essay Character reworks and the Importance of interesting downsides.

[Viktor234]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:03 PM, Theukon-dos said:

give it another month or two. We'll see if the natural order returns to normal

More than two months have passed and the natural order did not return to normal, Wendy is the new number one character in terms of popularity.

[Harrowick]

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Walters Downside is quote being “Deathly Allergic to Bee’s” except in the game they are a Minor annoyance to him at best- When the Words DEATHLY ALLERGIC means that he would likely be needing immediate medical care after coming in contact with them. & even though the Shipwrecked & Hamlet dlc’s are chalk full of the Health core poisoned bleed out mechanic, Walter doesn’t have it that harsh.

As an idea, I love the concept of having to care for one another in times of illness, disease, and sickness, but even if they made Walter's health drain upon being stung, I think it would end up as a trivially easy/hardly noticeable downside. It probably doesn't help the downside when you can hold W past an entire nation of killer bees and avoid even the tiniest scratch.

Think WX-78's water damage downside, is it possible to die to water damage? Yeah, but is it likely?... sorta depends. If the player has more than two hours in the game, they'll probably just eat butterflies to heal any significant damage.

It's not a bad idea by any means, but Shipwrecked's poison mechanic was the easiest thing to deal with, and it ended up as a tiny inconvenience at best.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

More than two months have passed and the natural order did not return to normal, Wendy is the new number one character in terms of popularity.

Yes!!! Wendy reigns Supreme! muwhahaha 

[pedregales]

21 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

More than two months have passed and the natural order did not return to normal, Wendy is the new number one character in terms of popularity.

Wasn't Wendy already super-popular? I believe she is almost an idol in the DS community.

[Viktor234]

7 minutes ago, pedregales said:

Wasn't Wendy already super-popular? I believe she is almost an idol in the DS community.

No.

Before her Update it did look something like this:

with Wendy being not even in the top 3 of the most popular characters in DST.

Source: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/profile/552758-carlzalph/?status=30456&type=status

[thegreatJash]

I would enjoy more characters geared towards team play. Like Warly and Wornwood, they suffer without any other players.

I think Klei has what it takes to create more interesting downsides, and upsides for the matter, but I feel like I don't see it enough.

[MondayNight]

2 hours ago, thegreatJash said:

I would enjoy more characters geared towards team play. Like Warly and Wornwood, they suffer without any other players.

I think Klei has what it takes to create more interesting downsides, and upsides for the matter, but I feel like I don't see it enough.

 

This is how "characters with more interesting downsides / geared towards team play" fair with player-base bulk - at least currently existing ones:

    wormwood    :  355 ( 2.075902%)
    warly       :  338 ( 1.976493%)
    wurt        :  215 ( 1.257236%)
    wes         :   92 ( 0.537980%)

A 1-2% market viability (prospect towards player-base skin sales) doesn't look to me as a good perspective.

On the flip-side, perhaps KLei should look at top picks - namely Wendy and Wigfrid - and what personal characteristics makes them so popular to have a fine template for future new characters and re-balances alike.

[Mike23Ua]

What they need to do, is look at DST like it’s a MMO RPG.. even though it’s NOT And never will be an MMO RPG- The character choice you select shouldn’t be defining factor in how easy or how hard your gameplay is.

Yes, Downsides do help to define who a character is, but they can also be so highly annoying that someone who would’ve otherwise enjoyed playing as that character- Chooses to completely ignore them altogether.

Now looking at that from a Developers Perspective- That means less potential skin sales for said character.. which in turn means less profit for your company.

Looking at that from a Gamers Perspective- It limits the choices of who you pick to play as. 

We need two modes, one for simple non-crippling downsides, and one Uncompromising Mode with them included.

[Zeklo]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

This is how "characters with more interesting downsides / geared towards team play" fair with player-base bulk - at least currently existing ones:

    wormwood    :  355 ( 2.075902%)
    warly       :  338 ( 1.976493%)
    wurt        :  215 ( 1.257236%)
    wes         :   92 ( 0.537980%)

Warly & Wes are excused, but the DLC characters are naturally going to be lower than the free characters due to accessibility—doesn't mean that's the entire story, but an important distinction.

