essay Character reworks and the Importance of interesting downsides.

[Fuffles]

At least one post speaking the truth

[xDarkSoul18x]

18 hours ago, zVince said:

Wilson's only popular because he's the poster boy for Don't Starve. His gameplay is really tedious in relation to the other characters, he has nothing special that contributes to a group or himself.  Since 2014 I only play with him, but recently I started playing with other characters because it is not feasible to have a Wilson on the team. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Regarding cosmetics and updates he is the most forgotten character currently

 

That IS his specialty or what makes him good. He has no downside or gimmicks. No “can’t eat meat only”, “drains” etc, he’s just a basic Jane.

 

As for OP I agree mostly. The reason I love this game is because of the challenge and how every character makes me play the game differently. I would hate for them to turn DST into easy-baby-mode (for a lack of better words).

[zVince]

1 hour ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

That IS his specialty or what makes him good. He has no downside or gimmicks. No “can’t eat meat only”, “drains” etc, he’s just a basic Jane.

 

As for OP I agree mostly. The reason I love this game is because of the challenge and how every character makes me play the game differently. I would hate for them to turn DST into easy-baby-mode (for a lack of better words).

I agree with you if you were referring to Don't Starve Solo. Where I have a level progression system. In Don't Starve Together things are different, the characters need to serve something. Willow, Woodie and Winona were forgotten, and became more interesting after the refresh. They gained utilities for the group.

[Mike23Ua]

17 minutes ago, zVince said:

I agree with you if you were referring to Don't Starve Solo. Where I have a level progression system. In Don't Starve Together things are different, the characters need to serve something. Willow, Woodie and Winona were forgotten, and became more interesting after the refresh. They gained utilities for the group.

Willows Group perk is interesting... she can craft Bernie’s and give them to other players, Bernie can be placed on the ground when your low on sanity and he will dance around breaking Shadow monster Aggro off of you and it’ll target the bear,

Winona’s team perk is a bit Meh.. a Spotlight That can be shined onto them? Really.. lol Okay then.. The Catapults are nice, but they make Winona into a Swap Character.

Woodie- Sigh.. Woodie even with his Rework got shafted, his curses allow him to cover gathering wood, and exploring faster.. but he doesn’t have a perk that directly effects TEAM Work like Bernie drawing Aggro or Abigails Damage Buff. It would be cool if other players could ride on Werebeavers shoulder while Beaver Woodie slowly swims around in Water.. THAT would be an interesting team perk, Werebeaver functions as a slow moving means of transportation and allows the player on him to pick things up and fish.

Although a perk like that would be identical to What I expect Walani Surfboards will do.

 

[Tosh]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is externalising a character’s downside.

For example, Wicker’s insomniac downside becomes a lot more pronounced in Winter’s Feast—unless you have a mandrake or Bearger on hand, you can’t sleep and get that sweet present loot. The character hasn’t been nerfed and is honestly just as fun as she always was, yet she now has a much more interesting downside.

I think on the other hand, character swapping is available too early and undermines many of these dynamics. It may be a bit harsh, but I’d personally like too see it locked behind something like defeating mr crab king.

[Well-met]

15 minutes ago, Tosh said:

I think on the other hand, character swapping is available too early and undermines many of these dynamics. It may be a bit harsh, but I’d personally like too see it locked behind something like defeating mr crab king.

the portable celestial orb should be removed, the statue and kit should be moved to the full celestial tab, the round moon boulder should be rarer and instead of the tiny orb it should give a clue to where the moon island is.

[MondayNight]

13 hours ago, ButterStuffed said:

Well you have to pay extra or own Hamlet to play Wormwood so it shouldn't be surprising that he has considerably less people playing him.

From my recollection all DS: Hamlet Beta testers got DST Wormwood for free. And if I remember well there was quite a big number of them free licenses for DS: Hamlet Beta testers (10k? 15k? higher?!); not to mention theoretical number of people buying Hamlet after its release - and I suspect it was quite a decent number. After all mentioned you would expect more than a ~290 / 1.9% current active output of Wormwood players.

