Theukon-dos

Character reworks and the Importance of interesting downsides.

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Well-met    2522

If you make every character really powerful, then it solves the problem from the other side. This is what Klei is going for I believe.

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Well-met    2522
6 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Perhaps, but that doesn't make the characters particularly interesting. Wolfgang is quite possibly the strongest character in the game between his damage and speed boosts and his Pathetic downsides, but you rarely see anyone play him because he's just plain boring.

wolfgang and wicker will likely be the only reworks that involve a seizable tuning down, but Klei will probably give them new strong powers to compensate.

wait what, you rarely see anyone play wolf?

Edited by Well-met

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Theukon-dos    2596
Just now, Viktor234 said:

I actually wouldn't call Warly's downside that he gets reduced stats from eating the same dish over and over again interesting. The fact that he can only eat dishes is kinda interesting, but the other downside and the fact that he doesn't have any abilities besides his Crock Pot (which can be shared with everyone) turns him into a real Pick-and-Swap Character.

It's more interesting than just eating nothing but meatballs and pierogi the entire game. As for the pick and swap thing, Because his food spoils, you still need to either be swapping to him constantly or killing the bee queen too unlock the bundling wrap.

Just now, Viktor234 said:

The repeated meal penalty forbids him to make use of foods with lower stats, or to use healing food in bigger battles. Just like Wormwood he needs to rely on Healing Salve or Honey Poultice during fights to stay alive (if you enjoy this penalty on Warly, you'll be better off playing as Wormwood instead). Combining Body and Head Armor doesn't work in DST, unlike in DS. His hunger can be easily managed with Meatballs + Meaty Stew, which is also common in DST due to Suspicious Dirt Piles or a proper Bunnyman farm. Also the facts that he requires more different fillers than the average character kinda disturbs the fact that he needs to carry around his Portable Crock Pot, and that his chef pouch grants -2 slots: You need to fill about half of your inventory with different foods to avoid Warly's penalty with dishes.

I do admit that his upside is quite easy to cheese. but I wouldn't say that he can't use lower-quality foods at all. Any bit of hunger still makes it take longer until he needs to eat a previous food again. And as for DS Warly, He actually had an easier time Cheesing his hunger bar due to his increased food gain. He gains 33% more hunger from food, which meant that he could eat 3 meatballs and be good for the next 2 days

Just now, Viktor234 said:

Warly is based around dishes, but he does get reduced stats from dishes. Everyone can make use of Warly's dishes, and since the Celestial Portal does exist in DST, you aren't really forced to suffer from his penalties to enjoy his only ability.

I do agree that Warly could use an upside to encourage playing him directly, but this post was about downsides, so mentioning that didn't make sense.  The way I see it, I find the most fun in playing warly because of his downside, so I thought it was a worthy one to mention here.

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Viktor234    4085
52 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Perhaps, but that doesn't make the characters particularly interesting. Wolfgang is quite possibly the strongest character in the game between his damage and speed boosts and his Pathetic downsides, but you rarely see anyone play him because he's just plain boring.

Wolfgang is actually not that unpopular, players do still pick Wolfgang mostly because of his "+25% movement speed", because they want to solo rush all the bosses in DST, or just because they want to be a hero and thus pick the strongest character ingame. He's still in the upper half of the most popular characters and I still see players joining and picking Wolfgang.

Also what about Wilson? He could be called the most boring character in DST, because he doesn't have any real upsides or downsides except his beard, but he's still in the top 3 of the most popular characters in DST (The most popular character right now appears to be Wigfrid).

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Theukon-dos    2596
1 minute ago, Viktor234 said:

Wolfgang is actually not that unpopular, players do still pick Wolfgang mostly because of his "+25% movement speed", because they want to solo rush all the bosses in DST, or just because they want to be a hero and thus pick the strongest character ingame. He's still in the upper half of the most popular characters and I still see players joining and picking Wolfgang.

Also what about Wilson? He could be called the most boring character in DST, because he doesn't have any real upsides or downsides except his beard, but he's still in the top 3 of the most popular characters in DST (The most popular character right now appears to be Wigfrid).

I made that wolfgang statement based on my experience in pubs where I rarely see him. 

 

As for Wilson, I imagine it's because he's the face of DST, and is a nice and simple character for people who just want to play the game.

