How do YOU define the difference between "cheese" and "cheating"?

[. . .]

31 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Cheating does exist not only in DST

no, there is no such a thing as cheating in dst. cheating means someone joins a klei official server and moves at 10x speed and can kill people when pvp is off and spawning in items that is what cheating means and i have never ever seen a cheater in dst in the thousands of servers i went in and thousands of hours i played.

abusing console commands is not actual cheating at worst it just means you are a noob that you have to resort to the noobiest way of playing the game. real cheating is when you go in a game and somebody has aimbot and noscopes you from the other side of the map that is what cheating is.

modding is not cheating either, its using mods unless the mod is used for giving unfair advantages in public online servers which closest "cheat" mods is client mod for seeing where dirtpiles are or having map icons for stuff like mushrooms which are sad excuses for cheats

but there is lots of cheesing in dst the entire game is made of cheese almost

[CaptainChaotica]

Cheesing = using any method or object that already exists within the regular game code.  This includes making the world-gen settings easier in the beginning.

Cheating = (Unbalanced) mods and console commands.

Examples:

Spawning tentacles on the Fuelweaver by playing as Wickerbottom and having gone through the trouble to get the ingredients for the "On Tentacles" book and taking the sanity hit like normal when you cast it:  Cheesing.  (You also don't HAVE to _fight_ tentacles to get the ingredients--for example you might find tentacle spots just lying on the ground where one was killed by Merms.)

Making tentacles just magically spawn out of the ground without cost because LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL = cheating.

Now, whether you think it's okay to do either one is up to you, but personally I have less respect for _myself_ if I use console commands, for anything that actually matters.  It also very much does make a difference whether you're playing by yourself or with others, as your actions will affect more people the second way.  Rollbacks would be cheating in DS but not DST, since it's openly provided by the normal game code!

...Notorious

[1bubbainpa]

Everyone in this game will have a different definition of cheesing because people will do whatever it takes to scratch their back on this game because for some reason, this game attracts a ton of elitists.

“Oh, you survived for a full year? Did you do it with a cheese character like Wolfgang?”

”Oh, you defeated Bee Queen? Come back when you’ve soloed her without any help.”

”You soloed Fuelweaver? Did you spam pierogies the whole time? How long did it take you?”

“You survived 200 days? Do it without eating food and I’ll be impressed.”

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 minutes ago, --- -.- said:

no, there is no such a thing as cheating in dst. cheating means someone joins a klei official server and moves at 10x speed and can kill people when pvp is off and spawning in items that is what cheating means and i have never ever seen a cheater in dst in the thousands of servers i went in and thousands of hours i played.

abusing console commands is not actual cheating at worst it just means you are a noob that you have to resort to the noobiest way of playing the game. real cheating is when you go in a game and somebody has aimbot and noscopes you from the other side of the map that is what cheating is.

modding is not cheating either, its using mods unless the mod is used for giving unfair advantages in public online servers which closest "cheat" mods is client mod for seeing where dirtpiles are or having map icons for stuff like mushrooms which are sad excuses for cheats

but there is lots of cheesing in dst the entire game is made of cheese almost

Cheating exist before multiplayer games. There is a lot of games with commands like vice city or how buggy are the dark souls bosses so you dont need another player to beat a game via 'cheetos''

 

[. . .]

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Cheating exist before multiplayer games.

using something thats in the game is not real cheating, real cheating is when u get external programs which modify the game or hacks that allow u to go on klei official server and replace everything that exists with poop

seeing so many ppl throw word cheating around here so lightly makes me sad

[Viktor234]

27 minutes ago, --- -.- said:

no, there is no such a thing as cheating in dst. cheating means someone joins a klei official server and moves at 10x speed and can kill people when pvp is off and spawning in items that is what cheating means and i have never ever seen a cheater in dst in the thousands of servers i went in and thousands of hours i played.

Cheating is literally what you said here, but just because you didn't manage to see a cheater in a Klei Official Server doesn't mean that there aren't any real cheaters in DST. Many cheaters also try to avoid being discovered, so they won't try to cheat right on your screen. Because if somebody spots them cheating, they might end up being banned from the game. But where's the need to apply that kind of cheats in a Klei Official Server? Also DST doesn't support something like a ranking system, it's not worth to cheat in DST or even for Klei to detect cheaters in DST.