[MondayNight]

4 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Warly & Wes are excused, but the DLC characters are naturally going to be lower than the free characters due to accessibility—doesn't mean that's the entire story, but an important distinction.

I was quoting Jash's post precisely because of Warly and Wormwood (other 2 of the rock-bottom list were for reference). Also Wormwood "is available for free for all owners of Don't Starve Hamlet on Steam" plus was gratuitously given to all Hamlet beta-testers (that also got Hamlet as a gift from KLei). Thus your point doesn't really stands on its legs to mainly account for their very sub-par performance in bulk player-base. Truth of matter is Warly represents the perfect embodiment of pick-and-drop/swap character in late game for his combat-buff dishes while Wormwood has a bit more range but a very passive and boring game-play, not to mention punishing in combat. And this shows - again, see the character pickings. Likewise I don't even count the almost-weekly complain posts about Warly, Wormwood, Wurt from various forumites asking certain buffs or reworks - remember: vast majority of players don't know or care for these forums, and from said small percentage coming here, a tiny minority actually posts: and even from them you got repeated complains for these rock-bottom character picks. What can I say more?! Sure there will be some vocal fans, like yourself, praising "punishing and interesting downsides" but at end of day hard numbers bring sales. And I for one know what future skins I'll never buy, same as the rock-bottom tier characters (bulk-player pickings wise). Only time will tell how all this will age.

[wigfrids hat]

On 6/28/2020 at 6:33 PM, CarlZalph said:

Wendy's popularity shot back up to #1 since around June 20th.

As of right now, a snapshot at 1:30PM EST states:

Players: 19744
  In Lobby:   698 ( 3.535251%)
  Modded  :  1948 ( 9.866288%)
  Vanilla : 17101 (86.613655%)
    wendy       : 2662 (15.566341%)
    wilson      : 1992 (11.648442%)
    wathgrithr  : 1976 (11.554880%)
    walter      : 1587 ( 9.280159%)
    woodie      : 1444 ( 8.443951%)
    wickerbottom: 1025 ( 5.993802%)
    wx78        : 1022 ( 5.976259%)
    wolfgang    :  923 ( 5.397345%)
    webber      :  887 ( 5.186831%)
    winona      :  824 ( 4.818432%)
    willow      :  708 ( 4.140109%)
    waxwell     :  589 ( 3.444243%)
    wortox      :  462 ( 2.701596%)
    wormwood    :  355 ( 2.075902%)
    warly       :  338 ( 1.976493%)
    wurt        :  215 ( 1.257236%)
    wes         :   92 ( 0.537980%)

 

;____; guess i have to pick a new wiafu. mine seems to be king of the trash-tier

[Zeklo]

11 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Also Wormwood "is available for free for all owners of Don't Starve Hamlet on Steam" plus was gratuitously given to all Hamlet beta-testers (that also got Hamlet as a gift from KLei). Thus your point doesn't really stands on its legs to mainly account for their very sub-par performance in bulk player-base. 

Uh. That doesn't really change anything I said. Instead of needing to purchase a DLC, they have to purchase/already own a separate game + DLC. Sure, Wormwood has another way of being obtained—so yeah they might be considered easier to obtain. Very marginally though.

The numbers are still going to be heavily swayed by accessibility in comparison.

14 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Truth of matter is Warly represents the perfect embodiment of pick-and-drop/swap character in late game for his combat-buff dishes ...

I agree? I'm guessing you're just quoting me for a minor portion of the argument here, but uh... yeah I don't like Warly.

15 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

... Wormwood has a bit more range but a very passive and boring game-play, not to mention punishing in combat.

Split here. Yeah Wormwood's style of play tends to be vastly different unless you're doing challenge runs or have a Wortox, but I like that particular style of play. Opinions. Wholeheartedly agree on the punishing in combat thing, though that's kinda of the point.