Also, Where can I see the character statistics? that actually sounds really interesting

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Viktor234    4085
2 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Also, Where can I see the character statistics? that actually sounds really interesting

I dunno exactly but you might ask @CarlZalph, 3-4 months ago he made a small statistic about the currently picked characters in every vanilla server:

image.png.b794be31640081add21e59cbd551f1

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Mike23Ua    5580

I believe that the truly overpowered characters will be brought back down a peg or two.. but other than that, I don’t mind that downsides are vanishing into what seems like obscurity.

There is a HUGE Reason for this though- Because as Klei have stated before they design this game with the FUTURE of the game already in Mind. 

So Just because you or I feel like Wurt or Wendy doesn’t have any serious downsides does NOT mean that the game will always be easy- Hell for all any of US know Klei could be as I type this deep within the finishing touches of a Totally Uncompromising Mode.

They could make the game world itself harder, their could be dedicated difficulty options, Klei’s already acknowledge big idea’s like Elevated Land as something they know a lot of their players would like to see.. how do we know what they are up to?

I would imagine something as game changing as actual difficulty options & Elevated plots of land that all of us would feel like complete noobs all over again unfamiliar with the game.

How do we KNOW that this Whole Return Of Them Update isn’t some grand master plan that once we are tricked into building that celestial alter.. we trigger some event that Terraforms THE ENTIRE CONSTANT  into strange new Lunar Variants Of all enemy types?

Have you SEEN the effects the Moon has on anything in this game??!?! Ghosts roaming freely, pigs becoming Werepigs, Shattered Spiders, Horror Hound, Horror Pengull....

I mean- I’ve seen people like @minespatch Showing off concept art of mobs that so far are NOT in the game, things like the electronic Pawns and more importantly the mob he wants added to the game Baccoon.

As someone who very clearly remembers Scooby Doo on Zombie Island... Baccoon to me do not look like peaceful trading adult variants of Catcoon, they look like they had been transformed by the Moons powers.

For Anyone Who for whatever reason has NOT seen the best Scooby doo film ever created.. spoilers are in the Tag.

Spoiler

The actual real Zombies on the Island (yup for once not some shady villain in a mask) we’re trying to WARN Scooby and the Gang about the seemingly peaceful people who live on the Island who turn into WERECATS and has been luring people to the Island and draining the life out of them. 

 

(Ya know.. now that I think about it, some of my favorite kids cartoons were a bit dark and morbid to be KIDS Cartoons)

Ahem but anyway- How do we Know the effects the LUNAR Power would have on ANYTHING??? 

The TL:DR-

I guess what I’m trying to say here is- 

As long as Klei is continuing to update and provide content to DST, we can all consider it as an unfinished game with plenty of room to develop and continue to grow.

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zVince    2972
28 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Also what about Wilson? He could be called the most boring character in DST, because he doesn't have any real upsides or downsides except his beard, but he's still in the top 3 of the most popular characters in DST (The most popular character right now appears to be Wigfrid).

Wilson's only popular because he's the poster boy for Don't Starve. His gameplay is really tedious in relation to the other characters, he has nothing special that contributes to a group or himself.  Since 2014 I only play with him, but recently I started playing with other characters because it is not feasible to have a Wilson on the team. 

Spoiler

Regarding cosmetics and updates he is the most forgotten character currently

 

Edited by zVince
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Mike23Ua    5580
11 minutes ago, CarlZalph said:

Stats as of ~3 minute ago:

image.png.0577e09ee28c5d9ce30800b4345528ca.png

Ever since Wendy rework, Wigfrid's #1 pickrate worldwide was dethroned.

As it should be. :D 

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Viktor234    4085
4 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

give it another month or two. We'll see if the natural order returns to normal

Where's the need of playing a character who has a smaller stomach and needs to rely on meat only if you can have an ally following you 24/7 and killing any nearby mob for free? Batilisks, Spiders, Hounds: No problem at all because your follower solos them with ease! Free resources with every new day. Shadow Creatures can be avoided with a Top Hat, Spider Queens will despawn, Treeguards die slowly via Pigman or seasonal bosses, and other bosses can be avoided by just running away.

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Mike23Ua    5580
54 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Where's the need of playing a character who has a smaller stomach and needs to rely on meat only if you can have an ally following you 24/7 and killing any nearby mob for free? Batilisks, Spiders, Hounds: No problem at all because your follower solos them with ease! Free resources with every new day. Shadow Creatures can be avoided with a Top Hat, Spider Queens will despawn, Treeguards die slowly via Pigman or seasonal bosses, and other bosses can be avoided by just running away.

Wendy has ALWAYS been seen as an Easier character choice, I mean.. honestly, what were you expecting?