As empirical evidence from all my DST friends and acquaintances (via macro DST communities) that also got Wormwood one way or the other (Beta tester, weaving in via spools, buying it), almost no one plays it, citing it "subpar performance" on many levels. More so with Warly (given for free to all DST players).

Also reading Steam forums (where some of the casuals go-to for complaints, bulk-casuals you don't see here) one can get a better picture on "punishing downsides" and how popular are characters with such traits in larger populace. And if a character is rock-bottom popular, its future Skin Packs won't have good sale digits, thus the economic incentive for implementing "punishing downsides" characters won't really be there.

[Mike23Ua]

Let me just cut you off there- Wormwood is incredibly easy to play as once you KNOW how to properly play him, the problem is.. not many people KNOW how to properly play him..

So what if Wormwood can’t heal by traditional food munching methods?

Spoiler

He can still use healing slaves, eat spider glands raw, use booster shots, Can heal by fertilizing himself with poop or more potent poop (it’s not a very great method but it is life saving at times..) or Sleep inside of a Tent to regenerate his Health.

Wormwood can plant seeds directly into the dirt and then just 2 poop fertilizer later grow that seed into a full crop, giving him basically free food for the cost of nothing in a pinch, as a Solo player this is a great perk to have.

Lastly, Wormwood has access to quite a few tools to help him “Not die.” The Bramble Husk Armor is a must have on any Wormwood, pair that with a good helmet and maybe some of his special tooth traps and you should have no problem at all staying alive as a Wormwood.

 

I love Wormwoods inability to heal by eating food so much that I wish Klei would implement a Dedicated Uncompromising Mode to the game where Food won’t heal hp for ANYONE not just Wormwood.

But I realize I’m in the minority of people who want that.

[Well-met]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Let me just cut you off there- Wormwood is incredibly easy to play as once you KNOW how to properly play him, the problem is.. not many people KNOW how to properly play him..

So what if Wormwood can’t heal by traditional food munching methods?

  Reveal hidden contents

He can still use healing slaves, eat spider glands raw, use booster shots, Can heal by fertilizing himself with poop or more potent poop (it’s not a very great method but it is life saving at times..) or Sleep inside of a Tent to regenerate his Health.

Wormwood can plant seeds directly into the dirt and then just 2 poop fertilizer later grow that seed into a full crop, giving him basically free food for the cost of nothing in a pinch, as a Solo player this is a great perk to have.

Lastly, Wormwood has access to quite a few tools to help him “Not die.” The Bramble Husk Armor is a must have on any Wormwood, pair that with a good helmet and maybe some of his special tooth traps and you should have no problem at all staying alive as a Wormwood.

 

I love Wormwoods inability to heal by eating food so much that I wish Klei would implement a Dedicated Uncompromising Mode to the game where Food won’t heal hp for ANYONE not just Wormwood.

But I realize I’m in the minority of people who want that.

The main purpose of food healing is gaining a large amount of health points in a short time, usually in the middle of important fights.

wormwood will not survive bosses with 2 hp + long animation poop, nor with 8 hp glands. Sleeping is out of the question. Boosters don't actually heal up.

salves and poultices require significantly more time and hoarding which isn't particularly interesting, fun or effective over simply cooking pierorgis. Not to mention not everyone makes bee boxes or has a nearby webber.

[Mike23Ua]

Yeah it’s official, your playing a TOTALLY Different game then I am then Because whenever I eat food I actually have to stop moving completely and spend a few seconds to EAT the food.. which will most the time get you killed anyway.

I always wondered why if 20 hounds are chasing me do I need to stand still and let them catch up to me in order to eat or heal... It would be LOVELY if I could eat while still also running away from the hounds that are attempting to kill me.

[MondayNight]

26 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I love Wormwoods inability to heal by eating food so much that I wish Klei would implement a Dedicated Uncompromising Mode to the game where Food won’t heal hp for ANYONE not just Wormwood.

