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On the Utility of Space missions


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So it was an exciting thing to try and I guess to beat the game you have to make it to the temporal tear, but overall it seems like space isn't very useful.  Yes, you basically need supercoolant to make LOX and H2 to get further than the first few layers, and supercoolant can be used to improve all of your aquatuners efficiency.  I suppose if you want to use an AT to make a sour gas boiler than the thermium is useful, but I haven't needed to do that so I haven't had any need for the stuff.  Visco-gel is kind of neat, but really you can accomplish the same things in other ways.  Insulation you need for LH2 delivery to rockets to get further but not really for anything else.  Everyone seems to agree that gassy moos are useless.  The rare resources to make the special materials can all be found in the first two rings, so why bother going any further?  Am I missing something here?  I sent a bunch of cargo missions to 10-30k and now have more rare resources than I know what to do with and have converted my two rockets to hydrogen and am doing to research the rest of the way now just for the heck of it, but it feels like I'm just waiting out the clock ( cycle 1213 now ) until I get to the temporal tear to consider the world done.

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i largely agree.

 

I'm just sending rockets after rockets to pick up fullerene (for supercoolant). And once you have a bit of niobium you can "grow" it by decomposing thermium so you never need to send more rockets out after your first 100kg. Insulation is nice... but i've never really NEEDED it when i have ceramic and produce much more of it for cheaper and faster.

 

Overall, it's SO much work to get rockets working that it's often more worth it just to use non-space materials and deal with the issues than to go to space. 

The only thing i really keep coming back for is super coolant since i use so much of it, but it feels like such a boring grind continually launching rockets to get it. A lot times i just stop the game and start a new map before i need to use any space materials. My enjoyment falls off a cliff as i get to space. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, speckle21 said:

A lot times i just stop the game and start a new map before i need to use any space materials. My enjoyment falls off a cliff as i get to space.

Same here.
I enjoyed starting many times.
Every time i open space biome, my fun changes.
Space biome is first useless thing and it gives not really rewards.
Mostly i completely ignore that part (space biome - rockets), because they cause more frustration then fun.
Regolith handling still sucks.
Moos don't work well.
Fullerene is not really needed, when i have no rockets.
I could think of something like a space hat/spock ears/ mono eye mutation, for dupes as reward, you then could use in later games.
Early game rewards you well for exploring.
Lategame in survival is waiting for building and then priming for dozen of cycles.

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2 hours ago, Oozinator said:


Lategame in survival is waiting for building and then priming for dozen of cycles.

Oh yes THIS. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Late game feels like waiting for stuff to happen. Now don't get me wrong, most games are like that because late game by definition is after you've handled all the tedious stuff and built up a lot of automation and self-sustaining stuff. So there is no reason it shouldn't be waiting for stuff to happen.

 

But early SPACE has that Built-Wait-Build-wait problem. So it's less enjoyable. And once you've built up most of space and gotten things going... that doesn't change. it's still Load-Launch-Wait-Load-Launch-Wait-Load-Launch-Wait.... and what's the ultimate gain from doing that repeatedly? Fullerene and maybe insulation?

 

If the Devs are reading this i want to make clear I LOVE THE GAME, space and all. The first 5-6 times playing space were indeed fun grinding through and learning it for the first time. I love the sense of accomplishment after getting to the temporal tear. And occasionally, like 1 out of 3-5 games, i do exploit space to get space materials for things like sour gas boilers or super efficient coolers.

But overall replayability of space is much worse than the pre-space game. I hate to admit it, but sometimes i just turn on sandbox and give myself the space materials because getting them normally is too painful. 

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They said something about rockets in the latest dev-cast, but I am not sure they realize that many people do not really enjoy that part. For me, it is OK as by that time I am mostly running the game by itself anyways. But it could be better.

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Space materials allow for more extreme temperature management, but there's no application outside of LOX or LH2. Raw materials for survivability or sustainability are not really a consideration at that point.

In Factorio, megabases are constructed to launch x rockets per minute as a goal or milestone. In ONI the point is kinda moot since it takes basically no time to refuel a rocket, but it takes forever for a rocket to come back.

Bigger better rockets are currently made for distance, not speed, while more cargo bays/megarockets are limited by weight. Some sort of resource intensive/extreme temperature requirement speed booster could be interesting. Or likewise for some sort of space critter. The limiting factor for gassy moos is more real estate right now, especially directly competing with solar panels which are not even comparable as far as hassle goes.

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Principle complaints about space are that it's too slow and there aren't enough rewards for doing it.  Launching a rocket for the first time is a challenge, refueling and launching again is not.  Additionally, it takes way too long to refuel a steam engine which is next to useless for any practical applications.

Massively cutting down on travel times and making distance scale far less would be a huge help as a starting point.  Having non-rocket based things tied to rocket research would help with rewards.  Giving us cargo bays straight up and removing/reworking steam rockets would avoid the most tedious part of rocketry and let you gather advanced resources almost immediately.  Finally, advanced resources would be a lot better if there was more non-space related stuff that actually required them in interesting ways.  The more build puzzles to solve and waste products to deal with in the game, the better.

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1 hour ago, DarkMaster13 said:

Principle complaints about space are that it's too slow and there aren't enough rewards for doing it.  Launching a rocket for the first time is a challenge, refueling and launching again is not.  Additionally, it takes way too long to refuel a steam engine which is next to useless for any practical applications.