What I can recommend you: Either play another ten thousand hours and be the lucky one who spots a cheater, or find somebody who has knowledge with cheating and is able to introduce real cheating to you.

Other perhaps helpful links not about DST but about cheating in other games:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_online_games
https://counterstrike.fandom.com/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat - I actually don't have any experience with this game, but it is a game where cheating is worth it for players

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

Everyone in this game will have a different definition of cheesing because people will do whatever it takes to scratch their back on this game because for some reason, this game attracts a ton of elitists.”

“Oh, you survived for a full year? Did you do it was a cheese character like Wolfgang?”

”Oh, you defeated Bee Queen? Come back when you’ve soloed her without any help.”

”You soloed Fuelweaver? Did you spam pierogies the whole time? How long did it take you?”

“You survived 200 days? Do it without eating food and I’ll be impressed.”

It’s a game.. play it the way you want to play it as long as YOUR way of playing does not interfere with MY Way of playing.

For example: Im going to put this into a spoiler tag because it’s Unrelated to DS/DST but HEAVILY Applies to any multiplayer game you Will ever play EVER- 

Spoiler

When I play State of Decay 2.. I tend to play on a Higher difficulty than Default, this is Important.. because if YOU join my game and you do stupid stuff  (Like Drive a car around wasting its gas, honking the horn attracting Zeds, Etc...) What YOUR Doing can directly impact ME and get my character Permanently killed FOREVER (Dying in SoD is a Permanent punishment.)

Ahem.. ANYWAY..  If What your doing Interferes with my personal enjoyment of the game I bought to play and enjoy.. then don’t be surprised at all when I boot you out of my game.  

Mods are another thing I highly Frown upon- I am intentionally playing SoD 2 on Nightmare Difficulty for its added challenge, Therefore I do not need you bringing your modded one shot kill guns into my world and effortlessly killing out my plague hearts for me.

Having said all that, I’m tired of people giving me confused reacts for wanting Klei to create a (completely separate from what your currently playing and enjoying now...) more challenging mode for DST. 
I like Somewhat hard open world survival games.. it’s what drew me into this franchise to begin with......

So you do your thing.. and let me do mine. Cheese or no cheese can’t we all just get along please? <3

[. . .]

8 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

just because you didn't manage to see a cheater in a Klei Official Server doesn't mean that there aren't any real cheaters in DST

actual cheating is basically impossible in dst if u mess with the games code and go in a official server the game will crash.

so unless someone puts a link to some cheats for dst which u can go on a server and use console commands and the like there is no such a thing as cheats in dst.

it probably possible for cheats to be made for dst but currently none exist and will never exist cause cheaters make cheats for games which the cheats actually can be used to annoy ppl like competitive fps games no one is going to make a cheat for some casual pve game

8 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Either play another ten thousand of years and be the lucky one who spots a cheater

i dont need to play another 10k years to no there is legit no cheat to exist for dst in the entire multiverse as of now cause it's literally honestly scientifically impossible and im not lying im really saying the truth it's impossible

[Well-met]

8 minutes ago, --- -.- said:

actual cheating is basically impossible in dst if u mess with the games code and go in a official server the game will crash.

so unless someone puts a link to some cheats for dst which u can go on a server and use console commands and the like there is no such a thing as cheats in dst.

it probably possible for cheats to be made for dst but currently none exist and will never exist cause cheaters make cheats for games which the cheats actually can be used to annoy ppl like competitive fps games no one is going to make a cheat for some casual pve game

i dont need to play another 10k years to no there is legit no cheat to exist for dst in the entire multiverse as of now cause it's literally honestly scientifically impossible and im not lying im really saying the truth it's impossible

going "lalala i can't hear you" doesn't change the way things are.

There is cheating in DST wheter you like it or not, and wheter you know where to look for or not.

you should stop embarassing yourself now.

[. . .]

7 minutes ago, Well-met said:

going "lalala i can't hear you" doesn't change the way things are.

lmao i can say same to ppl who think there is actual cheating in dst but ok man i'll just go get my special dst cheats and spawn in some diamonds in the klei servers and fly around cause there are cheats in dst, peace bro

7 minutes ago, Well-met said:

you should stop embarassing yourself now.

geez, thanks for caring about me so much, senpai UwU

[pedregales]

Cheese: abuse of in-game valid strategies that severely trivialize the game (e.g.: the indestructible objects for the lunar staff event, or even abusing meatballs count as "cheesing it" to me).