17 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Likewise I don't even count the almost-weekly complain posts about Warly, Wormwood, Wurt from various forumites asking certain buffs or reworks - remember: vast majority of players don't know or care for these forums, and from said small percentage coming here, a tiny minority actually posts: and even from them you got repeated complains for these rock-bottom character picks.

Warly's outlying problem is his pick & swap potential. I personally don't kind his downside fun (opinion), and it can be circumvented entirely via Celestial Portal while still reaping the benefits of his perks. This is a glaring issue.

Wurt is a bit all over the place. With some merm interactions being clunky (guards walking into the unknown for the rest of their existence & etc) and not having a specific niche. To me, her downside is the most enjoyable aspect, but it's not a particularly challenging one—her perks just don't captivate me the same way as others do (opinion).

Wormwood is, as you said, punishing. He's not a great pick for tackling those raid bosses or whatever, but that's over all fine? This is only really a problem when playing solo (which is why I picked him less in Hamlet). Here though, he's an absolute joy to play in a group (imo), and yeah naturally "support" roles aren't very favored in most games. MMORPG? MOBA? High demand for support but not as many players.

Wortox isn't even that far behind the others in terms of active players (as I said, DLC are bound to be at the bottom due to accessibility), yet the vocal majority loves him. And the thing is, the only complaints is that he's borderline OP. Like seriously, he's ridiculously easy to play, and I'm not even that great at this game. Still at the bottom though—not because of any "punishing" downsides. Simply because of accessibility.

33 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Sure there will be some vocal fans, like yourself, praising "punishing and interesting downsides" but at end of day hard numbers bring sales. 

You seem to have pinned me as your "enemy" despite my rather neutral comment on a simple thing to consider. The one other post I made on this thread was very critical and skeptical of the DLC characters perks/downsides—an opinion I still hold.

So don't vilify me for your convenience, please.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

 

I guess there is playing more new players than experienced so these players will try to pick a easy charactrr so they can learn something. Also people has a tendency to choose always the op character in all games (check any moba and the pickratio).

If klei hear all the post about buffs... oh men this game will be ruined. Ofc some of them needs little changes but some people just want to disconnect their brains to play, which is fine, but for that there is other characters, map editing and even other more relaxed games

Meanwhile veterans and true fans are the ones who buy more skins because i dont see a 5h player buying bundles.

Also there is strong character so i dont see the point of releasing character without hard downsides even if they are less picked just because casuals and people who play this game in the easier way dont want to pick wormwood a heavy fact to dont release more of this kind. We have an example with walter which could be a nightmere for a beguinner but is fun for someone who dont doe in the first 10 days.

Its been talked a lot of times that even thos casuals leave the server before winter so do you thing winter should be removed? No, just because slme people want to take short cuts or having a easy experience doesnt mean that is good for the game make everything as easy as playing wigfrid or wendy

Is so interesting to have downsides like wurt,walter, wormwood or maxwell

[pedregales]

On 6/29/2020 at 11:54 AM, Viktor234 said:

No.

Before her Update it did look something like this:

with Wendy being not even in the top 3 of the most popular characters in DST.

Source: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/profile/552758-carlzalph/?status=30456&type=status

I have to disagree with this. This data only tells us which are the characters more often picked by players in public matches, this has little to nothing to do with popularity and more with how easy/fun a character is (or seems to be) and it is not considering how many of them chose that character for the first time, or if it was the first time they chose a character at all. Example: Wes is the least picked character by far (according to this data), but we can all agree he is a rather popular character even if just for the meme; he is at the very least more known than Winona or Warly.

But Wendy has always been a very popular character in Don't Starve despite not being good at much or anything important, and being awful at boss killing. In general terms, she was almost a bad character if not for her few exploits (which just made her a barely decent character), and that is why she was not picked nearly as often as characters like WX-78, Wickerbottom, and Wolfgang (that are/were marketed by the community as the "holy trinity" due to how good they are in general, it is even funny Wendy is just right below them). But her re-work corrected her downsides and increased her strengths, making her a far more viable pick.

[Thomas Die]

Honestly i think you should put this on the modding thing as well since a lot of mods follow Mary sue and Gary Stu.

