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Low power early resource but precise cooling?


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Cooling gasses and liquids frustrate me a bit and all of the methods I have seen are either inaccurate (like wheezeworts, reverse flow, or simply piping through a cold biome) , consume too much power for the early game (anything over 200-300W is too much) , or require materials (oil, steel, although I did see designs that avoid them) or technologies that are not available early on (steam engines or significant quantities of refined metal before the refinery) .


What I would like to do is:

- Cool gasses (i.e.: O2 from a SPOM) or liquids (perhaps 31C water from a swamp biome) down to exactly the balmy 20-22C ideal for the core of the base.  Accurate output temperature regardless of input temperature is a must for my goal.

- It doesn't matter if it heats up my cooling liquid (probably polluted water) to 100+C, I will worry about cooling that separately and not necessarily in any accurate way, and initially I might just do it by driving the pH2O through a cold biome.

- It must consume little power.

- It is fine if it does its job slowly, so long as it does it.

 

Is there a decent way to do this or must I really choose between inaccurate temperature output or jumping straight to a steam engine design?

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200-300W is too much? I guess we can't use an air pump then, that's 240W.

Frankly it's easier to heat and cool a liquid more accurately than it is to heat and cool air. If you have a body of liquid at or near your preferred temperature you could pipe that around (sorry it's 240W to do so) or you can put tempshift plates behind it and extend those out to where you want it to be cool (expensive, but no power cost) Eventually the water would warm up, but hopefully by then you have enough power to run an aquatuner to cool it off somewhere.

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29 minutes ago, zOldBulldog said:

Is there a decent way to do this or must I really choose between inaccurate temperature output or jumping straight to a steam engine design?

It is either this or you need an amount of colder fluid somewhere. Like from a slush geyser or a cold biom. Just make a closed pipe or vent loop in the cold fluid, feed it with a bridge, empty it with a liquid or gas shutoff coupled with a pipe or vent temperature sensor and you are good to go for 10 watts. Control the heat transfer with the materials you are using for the closed loop. Insert a bridge in the closed loop right after the shutoff, otherwise your fluid/gas will be confused where to go and get stuck. Melt your cold biom that way and get a cozy base, will last for quite a while.

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How is pumping through the cold biome inaccurate? It is temporary at best, but not inaccurate. Consider something like this:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.48951d7f481f1169f8e948de484c6662.png

Consumes 10W of power, only needs a cold biome and automation technology, could be improved in a few ways, but does what you've described. Accuracy is well within a degree margin.

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My SPOM has 7 bottom-fed wheezeworts cooling a room full of 2kg of hydrogen that cools the oxygen as it comes out of the SPOM. The output temperatures for the oxygen itself is -55c, the system has been running for about 300 cycles, and the ambient temperature of most of (the residential areas of my) base hovers around 26c, at cycle 340.

If I needed more precise locations of cooling early game, I'd definitely be looking at wheezeworts. They have a decent labour cost, but they're pretty effective at cooling.

Also worth noting, my system is horrendously far from optimized. With 7 wheezeworts and a SPOM, I feel like I could have the ambient temperature of my base kept at ~20c fairly easily. As-is I leak a ton of cold pretty much all over the place, instead of directing that -55c oxygen only to where I need it.

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I agree with the above. 

Now, regarding the aquatuner...if you would start with a pool of cold ph2o from a molten ice biome there you pipe your oxygen through in radiant pipes. And have radiant liquid pipes cooling the ph2o to keep temp low. Your aquatuner wouldn't have to run 100%...more like 20-30%..because the ph2o is already cool and 1kg of oxygen has way less energy than 10kg of ph20....

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I love the idea of a loop with a temp sensor to evacuate liquid/gas that has dropped to the right temp.   And for portability to any spot it could even flow through a few wheezeworts.   I am going to have to try this for precise temp control.   I wonder why I have not seen such designs before, it is just brilliant.
 

I would not mind the aquatuner, but I thought those consumed a crazy 1000W a pop.  Am I wrong?   Or is it really an intermittent 1000w that averages out to much less?