Personally, I don't mind many of these strategies and even find them quite ingenious and inventive, but it is easy to over-use them, ergo they become cheese. Although it is worth noting that the game itself might force players to "cheese", most notably is the crock pot and meatballs conundrum: the crock pot mechanic is considerably complex, and some recipes are not even worth making because they are either too complex or not good enough for the ingredients needed, but add to it how you have no idea how much a dish affects your stats unless you eat it with bad stats (example: if you have near full sanity, you will not know how good ice cream really is), and at the end of the day it is usually not worth remembering more than 5-7 recipes, among them there is dragon pie, bacon n' eggs, pierogies, ... and arguably the "best" of them all (due to how easy and effective it is), meatballs. A recipe book would be great to reduce the abuse of the same crock pot dishes. Yes, I know I have suggested the recipe book too many times in the past, and I will keep doing so until it is implemented!

Cheating: abuse of in-game code in any way (command line, mods*, ...) or even abuse of game mechanics in clearly unintended ways (for example, when you could lock yourself outside the land to fight some bosses).

*Even though mods are an amazing way to improve your game experience, it is also a way to bypass certain restrictions, which means anything you do with them enabled is "slightly less amazing". Although you could make a case for certain mods that do not bypass many or any restrictions (decorative mods) or even add restrictions (uncompromising mode mod), but even then.

[sinisterrkid]

So as you can see, it's pretty subjective.

[GetNerfedOn]

Imo, cheese is intelligent use of unintended game design, while cheats are anything used to gain an unfair advantage, usually in a competetive or evaluatory setting.

While not present in base DST as ot isnt competetive, an example of "cheese" and "cheating" I can think of is the attack animation cancel debacle during the Forge seasons.

Attack animation canceling, while unintended, was present and was utilized by higher level teams in The Forge to great effect, speeding up their runs' times. It was still considered fair game as it required a fair amount of skill and judgement to successfully pull off.

However, come Forge season 2, ppl made mods which made it so your animation was cancelled every time:

Not only did the skill required for anim cancelling vanish with the use of the mod, multiple problems arose:

 - pro teams using the hack were virtually unbeatable and justified their cheating on the forums

 - noobs using the hack usually activated it on sleeping mobs, therefore making some matches close to unwinnable

It was so bad anim cancelling was patched out (tho the cheats still worked?) and the Forge Leaderboard was changed as well.

[CaptainChaotica]

2 hours ago, 1bubbainpa said:

“Oh, you survived for a full year? Did you do it was a cheese character like Wolfgang?”

”Oh, you defeated Bee Queen? Come back when you’ve soloed her without any help.”

”You soloed Fuelweaver? Did you spam pierogies the whole time? How long did it take you?”

“You survived 200 days? Do it without eating food and I’ll be impressed.”

Oh, god, this is all SO true.  Especially of some parts of these very forums.  Anyway to me cheating IS when you use a console command or other method of changing the game code to make it easier for yourself, _even as a noob_.  This is a survival game.  You're SUPPOSED to learn by dying at lot at first.  Or, by having information ahead of time, such as already knowing about darkness.  Where the _cheating_ would come in would be if you didn't bother to get grass/logs/twigs all day long not because it's an older world and those things are picked over, but because you just didn't feel like it, and then "OH CRAP" you magically give yourself a fire.

But knowing that you need to have a fire before it gets "DARK-dark" and getting the materials normally...that's fine.

Quite a few mods I would consider not cheaty at all, as if they add an advantage it's a small one (like, one that doesn't impact one of the game's core mechanics in a way that makes that mechanic much easier on the player), are purely decorative, or even make things HARDER.  ("Thirst" is a favourite of mine for this--although I liked the older, simpler version more.)  There are also mods that make hound attacks worse, ones that add constant HP drain due to "wounds", make it so you can carry _less_ than normal...

...Notorious

[Tranoze]

8 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Mods are almost same as console commands.

So building ancient Fuelweaver in perfect grid using geometric placement (mod) then fight it normally count as cheating?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

18 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

So building ancient Fuelweaver in perfect grid using geometric placement (mod) then fight it normally count as cheating?

Doing it affects the fight?

Schools should teach how to keep a coherent debate...