[wigfrids hat]

6 minutes ago, pedregales said:

snip

ummmm.... something that is chosen most often from a pool of options is something that is popular. just because some people might be new to the game doesn't mean you can ignore the raw numbers.

[MondayNight]

22 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Uh. That doesn't really change anything I said. Instead of needing to purchase a DLC, they have to purchase/already own a separate game + DLC. Sure, Wormwood has another way of being obtained—so yeah they might be considered easier to obtain. Very marginally though.

The numbers are still going to be heavily swayed by accessibility in comparison.

You seem to forget the actual numbers: there were ~12k free Hamlet licenses given to beta testers alone. Even assuming only 1/2 of them owned DST as well (DS-DST bundles are quite promoted), still a mere 350-400 Wormwood total player-count across servers on average translates to 5.8-6.6%. This as an 50% rule-of-thumb that doesn't even account numbers of DS: Hamlet and DST copies sold from back then/October 2018 till now June 2020. An optimistic free-given 5-6%. Doesn't look good at all as a template-character regarding "what should be applied as cons and on what magnitude for future reworks and new characters".

 

Imo to boost player-pickings by offering more viable alternatives of current under-performing characters:

  · Warly should regain his ability to eat raw ingredients (with adequate con - very low satiation);

  · Wurt should have better merms as well as more types (like fishing ones from SW) of them with better AI, loyalty etc;

  · Wormwood should have a more viable healing alternative, as in decreased application time for Compost Wrap by 1/2 of current one;

 

There clearly is a reason why these characters are rock-bottom and is not mainly due to "being behind a pay-wall". They are plain weak/tedious and epitome of pick-and-swap/drop-character. More so as most people don't play as a team, where someone (Wolfgang/Wigfrid) hunts, Warly cooks, Wormwood plants a lot to get healed by Wortox and Wurt munches shoelaces in swamp - this can painfully be seen in pubs and dedicated open communities too. Even most advanced players from forumites here admitted they are playing "mostly/all time alone". Thus making the rock-bottom character viable in solo-runs for most people (middle-of-road skilled players) would not only boost their "pickability" but also theoretically increase future skin-sales for these characters.

 

Plus regarding the Celestial Portal dilemma of swapping characters: Idol should cost a lot more than 1 Purple Gem + 1 Moon Nugget. Make it like 1 Purple Gem + 5-10 Moon Nuggets + 3-5 Moon Glass (at least with this players will be encouraged to sail and find Lunar archipelago - aka RoT content being mandatory if one desires character swapping). Because changing characters is that powerful.

 

PS: Warly & Winona (the most pick-build-drop/swap characters) should go the Wormwood route regarding crops - their constant presence should give a bon to their recipes/structures as in a Warly player gets more from their recipes (+20/+30%) as well as giving a fraction bonus (+5/+10%) to other players if he's around while Winona's structures make more damage/provide more light (are more efficient) if a Winona is close - let's say 1-screen radius. Also Winona's catapults don't regenerate if no Winona is present on server or even irreparably break over time. At least such measures will mitigate somewhat their current "pick'n'drop-ability".

 

 

16 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

...people has a tendency to choose always the op character in all games (check any moba and the pickratio)

Advanced players consider Wicker, Wolf, WX and Wortox as "OP". Look where they are at in total server pickings. Also visit dedicated community servers that have a lot of advanced players and see what they are playing regularly. Hint: is not the "OP" ones.

 

16 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

..veterans and true fans are the ones who buy more skins..

Don't confuse "try-hards" with fans. "Try-hards" usually are belligerent, combat&survival-oriented, hardcore *flexing* types demanding harder DST setups disregarding bulk player-base while considering themselves "true fans/veterans" - see a pattern?!

Most fans that sink a lot of time and money into the game aren't like that.

 

16 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Is so interesting to have downsides like wurt,walter, wormwood or maxwell

That may be your opinion. Certainly is not mine. And judging by the almost-weekly character thread-complains (Warly, Wormwood, Wurt the most) I see popping even on these forums (as previously mentioned, a very-very small number of DST owners actually visit and comment on forums; bonus: DST Steam discussions) I would beg to disagree even further.

