, then, will eat 700kg of metal ore per cycle and release 35kg of hydrogen per cycle.  A hydrogen generator burns 100g/s of hydrogen while operating.  A continually operating hydrogen generator will burn 60kg of hydrogen over the period of one cycle.  That means that 7 slugs can keep a hydrogen generator running 58% of the time.  Assuming the generator is tuned up, that's 1200 watts while operational.  With a 58% up-time, that comes out to about 700 watts.

If I count the hydrogen, my seven slug ranch will provide 2033 and 1/3rd watts of power continually.  If I increase it to 8, it works out to ..  1520+800 = 2320 watts of continual power, but I'll need 24 batteries instead of 21.  

Clearly the only problem here is ... where do I get more metal ore?  =^.^=

Spoiler

Here's my current under-utilized power farm. They're producing a lot more power than I am using as there are only 6 batteries currently on my grid.

OK, so.. now I need to re-design my ranch.  The grooming station only works in a stable, so we're limited to a room size of 96, which limits the total number of slugs to 8.  I can either make it normal (4x24), or I can make it tall (12x8)... or... if we make the room 2 tall, we can make it 48 units long.  With a cut-out for the grooming station, this would reduce the length to 47 units.  The grooming station and the critter feeder take a total of 3 units width, reducing our "battery space" to 44 units.  This means a slug stable can hold 22 jumbo batteries.  We can ALMOST fit all the batteries we need inside the stable itself.

In my older base designs, I would often have a 2-high hallway somewhere near the middle of my base that functioned as a utility conduit.  Heavi-watt wire, and sometimes liquid or gas pipes, would run through that area.  I can now use the same space as a slug ranch.  The downside of that design would be the long travel time required for any particular slug to get to the ceiling.  A "worst case" scenario would be a slug starting from the center on the floor and needing to go up a wall and past 7 other slugs to find a place to rest.  In this particular room design, that would be 7+2+(47/2) or 32 units of movement.  The minimal travel design would be 8x12 or 6x16, where a worst-case would be 7+8+(12/2) or 7+6+(8/2) -- both of which are 21 units.  The "tall" design mentioned above (12x8) gives a worst-case travel of 23 units, the same as a 'normal' 4x24 design.  

If each unit of travel takes 1 second, then the difference between worse-case scenarios between the '2-high battery filled' design and either of the minimal travel designs is 11 seconds, or roughly 14.7% of the power production time.  Clearly the better design for power is to have a lot of wasted space.  Alternatively, a design with a bunch of shelves could maximize 'ceiling' space while minimizing 'floor travel' space. For example, a design like below would have a worst-case travel of 13 or 14 units, saving an extra 8 to 9 seconds of power production time.

Spoiler

The drawback here is that to groom a slug, you're looking at potentially waiting a full minute for the slug to travel from the ceiling down to the grooming station.... 

Does anyone have suggestions to improve my conceptual design?  Any thoughts about my design overall?  

[ghkbrew]

If you make sure that the only output from the slug/battery circuit is a single small transformer you can use cheap 1kW wire without overloads. But you're limit to a continuous power draw of 1kW (about half a ranch's worth by your numbers), though the slugs can charge as fast as they want. It may be worth changing to 2kW wire and 2 small transformers.

Travel times in the long ranch design can be shortened by adding spots where the slug can jump from floor to ceiling.

As a comparison, what's the power output of 8 hatches converting 50% of their food to coal?

[Red Shark]

1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

  Hide contents

The drawback here is that to groom a slug, you're looking at potentially waiting a full minute for the slug to travel from the ceiling down to the grooming station.... 

Does anyone have suggestions to improve my conceptual design?  Any thoughts about my design overall?  

Slugs will not overlap batteries while sleeping, and batteries don't need to be in the same room as the slugs, so a design like this adds a lot of complexity and necessitates a lot of wiggly math assumptions for rather little gain.

A better choice, perhaps, would be to have a "water lock" in the bottom of the room that lets the room expand to the maximum size for ranching, but limits the pathing of the slugs (who don't normally enter water tiles). At least, I think that works -- it's been a while but I thought I had Shinebugs sequestered like that at one point.

Have you considered submersing the batteries in steam? (And building them out of steel) They do heat up proportionately to how many joules they lose.

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 minute ago, Red Shark said:

A better choice, perhaps, would be to have a "water lock" in the bottom of the room

I had forgotten about that particular mechanic.  That would be the best solution -- a room just big enough for the slugs to hang from the wire, separated by a water lock to a room that is large enough that they don't feel over-crowded.  Good idea!  Also, I didn't know slugs wouldn't overlap batteries, but that does make sense.

2 minutes ago, Red Shark said:

Have you considered submersing the batteries in steam? (And building them out of steel) They do heat up proportionately to how many joules they lose.

My swamp biome has a polluted slush geyser and a slush brine geyser... The heat from the batteries isn't a problem -- its an advantage.  I have nowhere NEAR the heating capabilities to make steam on this map.  Not yet, anyway.