But I realize I’m in the minority of people who want that.

Do you solo Klaus every winter with Wormwood using those healing alternatives?

Or at least do you kill Klaus every winter with some other players, using said alternative healings?

[Well-met]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yeah it’s official, your playing a TOTALLY Different game then I am then Because whenever I eat food I actually have to stop moving completely and spend a few seconds to EAT the food.. which will most the time get you killed anyway.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Infact I'm pretty sure you've admited into never attacking giants in another discussion.

[Mike23Ua]

I’ve attacked the giants, I’ve Played DS Single Player.. the thing is THIS IS NOT DS Single Player & that easy to handle Dragonfly from DS Single player now gains an Additional 20,000 Hp.

why would I EVER attempt to attack that? Yeah sure maybe it’s possible if you do X, Y, A Method or bring a team with you to fight it... But I didn’t NEED X, Y, or A in DS Solo so to need that in DST is just Time consuming for a Solo player.

I have a world where each season lasts exactly 6 days each... do you have any idea what that does? I’ll tell you- it makes fighting Deerclops and Bearger a repetitive boring task.. they always come back and pretty much just a few short days after you have just recently killed them.

To the point that eventually you just groan and ignore them straight up altogether. Yes I realize that’s got EVERYTHING to do with my server settings... and less to do with game design, but the point still stands- Maybe after I’ve fought a boss 4 times in a row in less than a few hours I get kinda tired of seeing its ugly face? 

[xDarkSoul18x]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

The main purpose of food healing is gaining a large amount of health points in a short time, usually in the middle of important fights.

wormwood will not survive bosses with 2 hp + long animation poop, nor with 8 hp glands. Sleeping is out of the question. Boosters don't actually heal up.

salves and poultices require significantly more time and hoarding which isn't particularly interesting, fun or effective over simply cooking pierorgis. Not to mention not everyone makes bee boxes or has a nearby webber.

I would have to argue yes and no. At least for me I prefer to avoid damage as much as possible. Learn the fights and how to kite. Obviously things like bishops are damn near impossible to but. .hp food is usually for clockworks and lag for me at least. Not to mention honey healing doesn’t spoil! I’m with mike on this one.

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve attacked the giants, I’ve Played DS Single Player.. the thing is THIS IS NOT DS Single Player & that easy to handle Dragonfly from DS Single player now gains an Additional 20,000 Hp.

why would I EVER attempt to attack that? Yeah sure maybe it’s possible if you do X, Y, A Method or bring a team with you to fight it... But I didn’t NEED X, Y, or A in DS Solo so to need that in DST is just Time consuming for a Solo player.

I have a world where each season lasts exactly 6 days each... do you have any idea what that does? I’ll tell you- it makes fighting Deerclops and Bearger a repetitive boring task.. they always come back and pretty much just a few short days after you have just recently killed them.

To the point that eventually you just groan and ignore them straight up altogether. Yes I realize that’s got EVERYTHING to do with my server settings... and less to do with game design, but the point still stands- Maybe after I’ve fought a boss 4 times in a row in less than a few hours I get kinda tired of seeing its ugly face? 

You haven't answered the question though: do you kill Klaus every year playing as Wormwood and using his alternative character-specific (downsides-accounted) healing?

[Queron81]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:03 PM, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Funny thing you mention the prevalence of characters in servers - btw, when was the last time you checked what characters are played most-to-least in them Survival vanilla pubs? Because from what I've seen in my oh-so-disturbingly-high number of pub hours, Warly and Wormwood are least picked, top-bottom alongside Wes.

Oh, I'm playing a lot on public servers (survival vanilla) and I'm always seeing a lot of Wormwoods. I often choose Wormwood by myself, but often there are already 1, 2 or even 3 Wormwoods on a server, so I pick another character (like Wickerbottom, because there is sometimes no Wickerbottom). And I see Wes more often than Wolfgang. But yeah, Warly is picked very rarely, but also Wurt.