 

 

My bottom point is: cons shouldn't be quite punishing but a more middle-of-road approach akin, as said, the "positive top-pick/models" Wigfrid and Wendy. Else one gets current situation, where almost all new characters went to bottom of server-pickings list. Those are the numbers.

[pedregales]

27 minutes ago, gaymime said:

ummmm.... something that is chosen most often from a pool of options is something that is popular. just because some people might be new to the game doesn't mean you can ignore the raw numbers.

I never said to ignore these numbers, did I? What I tried to say was that this is only 1 perspective, and a very skewed one at that. The "popular" characters (for fan art, or just being casually mentioned as a favorite in the forum or subreddit) have almost always been (in no particular order) Wilson, Willow, Wendy, Webber, and Wes. It is no surprise that 4 of this 5 characters even got funko pop figures with DST skins tied to them, only Wes didn't get one.

[wigfrids hat]

1 hour ago, pedregales said:

"This data only tells us which are the characters more often picked by players in public matches, this has little to nothing to do with popularity and more with how easy/fun a character is"

except you did. when you tell someone to treat something as non-relevant you are in effect saying to ignore it :/

[Mike23Ua]

I just wanted to correct something here- DST is a game that officially released on Xbox One in 2017, it is the Sequel to DS and therefore it should be treated as Such..

DS was NOT a peaceful base building game, that games description even read “a world where almost everything hates you and wants you to die.”

DST however.. removes much of DS’s Challenges- Blocked paths heavily guarded by enemies like Pig King Warriors.., Areas that are Blocked off completely without the player doing a certain thing (like intentionally raising and lowering sanity thresholds).. The Hamlet DLC add on even takes that a step further by making Entire BIOMES Inaccessible to the player without having the proper gear required to be there.

Dont confuse the people who are expecting DST (a 2017 sequel to a 2013 game) to be more like the game that came before it as being “Try-Hards” 

DST has the potential to be fun and enjoyable to a wide range of player skill levels, something that extends beyond just being based on the character choice you pick when starting the game.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if chopping trees in DST had the odds of Harming Your Health, Spawning Enemy Mobs, Or simply making your life more of a Hassle.. (Coconuts dropping on your head, Scorpions and Snakes attacking, Piko stealing your tree seeds..) that there would less casuals playing this game.. meanwhile people like myself who crave that kind of stuff will enjoy it.

Which is exactly why DST should have various modes.. I’m waiting for Klei’s version of what an Uncompromising Mode should be- And after going back and play DS Solo, DS Shipwrecked & DS Hamlet... I am confident that Klei knows how to deliver upon that Uncompromising feeling.

Downsides, well to be more precise... Harsh Annoying crippling Downsides only limit the choices of characters people will play.. and buy skins for.

When There could be two separate modes... one without the extreme Downsides, and one more Uncompromising version where downsides play a vital role in gameplay.
 

DST is the Sequel to DS Solo.. and it’s about time that it started to feel more and more like a true sequel.

[pedregales]

10 minutes ago, gaymime said:

except you did. when you tell someone to treat something as non-relevant you are in effect saying to ignore it :/

I didn't say it was not relevant at all in that quote? I explained what the data proposed actually meant: show us the pick rate of characters in public matches. The only "wrong" thing in the sentence you quoted of me is that I said "it has little to nothing to do with popularity" (which is valid, but still flawed), when I should have said "it is not directly related to popularity". People might choose a character for a plethora of reasons other than because they actually like the character:

• Based on the characters already selected. Say you are playing with friends, and they pick Winona, and despite wanting to pick Winona, you decide to go for Willow to avoid having the same skills.
• Because they are "meta". People might prefer another character's "playstyle", but choose a "meta" character instead. And in the opposite side, avoid choosing a character because it is anti-meta.
• Want to try a new/different character. This is the most interesting one, because in the other 2 cases the person might be choosing the next character they like, but in this case the person is trying it out for the first time, it is not a character they like gameplay-wise.

