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I'm worried about Klei


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Alternatively you can go to the steam dst forums: https://steamcommunity.com/app/322330/discussions/0/2944710017703584609/

Even though I haven't played Warly yet, I'm still concerned about where the game has been heading recently.

First we get Wortox, who can heal a ridiculous amount to multiple people at once and teleport at almost no cost (low risk (literally he just farms souls from freaking butterflies), high reward).

Then we get Warly who can buff the team an un-godly amount with his foods and may completely break how the game works. 

One recipe in particular that causes me concern is:
"Nightmare Pie" swaps your health and sanity. You can clearly see how this is beyond broken. Use it with a bee queen crown as Wolfgang and turn into a never-dying killing machine. Oh and did I mention chilli flakes also increases damage dealt by an additional 20%? WOLFGANG DOES NOT NEED MORE BUFFS, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Also garlic powder reduces all damage taken by 33%.. so yeah.. 
There are more foods he can make that are strong as well but I cba, you get my point.

This isn't just about one character being too strong (even though I think there are 4-5 characters that are way too strong). I see one of two things happening here: 1. The game becomes too hard without Warly and very frustrating. 2. The game becomes too easy with Warly and very boring

At the moment I don't think this is a huge issue but I fear that Klei is forgetting what DS is supposed to be about.

What happened to survival games actually being a challenge and requiring some sort of teamwork and not "here, eat this and terminate everything"??

 

 

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18 hours ago, Boomsl0l said:

What happened to survival games actually being a challenge and requiring some sort of teamwork and not "here, eat this and terminate everything"?

I for one will only address the quote above: in past that teamwork amounted to advanced players picking Wofgangs and Wigfrids and going as a team of 4-5 such characters absolutely destroying anything in tens of seconds. Not even requiring much armor or healing, the sheer dmg output of 2 (Mighty) Wolfs and 2 Wigs obliterated foes in lol-ovations. Yet that was for advanced players playing as a team. Because bulk of players never reach end-game content, don't fight bosses, usually go casually at first autumn and die from starvation or turtle in base with menial tasks. The new character updates while being on the strong side (getting characters up towards the Holy-DST-Trinity levels or at least something around that) are aimed to promote Co-Op and to be a bit more accessible to the bulk of players.. or at least that's how I see it.

Also we haven't yet seen the new content boss-wise: maybe those new bosses require every bit of OP teamwork to be taken down, maybe old bosses will also be buffed (look at Bearger a bit). But in the end veteran advanced players will always master the game no matter on what highs it may be taken on, you will reach a plateau sooner or later. For now let's see what happens.

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I think that it would be better to tweak those characters rather than nerf other potentially good chars. 

If other formidable singleplayer characters got really nerfed out, i believe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to slightly nerf Wolfgang, Winterbottom, wx and maybe Wigfrid a little bit. Not as extremely, mind you, but a little bit nonetheless. 

I agree some of the reworked characters should be revised,  like dst Willow and her Bernie, He should be weaker

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I feel like a general difficulty revamp should be considered. Yeah, it will shoo away some new players, but with new characters, it's so easy to just absentmindedly wander and still get by, with the exception of Warly but he's a special case.

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only warly should be able to eat this food which gives this high amount of perks. for evry other char it should be nefed. like for example his food which gives more damage should give all other chars only 50% of the perk and for wolfgang for example it shoudnt work or not when hes mighty or dunno maybe just 10% for wolfgang. just some balance. this way warly would be still usefull but not just getting 1 warly and 2-3 wolfgang and kill evry boss in very less mins

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While I can understand your issues, I feel it isn't a problem. 

Wortox is a very powerful character in the right hands but he isn't able to simply solo content as one might expect.  Soul management is very important to keep him alive.  You have to keep track this if you want to keep him from going insane.   And simply eating souls, instead of the weaker food, will result in him going insane.  While there are players who do enjoy the challenge of shadow creatures, nobody wants to deal with them when fighting a giant or a horde of monsters.

Wartly is a totally different problem. While there is many things that can be exploited about this character, the biggest issue is with his setup cost.  And no I don't mean simply building his food stations.  Wartly requires a horde of fresh ingredients to get anywhere.  And not simply the usual meat items that most players use.  So either you need many farms set up or a Wormwood for replanting.  But remember that Wormwood's plants can rot easily.  So that puts pressure to get it stored.  As well as the fact that each of these new recipes require large numbers of fruit and veggies.

Lastly there is Wormwood.  While his abilities to create food is on par with Wickerbottom, he has problems with healing. 

Each character has their strengths which complement each other, and alone each has different problems that need to be overcome.   

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1 hour ago, Canis said:

I feel like a general difficulty revamp should be considered. Yeah, it will shoo away some new players, but with new characters, it's so easy to just absentmindedly wander and still get by, with the exception of Warly but he's a special case.