Wormwood is more seen on servers with a higher player amount, as he can help a lot with food resources. But most people are playing alone or with 1 or 2 friends, so they choose an easier/stronger character, who works better in small teams.
 

[cantbeatdaboss]

I like to play worm, even in solo worlds, even though the only perks I really use are his easy sanity manipulation and his bramble husk just because his downside makes him a lot more fun to play than other characters and also helping to get better at the game as you play a lot better when you value your health more.  Compare him to a character like wolf or wig who can easily tank a boss because of wolf's high damage or wig's lifesteal.  Even characters like wes wendy and max can still tank enemies as long as they stockpile enough armor and healing food, but by making worm unable to use healing food he is a more challenging character than even wes.

[Canis]

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. A downside arguably changes up your playstyle MORE than an upside. When I play a different character, I expect a different experience than the last character I played. This goes for any game, really. That's pretty much what characters are universally used for.

If a character has purely upsides, I have a hard time motivating myself to come BACK to that character. An influential downside forces you to play differently while not taking away from the game.

[GenomeSquirrel]

2 hours ago, Canis said:

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. A downside arguably changes up your playstyle MORE than an upside. When I play a different character, I expect a different experience than the last character I played. This goes for any game, really. That's pretty much what characters are universally used for.

If a character has purely upsides, I have a hard time motivating myself to come BACK to that character. An influential downside forces you to play differently while not taking away from the game.

I usually find this false

Willow's downside is just a sped up version of everyone elses downside, but no one else is having me get beard hair, that portable tank means even I can manage ruins with my massive lag.

I'm not sure Woodie has a downside, but no one matches his journey to the moon

Wendy forced me to develop Abigail swamp survival strats, but I only go in the swamp to make a birdcage once.

Overcompensating for Wickerbottoms insomnia is basic compared to the depth her books bring.

Wurt's veganism has me go slightly more to the mushtree biomes than I normally would, but no one else could make me search for kelp.

Mass mushroom planters is the only joy I get out of Wormwood, a cycle of collecting hundreds of lightbulbs, fighting spiders so I can make tents and werepigs, converting bulbs to rot and manure, making dozens of logs each night, and repeat; I manage his down side by avoiding unneeded damage, so that I could take a hit or two in mandatory fights like hounds.

Webber's got me to quit Webber, living alone wasn't fun, although things have gotten better for him 

[Canis]

36 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I usually find this false

Willow's downside is just a sped up version of everyone elses downside, but no one else is having me get beard hair, that portable tank means even I can manage ruins with my massive lag.

I'm not sure Woodie has a downside, but no one matches his journey to the moon

Wendy forced me to develop Abigail swamp survival strats, but I only go in the swamp to make a birdcage once.

Overcompensating for Wickerbottoms insomnia is basic compared to the depth her books bring.

Wurt's veganism has me go slightly more to the mushtree biomes than I normally would, but no one else could make me search for kelp.

Mass mushroom planters is the only joy I get out of Wormwood, a cycle of collecting hundreds of lightbulbs, fighting spiders so I can make tents and werepigs, converting bulbs to rot and manure, making dozens of logs each night, and repeat; I manage his down side by avoiding unneeded damage, so that I could take a hit or two in mandatory fights like hounds.

Webber's got me to quit Webber, living alone wasn't fun, although things have gotten better for him 

I didn't say all downsides were good.

[Mike23Ua]

I personally enjoy the removal of downsides.. it allows me and my little sister to enjoy the game TOGETHER without her being confused as to why her character she selected dies faster than mine.

What people on these forums flat out FAIL to understand is that human beings- Have varying differences in their skill level, and giving a character a harsh downside just so they can be the “Challenge Mode Character” ONLY prevents people who might Play as that character from enjoying playing as them.

There should be dedicated modes... buttons or personal customization options that let you tailor your playing experience to your liking.

For people on PC that answer is MODS, Only Mods.. you don’t need anything else, you want a More enjoyable Wes because you hate how he’s too hard to play? 