It is also important to consider that this data does not distinguish between completely new players and already established players. New players can't choose a "favorite character" because they have not played with any character at all, so they can't have a "favorite character". Save maybe for how they look (or what they think they represent), which is one of the other perspectives for the popularity of a character.

[CarlZalph]

5 hours ago, gaymime said:

ummmm.... something that is chosen most often from a pool of options is something that is popular. just because some people might be new to the game doesn't mean you can ignore the raw numbers.

1 hour ago, pedregales said:

"it has little to nothing to do with popularity" (which is valid, but still flawed), when I should have said "it is not directly related to popularity".

This appears to be an issue of semantics with respect to how popularity is being defined.  In terms of pick rate versus in terms of how much a player likes a character- both are valid from the right perspective.

The numbers only show pick rates, which I'd say that the highest picked character is popular.  Not in the respect of how liked they are, but in how frequent you will see them.

 

1 hour ago, pedregales said:

It is also important to consider that this data does not distinguish between completely new players and already established players. New players can't choose a "favorite character" because they have not played with any character at all, so they can't have a "favorite character".

This is correct and an axis that should be used for balancing purposes.  The numbers I push out are more for a generalization purpose.  When one character is a chunk higher than all of the others consistently, then it's highly implied that the character is either too good or too easy.  Likewise the inverse for characters not picked (wes).  This is not to say that the character isn't fun.

There's quite a lot of factors one would need to consider that pick rates don't show, and here's a list I thought about:  Is it a DLC character, player's total play time, friends in the same server and their choice of character, whether or not "everyone pick one character only" indirect rule is in effect, join total day count on server, other players' choices of characters already on the server, whether or not the player is a "nomad" or "baser", overall goal of the player at the time (ruins rusher/boss rusher/lunar rusher/etc, base builder, farming simulator, cooking).

 

But, ultimately, Klei is seemingly balancing around how fun a character feels and plays rather than the numbers game.  Games are meant to be enjoyed as a form of entertainment.  Too harsh a downside and it can push a character into unfun territory due to the upkeep.  They also do seem to poke around the forums and other media like streams and such to gleam overall playerbase reactions on things as a bigger influence to change things, further enforcing the 'fun' factor theory.

[TemporarySolutn]

On 4/27/2020 at 10:12 AM, Theukon-dos said:

 Don't Starve together is, obviously, a team-based game.

I almost exclusively play by myself, the only reason I don't play DS is because DST has more content and skins, I love the skins. And the ability to if I want to play with my friends I can flex my 100% Webber

[CaRat]

I main webber because their downsides actually mean something and says alot about them and makes the playstyles different.

 Webber -  Webber is my true main 100% he adds variety and fun to your game from being hated by pigs and loved by spiders adding many more solutions to your problems like:

 ( "OH NO a moose/goose spawned at base and we cannot collect our weapons and armor to fight her" Now spider man comes in and brings 100 spiders with him to kill moose/goose boom problem solved) yes this actually happened I had to save someone with spiders.

sure you could have a Wolfgang kite her while you get stuff for him to tank but where's the fun in that it's much funnier and easier to watch spooders chomp on moose/goose.

[MondayNight]

10 minutes ago, Webber is bes said:

I main webber because their downsides actually mean something and says alot about them and makes the playstyles different.

 Webber -  Webber is my true main 100% he adds variety and fun to your game from being hated by pigs and loved by spiders adding many more solutions to your problems like:

 ( "OH NO a moose/goose spawned at base and we cannot collect our weapons and armor to fight her" Now spider man comes in and brings 100 spiders with him to kill moose/goose boom problem solved) yes this actually happened I had to save someone with spiders.

sure you could have a Wolfgang kite her while you get stuff for him to tank but where's the fun in that it's much funnier and easier to watch spooders chomp on moose/goose.

Even assuming spiders killed M/G, they certainly ate all meat and then, if left unchecked even a bit, they attacked rest of non-Webber players. From all types of followers, spiders are the least efficient and even detrimental when talking about meat-based loot/food. Also efficient advanced Webber players that work in team with rest of players as well are a rarity when taking into account bulk player-base servers. Just some observations.