OR something like an "expert mode" like in terraria and such other games.

This way new players can play the current game and bored expert players can get a challenge.

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20 hours ago, Boomsl0l said:

"Nightmare Pie" swaps your health and sanity. You can clearly see how this is beyond broken. Use it with a bee queen crown as Wolfgang and turn into a never-dying killing machine. Oh and did I mention chilli flakes also increases damage dealt by an additional 20%? WOLFGANG DOES NOT NEED MORE BUFFS, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
...
What happened to survival games actually being a challenge and requiring some sort of teamwork and not "here, eat this and terminate everything"??

The problem with this is that, as frequently happens with forum threads like this, you are not considering the effort that goes into obtaining these items. Warly does not generate chili flakes and "nightmare pies" out of thin air, and Wolfgang does not spawn in with a bee queen crown.

To get the scenario you are describing, the people playing this hypothetical world will first have to gamble with seeds until they get a pepper, onion, and potato (if one player is Warly, they will spawn with two potatoes and an onion, but these will likely spoil before you've got a bird cage and caught a bird). They will then have to feed each of these crops to a bird, and hope RNG gives them multiple seeds in return (and trust me, it's gonna take a while to get from 1 of each crop to an actually usable amount of them). They then have to grow those seeds multiple times to get enough of these crops to do anything with, which will require either large amounts of time or large amounts of fertilizer.

Something I should note is that, before planting any seeds in the first place, these hypothetical players do have the choice between Wormwood's seed planting, and regular farms. If they choose Wormwood, then the crops will begin rotting as soon as they grow. If instead they choose farm plots, then a large amount of resources will need to be used to build said farm plots.

Another thing that should be noted is that it is very very unlikely that anyone will start this process on day 1 and continue uninterrupted! They'll have to worry about basic survival, having a steady food source in this process (and if they choose farms as said food source, it'll make the production of their Overpowered Crops slower), and finding something to do during winter whenever crops are unable to grow!

Anyways, let's assume it's been long enough that these hypothetical players have got a giant farm of peppers, onions, and potatoes. Now it's time to kill the bee queen! They'll have to prepare all the armor and healing items required for that. And remember, they don't have a bee queen crown yet, so the grim galette is basically useless here.

But after killing the bee queen (one of the most annoying bosses in the whole game), they've finally got access to the most powerful combination of items in the game... assuming one of them is Warly. Otherwise, they'll either need to get another player into their world, or set up the celestial portal for switching to Warly.

Anyway, let's assume they've got a Warly now in some way. Finally, likely over a year into their save file, they've got access to the most powerful combination of items in the game! So, what now? Well, I guess they can use it to fight other bosses (which could also be defeated with significantly less effort by simply cooking some pierogies for healing), or maybe fight non-boss mobs which are already incredibly easy to kill without any sort of damage modifiers. Which, uh, that's cool, I guess.

 

The combination you listed would totally be overpowered, if it could be easily achieved during the early game. When you look at it in the context of an actual world, though, that is not at all possible. I don't mean to be rude, but I'd bet that you have not done this in a legitimate world, considering that not only did you call it "Nightmare Pie" (it's referred to as Grim Galette in-game, which you would know if you cooked it once), but you also didn't mention Volt Goat Chaud-Froid, which adds a large amount of electrical damage to all attacks.

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I would have to agree with you about Warly's new stuff. The Fuelweaver is a non-challenge for people who just get the crown (which many already do) and pie (yes, I know what its called, but I'm not going to bother to remember it. Besides that's a terrible point to defuse an argument).

Also Wigfrid can take uh.... 8 damage from some bosses.

The thing is, the game might be about to get really hard. But for the time being, this is just BROKEN. Yes, seed RNG is a factor, but it's not a big one. They can just spent a season (eg, summer) farming.

Spoiler

Also Maxwell has been driven into the ground recently, with enlightenment and his minions not getting the food buffs he's just a worse Woodie.

This is horrible

 

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Winona's cheesepults is where it began. Then came Wortox and it was like a bad joke. Endless teleporting, endless aoe healing, etc.

Now there's Warly and his meals which give a variety of core game mechanic breaking buffs. Don't need to cool down, don't need to stay warm, don't need to stay dry, don't need a light source, deal tons more damage, take less damage.

All there is left to do is sit back and laugh at how stupidly easy things will get with each passing update.

 

At the end of these completely disproportional character rebuffs and the overall removal of any effort needed to survive, there better be a new, fourth game mode waiting for players who expect at least a modicum of challenge in Don't Starve Together. Something, anything, that will give a reason to keep playing a game downgraded to a kindergärtner's level.