 

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3 hours ago, zOldBulldog said:

I would not mind the aquatuner, but I thought those consumed a crazy 1000W a pop.  Am I wrong?   Or is it really an intermittent 1000w that averages out to much less?

It's a very expensive 1200W, and a non trivial chunk of steel as well. It's not early, it's not simple and it's not low power, but it is the most powerful by far.

The thermo regulator is a baby version of the aquatuner, working with gases and costing 240W. It's available very early, a lot less powerful, and much more forgiving to use.

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The super simple way to cool oxygen from your SPOM is to run a radiant gas pipe through some of your starting water.  This very easily achieves a very specific temperature range.  Realistically it transfers such a trivial amount of heat to the water it's fine for the early game.  Worst case you re-cool the water with a bit of ice.

Also be smart with the water going in to the SPOM.  The air coming out should be no hotter than the water going in, right?  If you put some radiant pipes around the electrolyzer, the electrolyzer itself will run about +10°C hotter than the water.  That last minute heat added to the water helps increase the heat deletion effect of the electrolyzer.  The air comes out at 70°C either way, so if the electrolyzer can be kept below that, the electrolyzer itself will help cool the air.  If it runs hotter than that, the electrolyzer will radiate heat in to your air and you'll effectively be cooling the electrolyzer later when you cool the air.  I like using water around 30°C for the electrolyzer.  I'm sure somebody will tell me I'm doing it wrong.

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14 hours ago, wd_ said:

How is pumping through the cold biome inaccurate? It is temporary at best, but not inaccurate. Consider something like this:

  Hide contents

image.thumb.png.48951d7f481f1169f8e948de484c6662.png

Consumes 10W of power, only needs a cold biome and automation technology, could be improved in a few ways, but does what you've described. Accuracy is well within a degree margin.

Excuse my extreme nubeness...Can you please explain this a little more for me? I don't understand what does the pumping, though I'm guessing it's something to do with the liquid bridge?

I made it but no fluid flows. 

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11 hours ago, SpreadsheetGamr said:

... I'm sure somebody will tell me I'm doing it wrong.

I will be that someone. Water has a much higher heat capacity that oxygen, so it is much more efficient to cool the air after it comes out of the electrolyser than cooling the ingoing water. By pumping in cold water you are foregoing the heat deleting capacity of the electrolyser.

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1 hour ago, Majestix said:

I will be that someone. Water has a much higher heat capacity that oxygen, so it is much more efficient to cool the air after it comes out of the electrolyser than cooling the ingoing water. By pumping in cold water you are foregoing the heat deleting capacity of the electrolyser.

*slow clap*

You are not the hero I wanted, but you are the hero these forums deserve.

But pause for a moment to consider... who said anything about cooling the water?

In the context of this thread, we're talking about early game, low power ways to produce cool oxygen.  I dunno about you, but in that context, I often find myself with ample 30°C water.

To ignore that and attempt to source some 95°C water... because I'm concerned about achieving the maximum heat deletion with the electrolyzer?  It's almost as if the theory crafting has trumped actually playing the game.

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2 hours ago, SpreadsheetGamr said:

*slow clap*

You are not the hero I wanted, but you are the hero these forums deserve.

But pause for a moment to consider... who said anything about cooling the water?

In the context of this thread, we're talking about early game, low power ways to produce cool oxygen.  I dunno about you, but in that context, I often find myself with ample 30°C water.

To ignore that and attempt to source some 95°C water... because I'm concerned about achieving the maximum heat deletion with the electrolyzer?  It's almost as if the theory crafting has trumped actually playing the game.

Add to this the option of playing on arboria, where you won't have easy access to gold, and suddenly that 95c water requires steel to pipe around.
We're so far from early game and into spreadsheeting (nice name btw) at this point, that you may as well be playing in excel.

*slow claps along*

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Would you like free infinite cooling/heating to the temperature of the stored liquid?

image.thumb.png.eb1ac201cd4cec0d86293cdac5cc5436.png

Similar to my decontamination build, this abuses rounding. The valve only lets 1g/s through, so when it encounters the ~5t it loses any heat it had (the second tank might be needed in case of extreme temperature differences).