There’s a Mod for that.

For CONSOLE Players that answer is Developer Consideration into giving us more difficulty toggles or personal preference options to set our game up to be as easy or as difficult as we personally prefer it to be.

So here’s a thought- Maybe I LIKE Playing as Wendy... But because I play Wendy you jump to conclusions that I want the game Super Easy.

This is FALSE- on the MOBILE version of DS I can set my maximum health to be reduced to being lower.. than that of even WES so then tell my Why the Console version of the game does not yet have these same QoL features?

Downsides are important in making a characters playstyle unique I’ll give you that @Canis But downsides can also make the game and the characters you pick to play as more annoying & forced than they NEED to Be.

The Compromise? Dedicated toggle options that allows you to decide rather you want downsides applied to you or not.

Because as I stated at the beginning of this text book post of mine- Human beings have varying differences in skill level.

Maybe I want to play as Wes.. but Maybe I don’t want the downside everyone seems hell-bent on giving him- Making playing as him a Nightmare That somehow benefits everyone else... such as having every hound in the server target and prioritize chasing Wes over everyone else.

That doesn’t make Wes anymore approachable.. it just makes him more of a Nightmare for any NON-EXPERT Trying to play as him.

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I personally enjoy the removal of downsides.. it allows me and my little sister to enjoy the game TOGETHER without her being confused as to why her character she selected dies faster than mine.

What people on these forums flat out FAIL to understand is that human beings- Have varying differences in their skill level, and giving a character a harsh downside just so they can be the “Challenge Mode Character” ONLY prevents people who might Play as that character from enjoying playing as them.

There should be dedicated modes... buttons or personal customization options that let you tailor your playing experience to your liking.

For people on PC that answer is MODS, Only Mods.. you don’t need anything else, you want a More enjoyable Wes because you hate how he’s too hard to play? 

There’s a Mod for that.

For CONSOLE Players that answer is Developer Consideration into giving us more difficulty toggles or personal preference options to set our game up to be as easy or as difficult as we personally prefer it to be.

So here’s a thought- Maybe I LIKE Playing as Wendy... But because I play Wendy you jump to conclusions that I want the game Super Easy.

This is FALSE- on the MOBILE version of DS I can set my maximum health to be reduced to being lower.. than that of even WES so then tell my Why the Console version of the game does not yet have these same QoL features?

Downsides are important in making a characters playstyle unique I’ll give you that @Canis But downsides can also make the game and the characters you pick to play as more annoying & forced than they NEED to Be.

The Compromise? Dedicated toggle options that allows you to decide rather you want downsides applied to you or not.

Because as I stated at the beginning of this text book post of mine- Human beings have varying differences in skill level.

Maybe I want to play as Wes.. but Maybe I don’t want the downside everyone seems hell-bent on giving him- Making playing as him a Nightmare That somehow benefits everyone else... such as having every hound in the server target and prioritize chasing Wes over everyone else.

That doesn’t make Wes anymore approachable.. it just makes him more of a Nightmare for any NON-EXPERT Trying to play as him.

Did you ever stop to think that character selection can be used as a way to individually scale difficulty in a multiplayer setting? There's nothing wrong with having a mix of easy to use, and risk/reward characters. Your entire argument seems to be based around "I want to play as a character that's difficult to use, but I want them to be easy mode", and it's kinda hard to take it seriously.

[Mike23Ua]

14 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Did you ever stop to think that character selection can be used as a way to individually scale difficulty in a multiplayer setting? There's nothing wrong with having a mix of easy to use, and risk/reward characters. Your entire argument seems to be based around "I want to play as a character that's difficult to use, but I want them to be easy mode", and it's kinda hard to take it seriously.

How so? What if I want to take a Character generally perceived as “LuLz Easy Mode Git Gud Noob” And Play them in Totally Uncompromising Hardcore Mode?

My entire POINT is Rather you want the game to be easier, or harder.. should NOT Be tied down based on the character you select.