[Rainbowdesign]

2 hours ago, Red Shark said:

 

Have you considered submersing the batteries in steam? (And building them out of steel) They do heat up proportionately to how many joules they lose.

When steam turbines are ready and there is a magma bottom i find little use for slug-power then.

[Tsabo]

5 minutes ago, Rainbowdesign said:

When steam turbines are ready and there is a magma bottom i find little use for slug-power then.

Incidentally, I'm currently doing an all-achievements run (the relevant one for this post being Super Sustainable) on a Frozen Core map, and now I envy the dead.

[Coolthulhu]

2 hours ago, Tsabo said:

Incidentally, I'm currently doing an all-achievements run (the relevant one for this post being Super Sustainable) on a Frozen Core map, and now I envy the dead.

Spam solars. Even if all their power goes to waste, you'll grind SS much faster.

Also, it seems that Klei wants to incentivize "solar during the day, slugs at night" combo, considering all the free glass at mapgen.

4 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

That would be the best solution -- a room just big enough for the slugs to hang from the wire, separated by a water lock to a room that is large enough that they don't feel over-crowded.

Though this won't completely eliminate travel time, since they still have to path to a grooming station.

Everything would be so much simpler if grooming was more like farmer's touching. Especially that groom time loss due to critter AI failing at high CPU load.

[Sith515]

The math is a wee bit off because slugs eat 60 kg ore per cycle and fart 3kg h2 per cycle.

So it's less ore consumed (420 blaze it for 7 slugs and 480 for full ranch of 8) and less h2 farted (21 kg for 7 slugs) sooooo

[TripleM999]

You could build a 8-tile wide platform for the slugs in the room, were they get groomed and where they sleep, separate it from rest of room via ladders. Something like this:

This is only an example. The rest of the room can be totally freeform.

[misotoma]

So I took a second look at hatches (normal variant) they consume 140kg/cycle of raw mineral of which they excrete 50% the mass consumed as coal.  Which means a ranch of 8 hatches produce 560kg/cycle of coal. 

A coal generator produces 600W and consumes 600kg/cycle of coal.. so you need 8.5 hatches to keep it running continuously (why Klei?) for those asking about hatches they only generate 600W of continuous energy.

So you would need 4 hatch ranches or 4,480kg/cycle of raw mineral vs. 700kg/cycle of metal ore (didn't account for the 3kg of hydrogen)

am i right with my numbers?

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 hours ago, Sith515 said:

slugs eat 60 kg ore per cycle and fart 3kg h2 per cycle.

I couldn't find what their actual consumption was, so I ran with what I knew about hatches.  Thanks for helping me out!

[beowulf2010]

2 hours ago, misotoma said:

So I took a second look at hatches (normal variant) they consume 140kg/cycle of raw mineral of which they excrete 50% the mass consumed as coal.  Which means a ranch of 8 hatches produce 560kg/cycle of coal. 

A coal generator produces 600W and consumes 600kg/cycle of coal.. so you need 8.5 hatches to keep it running continuously (why Klei?) for those asking about hatches they only generate 600W of continuous energy.

So you would need 4 hatch ranches or 4,480kg/cycle of raw mineral vs. 700kg/cycle of metal ore (didn't account for the 3kg of hydrogen)

am i right with my numbers?

Sounds about right. My usual 4 ranches of Stone Hatches runs 4 coal generators nearly 100% and generates excess coal once I get a natural gas geyser hooked into my grid.

 

10 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Clearly the only problem here is ... where do I get more metal ore?  =^.^=

Ain't this the truth...

8 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Also, I didn't know slugs wouldn't overlap batteries, but that does make sense.

They don't overlap any buildings, nor each other. Agreed, it makes sense but was a bit disappointing as we can't to 2 tall rooms for the Plugslugs with batteries in them unless we "waste" room to have space for the slugs to hang.

[psusi]

How many cycles do you think it will be before you run out of metal ore burning more than half a ton per cycle?  This is not at all viable.  No, you just have to starvation ranch them, even though the output is lower.

4 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

Also, it seems that Klei wants to incentivize "solar during the day, slugs at night" combo, considering all the free glass at mapgen.

They got rid of the free glass a patch or two ago.

9 hours ago, ghkbrew said:

If you make sure that the only output from the slug/battery circuit is a single small transformer you can use cheap 1kW wire without overloads. But you're limit to a continuous power draw of 1kW (about half a ranch's worth by your numbers), though the slugs can charge as fast as they want. It may be worth changing to 2kW wire and 2 small transformers.

You can put a 4kw transformer on that 1kw battery circuit and pulse it on and off every other second and it won't overload the wire.  Feed that into a smart battery transformer flipper and you can power two separate 1kw circuits with very little refined metal.

[Sith515]

Just now, psusi said:

you just have to starvation ranch them

Except starving tame slugs give zero watts

Just now, psusi said:

They got rid of the free glass a patch or two ago.

