How would you rework Wickerbottom?

[Monkey Cups]

Given all the Applied Horticulture debates lately I'm curious.

I don't have too many ideas myself, mostly because at this point I'm not even sure what kind of character Wicker is supposed to be. She's a librarian but her books (and Forge abilities when that was around) make her out to be something more like a witch. She's not focused on just magic though since she has the science buff and can craft things earlier than other characters. Is she a magic character or a crafting one? The only thing people seem to agree on regarding her is that her downsides are so small that they're practically forgettable.

She needs something. Some sort of change to make her more focused and more fun to play. I just have no idea what that something would be.

[Ohan]

delete all her books. reduce stats to 1 Hunger 1 Sanity 2 Health. Give them something real to whine about 

[Well-met]

I don't think many people at all have the necessary experience, knowledge or sense of balance to seriously debate the wicker refresh.

I'll leave that up to Klei or the few trusted members of the community.

[Monkey Cups]

2 minutes ago, Ohan said:

delete all her books. 1 Hunger 1 Sanity 2 Health. Give them something real to whine about 

Why not also throw in this while you're at it.

[SuperMeatGoy]

I would want to see more of her books having actual practical applications instead of being very niche or for cheesing bosses.

[Ohan]

Just now, Monkey Cups said:

Haha, why not also throw in this wile you're at it.

Y E S! LOL 

[kuroite]

-Increase crafting ressources

-Lower number of use

-Lower the range

-Unable to cast under certain amount of sanity

-Craft available only near pseudoscience station or lunar altar (dont know which book)

-Harder to regain sanity

-Shadow creature deal more damage to her

 

Not sure for the last 2.

[Scrimbles]

Wicker kinda lacks a core gameplay hook unique to herself, her books dont make up for any of her flaws and arent really integral to her gameplay.

Just like Winona, her craftables could easily be given to any character and nothing would be lost in the transition.

Wicker lacks an impactful downside, she cant sleep, but sleep is an under used mechanic that isnt that great in DST since it doesnt act as a time skip, and her stale/spoiled food penalty is hardly much of an issue, seemingly even for newer players. 

 

I've slowly been working on a research system for Wicker, where you suffer penalties against a lot of things until you "research" and make notes (through a Wicker exclusive resource), I think that would create a cool and unique dynamic that is befitting of her character. Its hard to find a proper balance though.

You could even share notes for unique bonuses, theres a lot of potential with a librarian/cataloguing character, id be super excited to see that aspect be pushed, instead of just... more magic books.

[WainingWabbits]

Honestly, at this point i would just rework her applied apiculture book to grow up to 15 plants per read, and that's all.. 

I usually like simple character designs, i don't like game mechanics/designs that are overcomplicated or oversaturated..

If i were in charge for all characters' designs, i would most likely revert the latest character reworks, keep them as close to their original design as possible, adjusting them here and there to keep them balanced, while adding some little perks for group play.. 

[VioletVorti]

I think a good downside for her would be to lower her over all max health to something like 125 or heck even 100, she is an old lady after all.

 

Also I agree with making it where she has to have the right amount of sanity to cast her books, it helps balance out the books

[Fuffles]

besides Minor Changes they probably wont do much.

Problem with a member of "the holy trinity" is the community has high expectations and enjoys her op books already. When you see how the community reacted by going insane to a change to one of the books you know she's in the worst area for a character to be. Once you taste how overpowered a character can be, its hard to accept change, even a small nerf.

[Mike23Ua]

More books, forge style directional casting of said books, harder to get ingredients in the crafting of said books that utilize decades old and a combination of the newer Return of Them content such as Slurtle Slim and Seaweed Barnacles.

(Aka a proper and balanced Wicker Nerf)

She’s old and fragile she should hit weaker than Wendy and also probably not be able to eat hard foods because of a comment Maxwell makes about Cooked Jerky Meat..

Also Despite what the “Experts” say her inability to sleep is still pretty harsh on Newbie and Intermediate skilled players so she doesn’t need a quote “real downside” she already Has one... 

Reworks are meant to make characters more fun and unique and to help them feel vastly different from playing another-

Giving them ALL character specific resources they need to go to X location and get Y ingredient for Z purpose would be a good way of getting characters to participate in certain parts of the game because their characters design encourages them to go there and interact with that content.

Just like how Wendy communes with Pipspook in a Graveyard for Mourning Glory, and Wigfrid has to make trips to Sea for Spittle Fish for Fireproof Song Scroll..

I would’ve loved for Wigfrids rework to have had a higher chance for pigs to drop Championship belts.. like how Woodie has a higher chance to spawn Treeguards- but it’s fine as is I think.

Wickerbottom doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground, she just needs rarer materials in her crafting of books and maybe some new books altogether.

[ShadowDuelist]

As for downsides I wouldn't go too strong, just touching a few things on the numbers would probably make sense. If you play her in an advanced way (Kiting and avoiding damage, bundling your foods, restoring your stats through good food, etc) you should still be able to avoid all of them.

• Keep her unable to sleep perk. When she is forced to sleep (mandrake, bearger yawn, moon shrooms, ghestalts, etc) the groggyness effect could possibly last longer on her. 
• Lower her max HP to 125, like at the forge (She's an old lady)
• Give her a 5% damage penalty received (again, old lady). It would work like the opposite of Wigfrid's defense buff.   
  Spoiler

  EG: Log suit protects for 80%, receives a 100 damage hit, out of the take 20 damage that pass through the armor, her penalty applies so she ends up taking 21 instead.
  