I love to play Wicker.. free backpacks for everyone, free food, she is really good when paired with a Wormwood, But Wicker hasn’t been Reworked yet.. and I don’t want to play as her too much NOW because I may not like how much they change her LATER.

Especially when I hear a lot of people crying things like “I Hope Wicker gets nerfed into the ground!”

Why?? Because she’s Better than the character you play and that’s why you don’t like her? 

————————————

When I ask for Reworks I want every last single one of them to focus on being fun, unique and interesting to play as while at the same time- Having at least ONE thing going for them that Benefits an Entire Team.

 

Many people who don’t play Wortox much are unaware that when he releases his souls they don’t just heal him and him alone, they heal everyone AROUND Him, Abigails flower damage buff could had easily been strictly a Wendy buff- But no... ANYONE can Benefit from that Buff.

and that’s the direction ALL characters need to go in- Useful, unique or challenging all on their own- But also not a burden to a team, and actual provide benefits to said team.

WEBBER- Webber’s Spider Egg He spawns With isn’t that great of a perk, and it also does nothing at all to benefit people who are not also Webber.

If you place your Spider Nests too close to my base, Be aware I will destroy them no questions asked.

Also if you see me building a Pig house village, don’t come through and hammer all those down just because they punch you around a bit.

Webber is in great need of a Rework to be more team-oriented. Currently his playstyle suits going off and playing alone by Yourself.

Im an EXPERT at Playing Alone by myself, But someone- ANYONE explain to me why Webber can’t “Sleep” inside a Tier 2 or above Spider Den to Downgrade it’s Threat Tier by one level? This would prevent the nests Webber places near non-Webber players from becoming Spider Queens.

While your at it- Explain Why Webber has to make an entire Spider Den Hostile towards him by punching it just to recruit a few Spiders during day light?

 

My point? Every single Character in this game who has yet to be refreshed  was designed from a SINGLE PLAYER gameplay concept. And it’s only the ones who have seen their Reworks that are seeing a large change from that direction. 

Willow can drop Bernie’s to draw shadows away.

Wendy has the damage stat buff from Abigails petal bestowment.

Oh and speaking of Wendy, I wish that People could “ride” on Woodies shoulders in Werebeaver form to slowly cross water as hinted by Wendy’s Quote for him!! 

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Blunderbuss    389
On 4/26/2020 at 11:11 AM, Blunderbuss said:

Reworks in general deserve to be a lot more polarizing, gimmicks should pretty much be removed imo, probably a bit late, I know. I don't mean each character needs to fit into the meta or a very specific play-style, they should at least have their own game-play. Warly and Woodie are good examples of this, Warly I like playing, Woodie is a bit lame, (Wilson replacement, I think he's cool too but he doesn't fit my point, not polarizing) obviously Warly is not an extraordinary character in power, but he has a niche and, if you like playing as Warly, you REALLY do like Warly. Downsides should effect day-by-day game-play, (I know this is a very polarizing example but hear me out) what if Woodie was transformed on a nightly basis, with maybe some mechanics or buffs to balance it out, that would be interesting. Woodie would revolved around hunger management and inventory management, otherwise you would sometimes forget you are even Woodie, rather just a person with an axe buff. I can't be the only person who has forgotten Woodie transformed on a full moon in the first place. I am biased because of liking Warly and his hunger-based game-play being what i find fun, but the point is that the gameplay is (in all honesty) boring right now and could use another cycle of challenge to add some good gameplay. I've seen from a few friends that, even new players don't often bother to try all the characters in-game, I see the reason as everyone is a bit too similar.

On 4/26/2020 at 11:48 AM, Blunderbuss said:

And, to give my personal ideas for what some of the characters, should or should've had their stats based on:

  Reveal hidden contents

Willow: Sanity and a use for nightmare fuel. maybe a constant drain as well? Maybe not. I don't think weather resistance or weakness is a good idea really, that's a gimmick I don't care about. New Bernie recipe because it still sucks.

Wilson: Jack of all trades, master of none. That's cool because it's something for everyone, and no one at the same time. Stock!

Wes: I'd like him to be a troll/funny/useless character, but support ideas some people have are pretty cool. If anything, I think some sort of reverse-vampiric things would be GREAT. Like telltale heart, but for living people. So, in that sense, Wes is health centered. (also I think his damage debuff is a big reason for people not to play him personally, hunger annoys people too) Another idea for this is gaining health easily, to fund his sorta, blood donation charity stuff. This could even have a lore reason too, Wes is dead crap alone, kind enough to be a good asset to the team, and, maybe instead of dealing less damage, he could take that damage instead, this would even balance him sharing his health. Maybe he would attach an item to a specific player, when they leave w/ an option to let go of that item, said item determines who gets health.