Whatever the temperature of the liquid in the storage, that's what it'll cool/heat to.

The only downside is it's not that fast, unless you build a couple in parallel.

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3 hours ago, SpreadsheetGamr said:

*slow clap*

... some hostile rambling

...

something about 95°C water...

 

1 hour ago, FantasticMoose said:

...something about playing in excel

*slow claps along*

Wow, one does not encounter such a hostility very often on these forums. Not sure what you guys have been smoking, but you better lay off that stuff.

All I was saying is that if you have heat to delete somewhere (which I am assuming, because otherwise we don't need to have this discussion), then feeding 30C water into the electrolyser is not the way to do it. Instead, pipe it around, let it soak up some of that heat, and delete it in the electrolyser. This costs no extra power.

As for these nightmares you have been having about steel, or sourcing 95C water, or excel: as I say, lay off that stuff you are smoking. 'Cause whereever you got these fantasies from, it was not from anything anybody here said.

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13 hours ago, Foxster said:

Excuse my extreme nubeness...Can you please explain this a little more for me? I don't understand what does the pumping, though I'm guessing it's something to do with the liquid bridge?

I made it but no fluid flows. 

Water will flow by itself from any exit to any input as long as there's an empty pipe after it. Without the liquid bridge, it won't flow, because there's a lot of inputs between two exits and liquid would not know where to go.

Spoiler

image.png.c3a9bb7339993c8e33265166f0c6740f.png

With a liquid bridge, every segment of a pipe is an exit-input sequence.

Spoiler

image.png.eb00e5734569754b2989ce21512be796.png

If you've built an exact same structure but it doesn't flow, it might be something with the build order, I guess. I've built it like this, added water through the pipe at the right and deconstructed the pipe later, and it worked.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.5f6200c4a86a47bfe6a3428521189a42.png

Actually, adding another bridge on one of the ends will make the system better, as the water won't clog as much.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.3ac5d2df6f873f998a4e5f58f7f66a9a.png

 

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On 9/20/2019 at 8:25 AM, zOldBulldog said:

Cooling gasses and liquids frustrate me a bit and all of the methods I have seen are either inaccurate (like wheezeworts, reverse flow, or simply piping through a cold biome) , consume too much power for the early game (anything over 200-300W is too much) , or require materials (oil, steel, although I did see designs that avoid them) or technologies that are not available early on (steam engines or significant quantities of refined metal before the refinery) .


What I would like to do is:

- Cool gasses (i.e.: O2 from a SPOM) or liquids (perhaps 31C water from a swamp biome) down to exactly the balmy 20-22C ideal for the core of the base.  Accurate output temperature regardless of input temperature is a must for my goal.

- It doesn't matter if it heats up my cooling liquid (probably polluted water) to 100+C, I will worry about cooling that separately and not necessarily in any accurate way, and initially I might just do it by driving the pH2O through a cold biome.

- It must consume little power.

- It is fine if it does its job slowly, so long as it does it.

 

Is there a decent way to do this or must I really choose between inaccurate temperature output or jumping straight to a steam engine design?

For these requirements, I think an anti-entropy thermo nullifier might be the way to go.

When you are far enough along the tech tree, reconsider aquatuner/turbines. Their net cost is hardly any more than an AETN (in terms of hydrogen).

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On 9/20/2019 at 10:55 AM, Stoned said:

It is either this or you need an amount of colder fluid somewhere. Like from a slush geyser or a cold biom. Just make a closed pipe or vent loop in the cold fluid, feed it with a bridge, empty it with a liquid or gas shutoff coupled with a pipe or vent temperature sensor and you are good to go for 10 watts. Control the heat transfer with the materials you are using for the closed loop. Insert a bridge in the closed loop right after the shutoff, otherwise your fluid/gas will be confused where to go and get stuck. Melt your cold biom that way and get a cozy base, will last for quite a while.

Thanks to everyone.  And Stoned... below is a trivial setup that you inspired, thank you, thank you, thank you!   This a perfect "cooling start" for my current and future maps.

