I'm worried about Klei

[Crimson Chin]

3 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

It's really not that OP. Aside from the extremely specific situation of using Volt Jelly in Spring with a spiced up Wolfgang, there's nothing that major here. 

If you think something makes the survival experience too easy then don't use it. How does what someone else is doing in their world affect you? 

Well again, I think the lack of progression and difficulty as Sketched said goes much farther back then Warly's release. I was just saying it adds on to it. I suppose you are right, it is player's choice, but the game still does lack progression... The game loses that feeling of any risk/challenge at all extremely early on. Like he said you could get dark sword and high tiered magic gear on day 5. I know that might not be entirely true for newer players, but learning is really all that is required to be able to survive, so they are also able to get to this state eventually. And as @mr._.tete was saying caves certainly are harder than the overworld, but can still be conquered with little to no risk very early on. Just find a blue mushroom forest and you are set really.

With Warly's case I don't think farming takes as long as it might seem. Horrible RNG does happen yeah, but all you need is a few peppers and a bird cage. Wickerbottom and Wormwood make this process way easier. I don't think a Wolfgang using Volt Jelly is that much of an extremely specific situation, as Wolfgang is played often and like I said when you do get the farming going its pretty easy. Combat is supposed to be a pretty massive part of the game, and is made a breeze with this.

Not to mention the good ol' old celestial portal is back at it again making some characters feel even more underwhelming. I could... stay Warly and deal with his downsides....... or I could just bundle my food up and switch to wolfgang. Again you are right, it is player's choice, but is a character really all that interesting/rewarding to play if they are better off swapped for another character? Willow and Winona's reworks have been disappointing and the celestial portal just makes them feel even lesser.

I'm hoping the character reworks for the high tier characters like Wicker and Wolf add ACTUAL downsides, and not just a 10x sanity drain or something nonexistent, something that changes the way you play. I think Wormwood is a good example of a well balanced character, all he needs is his manure healing buffed a bit, then I'd say he might even be perfect. He offers unique and interesting perks that are certainly worth his killer downside, but doesn't just decimate everything within seconds. His downside is also a great example of a REAL downside. 

I am really hoping that people are right, and the recent characters have been so powerful because RoT is going to be offering a lot of challenge. Wortox full healing his entire team with like 5 butterflies and Warly allowing Wolfgang to dish out some insane damage has just been a little worrying is all. Again, DST is meant to be played endlessly, but can practically be completed within days. I am hoping RoT helps fix this.

[NSAiswatchingus]

2 hours ago, Crimson Chin said:

Again, DST is meant to be played endlessly, but can practically be completed within days. I am hoping RoT helps fix this.

There's no fixing that. Someone will always figure out how to beat a game way faster than originally intended. There's no point in trying to slow down the speed runners. 

The progression you're looking for is already done until new content gets added. Figuring out how to survive and beat the Ancient Fuelweaver is the game. It's technically doable in just days, but by someone that already knows the game back to front. Someone playing for the first time is in for easily 100 hours of entertainment to "beat" the game, and that's a respectable amount of time for a little indie survival game. 

[GrandTardigrade]

I can agree with this, but I'm not worried about the "game is getting too easy" thing. New gamers can experience in this gamemode, and there are tons and tons of challenges for veterans. Play as weak characters, set the world to harder, try a challenge mod, play with a special criteria... So I think it isn't a problem.

[mr._.tete]

4 hours ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

It's really not that OP. Aside from the extremely specific situation of using Volt Jelly in Spring with a spiced up Wolfgang, there's nothing that major here. 

If you think something makes the survival experience too easy then don't use it. How does what someone else is doing in their world affect you?

That the same thing as saying don't play the game which is stupid. Why do you think people are so hesistant to change any setting on the world generation setting, why do you think some people are so hesistant to exploit bugs to beat bosses, why do you think people who will never use Warly still complain about it, why do you think people are so hesitant to use OP characters?