[Wumpus the 19th]

i feel there's actually 3 terms here.

prep: a proportional decrease in difficulty to player set up, I.E. getting football helms and pierogis

cheese: ironically doesn't include pierogis. a massive decrease in difficulty, unproportional to player set up, I.E. ancient guardian pillar cheese. these should be used sparsely but are not strictly shamed by the masses.

cheating: anything that flat out requires no set up or ability, I.E. insta-kill punches and god mode. either it's a creative server or you have no shame or dignity.

if it's solo, go for it. personally i'm trying to stop rolling back, but i'm the same person who learned how to stop a death on xbox solo DS by myself. (close the game before you fully die, can screw up the game).

[. . .]

1 hour ago, GetNerfedOn said:

willow is on fire! now i want blow dart guns in dst!

[DaZoul]

Cheating is using things that aren't in the game, like mods. Cheesing is when you use things that are included in the game, but not specifically how the creators imagined or wanted you to do it.

[wigfrids hat]

just remember; it is only cheese if someone somewhere says you oughtn't have done it that way, otherwise it is just pro strats

[Owlrust]

6 hours ago, sinisterrkid said:

So as you can see, it's pretty subjective.

Lol I know. Truth be told I don't really care about the question I asked, I just wanted to make this thread because I wanted to give something for people to talk about and come back to until the next update approaches; and I chose this topic because I knew how divisive the subject is among the community.

[CameoAppearance]

The exact boundary between normal gameplay and cheese isn't really important to this thread. Whether it's exploiting a quirk or bug in the code to set up unintended conditions or using a character perk that's been in the game unchanged since vanilla singleplayer, almost anything will get called "cheese" if it makes gameplay easier than somebody's preferred method or what they consider the "default" for Don't Starve. I'm not excluding myself from that, I too make the call about what counts as cheese based on a subjective judgment of what counts as a fighting chance for the enemy or a fair effort on the player's part.

Cheating, though, is when the player uses outside tools not normally incorporated into the gameplay to give themself an otherwise impossible advantage; I include console commands because even though the console is usually available without modifying the game, as was mentioned previously it's a dev tool (and kind of the successor to older games' cheat codes), not something that comes up in standard gameplay. And it's not like players are going to accidentally spawn ten thulecite crowns in their inventory with no in-game prompting or guidance on how to do so. Cheating also covers mods that make the player more powerful, make the enemies weaker, or circumvent the normal limits on what you can do, but the extent to which I care about that depends on whether people are bragging about their in-game achievements while having mods installed that make it easier to do the thing they're bragging about and how likely the mods actually are to make the difference between success and failure, life and death, or a narrow and gruelling victory versus poking an enemy and making them explode.

Using a completely separate program to manipulate the code on a server you're not hosting or automate your player character's actions to achieve inhuman efficiency is the most blatant form of cheating, but it's uncommon for people to try that in DST because the game is mostly cooperative sandbox PvE and everyone can host their own servers. There's very little to gain for yourself by coming to someone else's server and cheating, and even griefers have easier ways of ruining other people's accomplishments. Nobody needs an aimbot in DST.

[TheGoldenDonut_]

Cheating is like using hacks and stuff thats not allowed. Cheesing can be doing something that the devs probably didn't notice and doesn't use hacks and stuff. Cheating cannot be done without commands. Cheesing can.

[Viktor234]

Another attempt:

Normal: Doing things like intended.
Cheesing: Doing things the unnatural way (still fair but unhornorable)
Exploiting: Abusing missing lines or using mods or console commands which give you an unfair advantage
Cheating: Hacking into the server and abusing server commands

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Viktor234 said:

Another attempt:

Normal: Doing things like intended.
Cheesing: Doing things the unnatural way (still fair but unhornorable)
Exploiting: Abusing missing lines or using mods or console commands which give you an unfair advantage
Cheating: Hacking into the server and abusing server commands

i think the discussion comes more for being offended for call some "strategies" by his name but people thinking is an insult when every body has cheat in some games or nobody turned off the gameboy when you killed the legendary you wanna capture? and there is a lot of silly examples like this. Dictionary exists and things have a name

for example i consire using rollback for other things that are not lag, griefes, any other uncontrolable and not game mechanic problem cheating but i use it sometimes when i miss i fight so i have to refarm a lot of stuff and i feel lazy but i dont care what others think about this because is how i can get a little more fun instead of forcing myself to be boring playing a game made to have fun. 

Or cheese/being lame, nobody abuse of hado ken in street fighter?