Massively cutting down on travel times and making distance scale far less would be a huge help as a starting point.  Having non-rocket based things tied to rocket research would help with rewards.  Giving us cargo bays straight up and removing/reworking steam rockets would avoid the most tedious part of rocketry and let you gather advanced resources almost immediately.  Finally, advanced resources would be a lot better if there was more non-space related stuff that actually required them in interesting ways.  The more build puzzles to solve and waste products to deal with in the game, the better.

I agree on all of that, except that refueling steam engines is a problem. Just throw 100t of hot Regolith in an enclosed area, add water as needed and you have steam for many, many launches. 

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I am not agreeing whit your opinion. If you want goals you make goals. Like:

Convert all you wild shine bugs to abyss bugs without tame them (done that)

Convert all your abyssalite to insulation (still trying... reed fibre bottle neck - polluted water bottle neck)

Convert all the heat from your magma to power. Grind the cooled igneous rock to sand, convert it to coal. make more power and co2 (done that)

And the last one. Vacum all the exterior of the base, use all the resources of the map, and control all the input of the resources (still trying)

(ex: convert insulation to sand, sand to coal, burn coal for power and co2, convert all the Co2 to polluted water, use polluted water for growing thimble reeds, use reed fibre whit isoresin for making insulation an repeat, heat the solid co2 and convert it to co2, convert the co2 to polluted water, heat the solid methane to natural gas, use it for power, heat the ice to water, use it for getting polluted water, convert the solid O2 to LOX)

In all my games polluted water is the bottle neck. Use it all my polluted water from the map, converted all the slime to algae and polutted water, converted all the co2 from the map to polluted water, even captured most of the co2 exhaust of the rocket for more polluted water, and still this is the bottle neck for wasting all the abyssalite from my asteroid...

P.S.

Quote

How?

By melting thermium and converting to niobium. This is the method to get rid of wolfram. The melted niobium you can vented to space. :)

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My thoughts on the whole issue:

  • Space missions should be slow, that is fine
  • The set-the-correct fuel amount minigame is tedious, and unautomatable, since it requires manual entry. Rockets should fuel by themselves to get the range they need, or allow some automation to take care of it
  • Managing pilots is tedious, and locking dupes in is cruel. Piloting rockets should be like other jobs, when one is needed, a dupe should come and do the job.
  • Rebuilding rockets should not be slow, having to deconstruct and reconstruct part by part is super annoying. You should be able to plan out a rocket in one go
  • There is no point ever in using not 5 research modules. Either only one module with 5 times the weight should be required, or the whole system should be redesigned to introduce some interesting tradeoffs
  • Space biome construction is boring. You MUST wall off the map, or everything you build will be destroyed. This enforces a lot of sameness on all space builds, plus it looks ugly. Scanners, solar cells and the telescope all look like they want to be under open sky, instead of under some hideous mesh tile-robominer-bunker door combination
  • Many of the new biomes plants and critters can't be imported from space, which is sad, since completing your collection for critters and plants would be one possible reward for mastering space.
  • Gassy moos are useless since they are a complicated solution in want of a problem. If you can fuel rockets, you can also build a natgas boiler or build a solar powerplant. They need something unique, even a morale boost from making milkshakes would be great. That at least has bragging rights. Mae built a hydrogen rocket and went to space because she REALLY wants a milkshake.
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19 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I agree on all of that, except that refueling steam engines is a problem. Just throw 100t of hot Regolith in an enclosed area, add water as needed and you have steam for many, many launches. 

It's not producing the fuel that's the problem, it's the time it takes to put the fuel into the rocket.  It takes 90 seconds to fill a petroleum or hydrogen fuel tank.  It takes 900 seconds to fill a steam rocket.  That's 1.5 cycles sitting on the pad waiting for steam to trickle in.

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1 hour ago, DarkMaster13 said:

It's not producing the fuel that's the problem, it's the time it takes to put the fuel into the rocket.  It takes 90 seconds to fill a petroleum or hydrogen fuel tank.  It takes 900 seconds to fill a steam rocket.  That's 1.5 cycles sitting on the pad waiting for steam to trickle in.

If that is what bothers you, ok then.

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5 hours ago, Mastermindx said:

If you have enough clean water, algae terrarium are pretty good at converting it to polluted water.

Out of algae?  That's what puft are for!

Was there a secret fix for pufts so they produce more, more reliably? Well i thought...actually pufts are only really good for fps wrecking...

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17 minutes ago, Yoma_Nosme said:

Was there a secret fix for pufts so they produce more, more reliably? Well i thought...actually pufts are only really good for fps wrecking...

Same here. I tried that wayyy back (in connection with Morbs though) and it was tedious and not really worth the effort. Sure, some people specialize in that path and that is perfectly fine, but as a general solution it sucks.

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15 hours ago, Yoma_Nosme said:

Was there a secret fix for pufts so they produce more, more reliably? Well i thought...actually pufts are only really good for fps wrecking...

Well... I had a single ranch... so typically 5 puft and 1 prince. Thats enough to sustain 4 algae terrariums, which in turn can "pollute" up to 700 kg of water per cycle.

 

Personally, I was using it more to sustain pacu breeding.

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