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Reading some of the comments I get the feeling people use a lot "c_spawn" to test and make conclusions based on such course of actions. Otherwise read again pls SunsetSkye's post. 100 darts and 60x garlic for example don't pop out of the thin air. As a matter of fact in my solo Warly world almost an entire year passed before I got my first Pepper from Advanced Farms ("thanks" RNGeezas!) - and I spent all spring only on crops (passive growth mostly)-and-bird feeding.

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Have you ever tried bringing a casual player to the game? Usually they die to darkness or spiders then just leave and go play something else thinking the game is too difficult. Have you seen gameplay from people that haven't played this game as much as you? Using stumpt as an example, they are using the fire respawn mod and still struggling to kill Klaus. The game might not be too hard for people that spend time and effort learning it but that's not the majority. The majority usually perceive the game as too hard and gives up. If making the game easier is necessary to allow the majority of players to get into the part where they can enjoy more of the content the game has to offer, I perceive it as a necessary sacrifice. Don't forget that you can always make the game harder for yourself.

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The problem for the current fan base/vet players:

Progression difficulty has stopped.

Each boss you kill makes the game easier and easier.

Everytime you get a new item the games get easier leading to Fuelweaver.

Once you have bone armor it gets even easier and thats the end.

There is nothing else for progression, they are adding items that makes it easier for the new player/single player.

There is no content that 100& requires those items/buffs/etc 

Lack of progression/challenge is the problem

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Spoiler
20 minutes ago, Pruinae said:

Have you ever tried bringing a casual player to the game? Usually they die to darkness or spiders then just leave and go play something else thinking the game is too difficult. Have you seen gameplay from people that haven't played this game as much as you? Using stumpt as an example, they are using the fire respawn mod and still struggling to kill Klaus. The game might not be too hard for people that spend time and effort learning it but that's not the majority. The majority usually perceive the game as too hard and gives up. If making the game easier is necessary to allow the majority of players to get into the part where they can enjoy more of the content the game has to offer, I perceive it as a necessary sacrifice. Don't forget that you can always make the game harder for yourself.

But isn't that the appeal of DS? It's branded as a "uncompromising wilderness survival game of science and magic" for a reason.

The difficulty of DS was lightening in a bottle. It was a addictive play loop of spawn, learn, die, learn from your mistakes, repeat, until you could eventually survive indefinitely. You will die. And you will get pissed, you will find the game to difficult and give up for a while.

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26 minutes ago, Raspberry Shake said:
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But isn't that the appeal of DS? It's branded as a "uncompromising wilderness survival game of science and magic" for a reason.

The difficulty of DS was lightening in a bottle. It was a addictive play loop of spawn, learn, die, learn from your mistakes, repeat, until you could eventually survive indefinitely. You will die. And you will get pissed, you will find the game to difficult and give up for a while.

Yes, and I love that.

The point I was trying to get across is that even though I might like it, not everyone does. Klei may be trying to make the game easier to draw in more players. Guess we'll have to wait and see. I trust Klei.

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I’m going to wind the clock back to 2012 and bring up birdcage OP argument. Since people thought it wold kill the game and how it functions (“this was suppose to be an uncompromising…..). Over the years other similar arguments have been made about other things, but the birdcage argument went on for years. Now the argument about power creep with Warly, and how it makes the game easier is the same argument from back then. Also back then people hated the original Krampus difficultly curve so they nerfed him the next day.

(December 12, 2012 hotfix) The day after Krampus was introduced in the “Naughty or Nice Update.”

  • Krampus comes a little less frequently, and in smaller numbers.

  • Krampus will start to forgive naughtiness if you aren't naughty for a while. So you can still kill lots of bunnies with impunity if you pace yourself and diversify your food sources.

  • Krampus will target loose items on the ground before going after chests.

  • Krampus runs a little slower.

I prefer the original premise that is why I sometimes still use Krampusnacht mod that Bryce originally came up with.

Somethings never really change.

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Well I don't know. Of course Warly and some characters are obviously stronger that what we have now with some others...

But this only depend of what kind of player you are, and trust me, open your game, go in Browse Games, inspect servers and look which characters you will see the most (Spoiler : Wilson, Wendy  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Wigfrid pretty often too)

The game have beginners and pro-players, I played Don't Starve for more than 5000 hours so I don't have any reasons to take a low tier character cause I know how to deal with their cons, a new player will have low chances to survive by playing Wortox actually for exemple, it's a character that requise a lot of sanity management on multiplayer cause eating food is prioritised for other survivors, so you have to consume your souls which have some consequences on your schedule when you didn't planned to collect souls for healing and teleportation.

And this exemple I given works for most of the others, it's just that for all the time you played Don't Starve, you mastered it, and now almost nothing can stop you. It's normal this way, making the game more hard will not change anything for you but kicking new players in the face.