It should be based on the SETTINGS you Select prior to joining a World. Want Wendy to have Reduced overall health so it caps out at 45% Maximum? There should be dedicated toggle options you can select for that.

 

And until ANYONE can come in to this thread and tell me why I can select to start a world with reduced overall health on the MOBILE Versions of DS but do not yet have that luxury option for DST, I will 100% firmly stand behind my statement and refuse to be wavered from it.

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

How so? What if I want to take a Character generally perceived as “LuLz Easy Mode Git Gud Noob” And Play them in Totally Uncompromising Hardcore Mode?

My entire POINT is Rather you want the game to be easier, or harder.. should NOT Be tied down based on the character you select.

It should be based on the SETTINGS you Select prior to joining a World. Want Wendy to have Reduced overall health so it caps out at 45% Maximum? There should be dedicated toggle options you can select for that.

The problem with adjusting world settings in multiplayer games is that these settings effect everyone. With difficulty being tied to a character, that means only the individual is effected. So an inexperienced player and a veteran can coexist in the same world without much issue. This would mean that you can pick whatever difficulty you'd like regardless of what server you hop on.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

And until ANYONE can come in to this thread and tell me why I can select to start a world with reduced overall health on the MOBILE Versions of DS but do not yet have that luxury option for DST, I will 100% firmly stand behind my statement and refuse to be wavered from it.

Handicaps are fine, but again, DST is a multiplayer game. These should only be applied to the individual, not the world.

[Mike23Ua]

I think your getting lost on the idea I’m purposing. It’s got NOTHING to do with the Server settings and EVERYTHING to do with your PERSONAL SETTINGS.

Lets use Minecraft as the example shall we? (I’ll put this in a Spoiler because it’s going to be a long post.) 

Spoiler

Some people look at Minecraft and see it as a blocky children’s game with no challenge. perhaps THOSE people only played the game on Peaceful or Creative Mode & are completely unaware that Hardcore Survival mode exists in Minecraft where you can Starve to death & You can not collect your belongings back upon death they are erased from existence instead.

What does Minecraft have to do with DST? EVERYTHING!!! My little sister can set her Personal settings in Minecraft to Creative or Peaceful and NEVER starve to death or be targeted or attacked by hostile enemy mobs while she builds the sculptures of her dreams peacefully..

MEANWHILE I am in the same Server with her and I’m about to starve to death I’m being chased by monsters, I can’t save my belongings if I die because the inventory is erased.. 

This is how casual players and hardcore players co-exist in the same Minecraft session.

And this is how DST SHOULD Be...Simply go to settings found in the MAIN MENU- and toggle & tweak things to your hearts desire and Apply- (You can have 5% health to 300% health, you can toggle Sanity on or off, you can choose rather YOU are Targeted by hound waves are they never spawn after you. If you want your Melee attacks to deal 15% less damage Etc..... 

And THEN Upon joining a Server your personal settings are Applied to You.

Maybe I want to play as Wendy but only ever have 45% Maximum HP’s..

This would allow me to DO THAT.

Characters WORKED as Difficulty Sliders in Single-Player Don’t Starve Because #1 it was a Single Player game and the character you picked did not effect everyone else also playing with you.

And #2- Single Player Don’t Starve did not have any cool customizable cosmetic purchasable Skins & Belongings.

I realize that me asking for this Is a HUGE Change, But the way I see it is it doesn’t do anything that PC MODDED Characters DON’T Already Do.. This would just be a Way of giving console players Mod-Like Customization but without actually providing Mod Support.

..no longer bound by the character your pick to play as... but rather through personal preferences you can apply to yourself in a Main Menu.

And in a game where you can ALREADY Mix and Match body parts like Legos for Heads, Arms, Torsos, Legs & Feet... this is something I hope to see in the game someday.

The only thing that should define the character your playing as should be the ability set and craftables belonging to them. 

identical in every single way to creating your own custom character In the actual LEGO Games.