There's enough for like 4-5 panels.

[ghkbrew]

8 minutes ago, Sith515 said:

10 minutes ago, psusi said:

you just have to starvation ranch them

Except starving tame slugs give zero watts

They only give 0W when they run out of calories. You'll get high (full?) production for the first few cycles of their life and then it will drop to zero as they slowly starve.

That's power that doesn't require any resource input, besides dupe labor for grooming. But given the pitiful yields with current starvation ranch slugs, I think you're better off with a hamster wheel.

[psusi]

3 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

That's power that doesn't require any resource input, besides dupe labor for grooming. But given the pitiful yields with current starvation ranch slugs, I think you're better off with a hamster wheel.

Wasn't it better NOT to groom them?  Just let them slowly starve and collect free power.  Grooming them makes them starve sooner.

[ghkbrew]

1 minute ago, psusi said:

Wasn't it better NOT to groom them? 

It was. But isn't there a production penalty for glum status now?

You have to groom them some ore they won't reproduce. Or I guess you could feed them 1kg every 10 cycle until they lay an egg, but they won't be producing any power for most of that.

[avc15]

8 wild slugs averages to one hamster wheel operated continuously. Or really maybe about 95% of that because of extra battery losses.

I find slugs useful to reduce dupe labor in the very beginning of the game; it's like having half an extra dupe. Takes all that running on a wheel and turns it into a single delivery errand each day.

But I don't like ranching them. Have done, not a huge fan. BUT - there's some potential to use them to fill the production gap in solar power. With solar+slugs you could almost completely eliminate batteries on your system. Similar to how real power systems balance renewable power.

1 hour ago, ghkbrew said:

You have to groom them some ore they won't reproduce. Or I guess you could feed them 1kg every 10 cycle until they lay an egg, but they won't be producing any power for most of that.

What I've done in the past is put just 2 in a groomed ranch with automation to move eggs to an un-tended ranch. When one of your breeders dies, wrangle one in from the other room.

[TripLykely]

8 hours ago, TripleM999 said:

You could build a 8-tile wide platform for the slugs in the room, were they get groomed and where they sleep, separate it from rest of room via ladders. Something like this:

This is only an example. The rest of the room can be totally freeform.

This is how set it up, a room big enough for a grooming station and feeder with open doors. Most are never in the room but they stay happy and generating power never leaving the island

[sakura_sk]

I would suggest to spit the farm in two (if you need to groom 8 slugs). I usually not groom more than 2, in separate rooms and leave some spare wild ones. If you don't have a mechatronics engineer yet or you prefer less automation, you could at least hook up a cycle sensor to grooming stations, setting it to only day hours. Slugs could be left glum for a day (generate 320wat) but they will not start generating 1600 for a second and then interrupted to get groomed.

Here is the setup in my last base:

Spoiler

 

Because swamp is usually too cold, I put an open air electrolyzer and collect hydrogen of both slugs and electolyzer. I had to put an infinite storage though, because at some point hydrogen was to much to consume and clogged the system...

I put every extra tame slug in a room to produce.. .whatever.

(screenshots taken when the two tame slugs had died and some time passed until I noticed and replaced them. Usually there are 7-8 tame starving slugs producing 0-240 watts)

Also 4 solar panels, 6 emergency only hydrogen generators and 2 of which are tuned and aid whenever metal/oxylite refinery drain all batteries

 

*below screenshot of another colony's tame plug slug surplus starving production (two tame feeding ones producing 1600 most of the time.. like above)

 

 

[Soulwind]

FYI - Slugs will definitely cross a water-lock.  I tried using one to keep an "open" room with very small space for them to move in, but they just immediately left the room and started wandering around.

[The Plum Gate]

@KittenIsAGeek, nice original post!

It seems like I could probably get away with taming fewer plug slugs in the early game. I have let mine run wild in containment but my power requirements haven't exceeded the initial starter wiring and the one large dumb battery to one plug slug ratio has worked out well so far.

These little critters look fit for far off places.

[Tsabo]

17 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

Spam solars. Even if all their power goes to waste, you'll grind SS much faster.

Appreciate the hint, but as I mention elsewhere, I think Solar is by far the most expensive electricity in the base game.

I would much rather go up to 100 dupes and put them on 24/7 hamster wheels then venture out onto the surface.

[KittenIsAGeek]

I was apparently over-thinking things earlier.  Here's my current stable for 8 slugs.  Its not quite finished yet, but travel times for both grooming and sleeping are low.

Spoiler

I'll add automation later to keep the eggs up top.  Right now I don't care if they fall on the floor -- I'll just wrangle the slug after it hatches and move it back onto the ledge.

[Coolthulhu]

On 12/18/2020 at 4:14 AM, Tsabo said:

Appreciate the hint, but as I mention elsewhere, I think Solar is by far the most expensive electricity in the base game.

It's not exactly relevant to the expansion.