  This extra would apply to all damage sources, like fire, cold, hunger, poisonous food, etc. Most mage characters tend to be weaker physically than the average character, usually compensated by their magic skills

• Increase her food penalty: Green (fresh) food works normally on her. Yellow (stale) food restores no hunger or health and damages her sanity. Red (spoiled) food just damages her hunger, health and sanity.

 

I don't like the idea I've read many times that she requires a certain amount of sanity to cast spell books: It would force us to cast spells, eat cooked cactii, cast spell again, etc.
It's not really a downside, just a nuisance. 

For new perks I'd like to see new magic effects being used on her books, perhaps things that haven't been touched on DST yet, or magic effects that synergize with each other:

• Brief invisibility for allies in a tiny area, so long as they don't attack or get attacked: An escape, or stealth approach to some situations.
• Petrification tome like at the forge (immobilizing enemies, or petrifying some trees in a small target area). Petrified enemies could maybe take less damage for its duration. Giants may only be slowed down briefly.
• Casting heavy rain in a small area (it has been suggested before, not my idea)
• Casting strong winds around the caster of the book for X time, having various effects:
  Spoiler

  1. Enemies affected by the wind area (near the player that casted it) will get frozen with less shots of the ice staff, freezing pellets, or flingomatic snowballs. 
  2. Faster movement and turn of boats propelled by sails , so long as the caster of the spell has it active while navigating on it.
  3. Slower movement speed for the caster for its duration (the sandstorm movement penalty, except that this one should not be prevented with any hat). Also the caster will get randomly frozen if used during winter. Allied players will not be directly affected in any way (no trolling allies with it). 
  4. Being in the sandstorm with this effect would actually protect you and let you have almost normal visibility for its duration. You will still be slowed by your own effect.

   

• Rework "the end is nigh" to be an actual crowd control book, so the lightning deals stun effect on enemies instead of fire. Wet enemies could take a longer stun effect for the lightning hits. It would work the same as always on WX (So in the remote event that this happens, WX mains don't kill me)

 

[Datanon]

i think she needs some kind of lore before she can have anything creative changing in her kit. she certainly doesn't seem like your everyday librarian

[JosePapp]

Give her the Warbucks treatment.

[Maxposting]

54 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Giving them ALL character specific resources they need to go to X location and get Y ingredient for Z purpose would be a good way of getting characters to participate in certain parts of the game because their characters design encourages them to go there and interact with that content.

 

you clearly didn't think this through.

[.]

18 hours ago, Ohan said:

delete all her books. reduce stats to 1 Hunger 1 Sanity 2 Health. Give them something real to whine about 

No joke, this is what society is wanting from Klei. She should be allergic to foods. When she eat something she should lose 2 health.

[DarkPulse91]

They should make all her books cost only 1 papyrus! Oh! And all her books should have infinite use! Yeah! OH!! and then make it so she can also craft alchemy tier crafting recipes from the start as well! OH OH OH!! then make it so She gains a bonus for eating fresh dishes, you know, because she hates spoiled ones!!

[bruhmoment23]

25 minutes ago, DarkPulse91 said:

They should make all her books cost only 1 papyrus! Oh! And all her books should have infinite use! Yeah! OH!! and then make it so she can also craft alchemy tier crafting recipes from the start as well! OH OH OH!! then make it so She gains a bonus for eating fresh dishes, you know, because she hates spoiled ones!!

So basically this 

[Cheggf]

I think adding fun to play around downsides would be much more interesting than nerfing her upsides. 

[FrozenMountan]

the insta tier 1 science that she has should probably be given to someone like wilson or wagstaff if he ever comes to dst

[thegreatJash]

She chops mines and digs slower, because she is an old lady.

[Monkey Cups]

19 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I don't like the idea I've read many times that she requires a certain amount of sanity to cast spell books: It would force us to cast spells, eat cooked cactii, cast spell again, etc.

It's not really a downside, just a nuisance.

I don't see how that would be any different from any other game that has a mana bar. The only game I can ever remember playing that didn't have some kind of finite magic pool you need to regen was Magicka.

[Erineyes7]

Give her something gameplay wise, none of her books affect her main gameplay loop, she currently lacks any sort of core gameplay change. The characters should be unique without they're items for the most part, wicker just kinda isn't. The sleep thing and spoiled food should stay 100%, and if they want her to be centered around her crafts, they should have more use for sure, The end is nigh has no practical use outside of overcharging WX, which is kinda ridiculous imo. Birds of the world is super niche and requires sleepy time stories to even be decent, the rest are pretty decent, but barely effect gameplay.

I also can't get over how one of wickers books was NERFED, and everybody lost it, it wasn't removed, it was nerfed. I think what Klei did to fix this was great, but apparently people still find it an issue? Calling wicker dead, despite it only being one of her abilities, that's were the real problem lies. That wicker is nothing without Horticulture to them.

[Blue Moth]

Make her "can't sleep" perk actually mean something. It should be both a downside and an upside. Make it so she is no longer put to "sleep" by bearger yawn, gestalts, mandrakes, other players using pan flute or sleep dart in PVP, etc. It makes 0 sense to just plop down on the ground wide awake when a huge monster yawns.