Wickerbottom: Upsides are cool, downsides are gimmicky and light.

anyway, Idk about wickerbottom, maybe a cane?

She has a starting or craftable cane that can be upgraded to a walking cane or lazy explorer,  movement is restricted without it, maybe this could also be effected by clothing. You'd probably have to see this before knowing if it would work out at all.

Wolfgang: other stuff in this thread

                                                   

As it turns out, I wrote about this sorta thing earlier, here's what i said, because i think it's more relevant to this thread.

And, (like a lot of people I seem to have noticed) I've been playing a lot of Warly recently, which sort of speaks to this, I think the bestexample I came up with here was Woodie, I think downsides should effect your day by day gameplay, not seasonal or not often. Warly can be a switch character, but not as much as Winona because of how inconvenient it can be sometimes. Most people play Warly for fun, though.

Stuff could even contrast, Wigfrid for example, this wouldn't fit the character at all but is just an example of a potentially fun character design. Wigfrid only eats meat, that would be more fun for a character that had a harder time getting meat, for some reason, right?

 

This is the exact reason so many people have asked for a glass cannon character. High damage, very low health. It contrasts in that way.

how about a meter of earned damage? If you have dealed a certain amount of damage quickly, Wigfrid gives a battle cry for having reached the climax of the fight, and thus dealing double damage, or something.

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Zeklo    18232

Wormwood's downside is certainly interesting but it's undoubtedly a huge crux compared to others'. What tends to happen is you're extremely cautious in the early-game until you can devote into the resource-sink that is his healing alternatives, have a Wortox, or swap off. Which results, in my opinion, less interesting play.

Warly's downside is also interesting, but I personally dislike it since he's a craft-based (or cook based rather) character (I also still hold a grudge he isn't a goat >:c). Which makes him a prominent pick-and-swap option. There's very little reason to actually play the game with him when you can just use the Celestial Portal mid-game to acquire Volt Jelly without the need for his annoying con.

Wurt's vegetarian trait is interesting, but slightly suffers from the buff she gets when eating vegetables. There's no doubt surviving without the... what is it...? 33% increase...?would be incredibly difficult. However, I sometimes find myself on the fence on the exact numbers, since you can basically survive off fist full of jam with little issue.

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Pikapikap    664

I like all the characters refresh brought by klei so far.All very interesting,If we want to increase the difficulty, maybe we can expect a worse living environment in the future, a more powerful BOSS, and more difficult monsters to fight back.

It seems to me that someone wants characters refresh = nerf them.It is recommended to change it to the same as the current version of wes. If this is what some people want.And if you do n’t grasp this level well, it will greatly reduce the use of certain characters.

I do n’t think there is anything wrong with character enhancement. It ’s just that we have to increase the difficulty of the living environment and monsters. Maybe this should be considered instead of saying this op all day.

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ButterStuffed    1829
10 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Funny thing you mention the prevalence of characters in servers - btw, when was the last time you checked what characters are played most-to-least in them Survival vanilla pubs? Because from what I've seen in my oh-so-disturbingly-high number of pub hours, Warly and Wormwood are least picked, top-bottom alongside Wes. And are probably the most swap-characters out there aside Winona. "Punishing downsides" makes a very unpopular choice in bulk of player-base and that in turn spells low sales for the respective characters skins.

Well you have to pay extra or own Hamlet to play Wormwood so it shouldn't be surprising that he has considerably less people playing him.

Edited by ButterStuffed
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Theukon-dos    2596
8 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Where's the need of playing a character who has a smaller stomach and needs to rely on meat only if you can have an ally following you 24/7 and killing any nearby mob for free? Batilisks, Spiders, Hounds: No problem at all because your follower solos them with ease! Free resources with every new day. Shadow Creatures can be avoided with a Top Hat, Spider Queens will despawn, Treeguards die slowly via Pigman or seasonal bosses, and other bosses can be avoided by just running away.

I mean, The fact that she was already at the top of the leaderboard despite not being able to eat 50-75% of the food items in the game is a pretty good mark in my favor.

 

I really should have included her in my examples, as she's a perfect example of a character with a unique downside that doesn't go full Scorched earth like Warly or Wormwood.

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