Handles a full 1000 g/s O2 pipe even if it was not as accurate as I hope for (I would love to output exactly 22C).  But at just 20W of power... I can live with the inaccuracy, especially since a SPOM can easily sustain that with its extra power capacity.

- I tried it first with a simple Oxygen diffuser setup:  A tiny room with 3 Oxygen Diffusers and 2 gas pumps.  (full 1000 g/s O2 pipe)

- I then did it with a standard 2 electrolyzer, 1 hydrogen pump, 2 oxygen pumps SPOM.  I fed it water at around 22-25C. (full 1000 g/s O2 pipe)

In both cases the O2 was around 23C by the time it passed the 1st sensor and around 16-17C by the second one.  I had to remove some wheezeworts to try to make it more temperature precise, as they cooled the hydrogen down to 16C and that was cooling the O2 too fast (my goal is 20-22C).  I did not wait, but I could probably reduce it to 2 wheezeworts.

Since it was so ridiculously effective, my plan for tomorrow is to test it by feeding it water straight from a cool steam vent (about 60C).

 

BTW, one very nice side-effect is that the trivial design can be built very early with Oxygen Diffusers so that you can quickly remove the initial diffuser to this setup outside the base and avoid pointlessly heating it (just need to hike to a the nearest cold biome)  and once you get a Rock Granulator and access Gold Amalgam you can switch the O2 generation to a SPOM.  If you notice the pipes on the left, the pipe from the top was the O2 input from the electrolyzers and the bottom is the one from the SPOM.

cooling.jpg

cooling-gas.jpg

cooling-power.jpg

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4 hours ago, zOldBulldog said:

Handles a full 1000 g/s O2 pipe even if it was not as accurate as I hope for (I would love to output exactly 22C).

 

Again, the trick to making it more accurate is adding a gas reservoir. You will be adding overcooled gas (20C, 10C or -30C, doesn't really matter) to the reservoir and it will act as a buffer - not cooling down as much due to a large mass of gas inside of it. Then when the temperature in it is at your desired range - reroute it from cooling loop to your base. It will make your build twice as big, of course, as well as reduce the throughput a little bit.

 

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My door controlled AETN works pretty well:

Spoiler

Cooling1.thumb.jpg.de91608dd44f6c6beef3a872dd80a0c8.jpgCooling2.thumb.jpg.2d5b4c4e586cece297119a76064c88a6.jpg

Open the door when the gas is cold enough so the AETN stops working

Accuracy isn't really important just for base temperature control. For 20-25° base temperature you can pump in 0° oxygen or lower. And it depends on how much heat you generate in the base.

And it's all powered by the hydrogen from the electrolyzer with some hydrogen left over because not everything in the circuit is running all the time. In fact at times I've had issues consuming all the hydrogen

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Isn't really low power, but Brothgar did a video a while back where he used arbor trees to generate cool oxygen.  I believe it's an entirely closed system though, so no outside power is needed.  Best part is it's all aluminum ore so you don't need crazy materials to make it so it can be set up fairly early into the game once you research the needed items.

 

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OK, you're wanting early game cooling.  I started off on Rime, so I had to warm stuff up to get started, but I made use of loops that just flowed in a circle.  Granite pipes work best until you can get radiant.

Here's an example:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.9077949a71e346917f35f2238d04cb3f.png

image.thumb.png.4562571abe9fdfef9744b4f8076289e1.png

 

Initially, this warmed up the area to about 10c so that the bristleblooms would grow.  Now it keeps the farm from warming above 20c.  The bristlebloom were initially in planter boxes with a sandstone floor under the path of the pipe.  As I gained in research, I first added the insulation, then switched to hydroponic farms, added granite tempshift plates behind the lights, and finally added the radiant pipe cooling pool on the far left. 

Spoiler

image.png.1e9a3e459ce429b1d9bb752b4b7eafe4.png

The cooling tank was filled with just-melted polluted water.  Its now up to an average of about 6c, so I'll eventually have to cool the pool.  I'm nearly at cycle 300, so this setup has worked quite well for a very long time despite that my clean water source is a steam vent.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.c5b9ce467a54292d30bd3e4db2918446.png

Until recently, the "highest" tech of the entire build was gold amalgum pumps.

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