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On 26.07.2019 at 7:49 AM, Boomsl0l said:

Alternatively you can go to the steam dst forums: https://steamcommunity.com/app/322330/discussions/0/2944710017703584609/

Even though I haven't played Warly yet, I'm still concerned about where the game has been heading recently.

First we get Wortox, who can heal a ridiculous amount to multiple people at once and teleport at almost no cost (low risk (literally he just farms souls from freaking butterflies), high reward).

Then we get Warly who can buff the team an un-godly amount with his foods and may completely break how the game works. 

One recipe in particular that causes me concern is:
"Nightmare Pie" swaps your health and sanity. You can clearly see how this is beyond broken. Use it with a bee queen crown as Wolfgang and turn into a never-dying killing machine. Oh and did I mention chilli flakes also increases damage dealt by an additional 20%? WOLFGANG DOES NOT NEED MORE BUFFS, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Also garlic powder reduces all damage taken by 33%.. so yeah.. 
There are more foods he can make that are strong as well but I cba, you get my point.

This isn't just about one character being too strong (even though I think there are 4-5 characters that are way too strong). I see one of two things happening here: 1. The game becomes too hard without Warly and very frustrating. 2. The game becomes too easy with Warly and very boring

At the moment I don't think this is a huge issue but I fear that Klei is forgetting what DS is supposed to be about.

What happened to survival games actually being a challenge and requiring some sort of teamwork and not "here, eat this and terminate everything"??

 

 

Now Klei is engaged in rebalancing characters (balance has always been a weak point for Klei), advertising the game and attracting newbies. It makes sense. Let's hope that after rebalancing the characters, when the newbies get comfortable with the game, Klei will start to invent difficulties in the game worthy of the updated (reinforced) characters. Even just a hard mod for experienced players would be appropriate.

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I'm fairly certain Klei is setting up for something larger. Players have been complaining that they want more difficulty in the game for a long time, despite its already very steep learning curve. The Return of Them seems to be promising a variety of new challenges, and I assume much tougher opponents and more dangerous situations. I don't think Klei would add this useful of items into the game, if they didn't have something like that in mind. I guess for that we'll just have to wait and see.

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We dont need a hard mode of old content. Or revamped old content.

The experienced players and vets need the next step. How long have we killed the same bosses on repeat over and over again.

 Id like to see some type of event that leads to us leaving the world to a new harsher experience where the new buffs are needed.  

Maybe some way to convert the world. 

Hell you could make the caves the in between or you can only travel there while the fuelweaver is dead

1 minute ago, Catteflyterpill said:

I'm fairly certain Klei is setting up for something larger. Players have been complaining that they want more difficulty in the game for a long time, despite its already very steep learning curve. The Return of Them seems to be promising a variety of new challenges, and I assume much tougher opponents and more dangerous situations. I don't think Klei would add this useful of items into the game, if they didn't have something like that in mind. I guess for that we'll just have to wait and see.

The game is old and losing players. 

Allot of people came back for the return of them and left seeing the lack of content and amount of broken things.  

Yes its a small company but how long do toy want people to wait for 1 boss? A year?

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4 minutes ago, Faultz said:

We dont need a hard mode of old content. Or revamped old content.

The experienced players and vets need the next step. How long have we killed the same bosses on repeat over and over again.

 Id like to see some type of event that leads to us leaving the world to a new harsher experience where the new buffs are needed.  

Maybe some way to convert the world. 

Hell you could make the caves the in between or you can only travel there while the fuelweaver is dead

The game is old and losing players. 

Allot of people came back for the return of them and left seeing the lack of content and amount of broken things.  

Yes its a small company but how long do toy want people to wait for 1 boss? A year?

Not to be rude, but where are you getting your numbers from? I don't feel like that's really the case. Game development is a long process, ask anybody. Game companies are constantly doing crunch time and overworking trying to produce content. A boss isn't made in a day, a lot of moving parts have to fit together to make something that is challenging, working, and fits into the game thematically and gameplay-wise. The amount of updates pushing out shows how much Klei has been responding to player demands.

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Just follow charts. Anytime there is a big update or free weekend dst gets a spike but then fades. 

You can see in communities also of people coming and going revolving around patches the die hard fans will stay thats the case for any game. I feel like they need something to keep people there instead of play a month get the next batch in.

 

And yes its not released.  Infact it was supposed to be released  by now but its so messed up. Have you followed the past few patches and slew of bugs? What exactly has changed since the delay in terms of overall content or mechanics ?

 

I feel like they are struggling with things. Yes i know small company blah blah.

 

Trust me i have thousands of hrs in both games i want to see them succeed. But i feel like something needs too change on the way its going

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