Simple. Because people like to improve and make the game easier, not have it be easier through buffs and OP characters.  The addition of a new character isn't simply a new character addition. The addition of a new character changes the mechanics of a game for people (especially those who play online with friends or random) to a huge degree. Because people like to experiment and experience new team formation or just try out different characters while playing with other people, the existence of a OP character harms that experience.

I play solo like 80% of the time (because Klei servers sucks), but seeing as how this is impact the multiplayer aspect of the game for a sheet ton of people that I'm only complaining about this particular character.

Anyway, I'm 90% sure he's gonna get nerfed so...

Enjoy it while you can. 

4 hours ago, Crimson Chin said:

With Warly's case I don't think farming takes as long as it might seem. Horrible RNG does happen yeah, but all you need is a few peppers and a bird cage. Wickerbottom and Wormwood make this process way easier. I don't think a Wolfgang using Volt Jelly is that much of an extremely specific situation, as Wolfgang is played often and like I said when you do get the farming going its pretty easy. Combat is supposed to be a pretty massive part of the game, and is made a breeze with this.

Not to mention the good ol' old celestial portal is back at it again making some characters feel even more underwhelming. I could... stay Warly and deal with his downsides....... or I could just bundle my food up and switch to wolfgang. Again you are right, it is player's choice, but is a character really all that interesting/rewarding to play if they are better off swapped for another character? Willow and Winona's reworks have been disappointing and the celestial portal just makes them feel even lesser.

This is exactly what I was saying, it makes the game very underwhelming. And at that, makes old characters even more unattractive then they already are.

I'm hoping the character reworks for the high tier characters like Wicker and Wolf add ACTUAL downsides, and not just a 10x sanity drain or something nonexistent, something that changes the way you play. I think Wormwood is a good example of a well balanced character, all he needs is his manure healing buffed a bit, then I'd say he might even be perfect. He offers unique and interesting perks that are certainly worth his killer downside, but doesn't just decimate everything within seconds. His downside is also a great example of a REAL downside. 

I agree. Some character downside like Wig, Wolf and Wick aren't that much of a deal to pose any real issue. I play Wig and honestly, I don't mind her being nerfed, she either needs a nerf or a rework.

 

[AdventZen]

1 hour ago, mr._.tete said:

That the same thing as saying don't play the game which is stupid. Why do you think people are so hesistant to change any setting on the world generation setting, why do you think some people are so hesistant to exploit bugs to beat bosses, why do you think people who will never use Warly still complain about it, why do you think people are so hesitant to use OP characters?

Simple. Because the addition of a new character isn't simply a new character addition. The addition of a new character changes the mechanics of a game for people (especially those who play online with friends or random) to a huge degree. Because people like to experiment and experience new team formation or just try out different characters while playing with other people, the existence of a OP character harms that experience.

I play solo like 80% of the time (because Klei servers sucks), but seeing as how this is impact the multiplayer aspect of the game for a sheet ton of people that I'm only complaining about this particular character.

Anyway, I'm 90% sure he's gonna get nerfed so I guess there really isn't any use talking about it further.

Enjoy it while you can. 

If you'd rather have a completely useless and tame character than an actually interesting, but game-changing one, then what's the point of adding a character in general?
Have you seen how troublesome it is sit down and play a full year as him?

Wolfgang having a speed boost, double damage and increased health while Mighty is OP.
Wickerbottom making infinite food, setting up Boss-killing fields, overcharging WX and having a renewable Pan Flute is OP.
WX being 50% faster and immune to freezing/darkness with just a Telelocator Staff, as well as reaching 400HP and recovering all stats with Gears is OP.
No one is hesitant to play any of these characters. It's all because Warly is new.

Warly being physically unable to eat the most cost-effective sanity and healing foods (mushrooms) in the game is not OP. His spices are surely useful, and reach pretty numbers if the stars align, but actually playing Warly is not fun. He is a wildcard Generalist, sure, but he isn't easy. Most of his usefulness boils down to farmplots, meaning that you'll most likely only experience any positive changes in Spring, unless you rush farms in Autumn (if you go that way, good luck with the 2 days of fun before Winter). He is a high-cost, time-consuming investment, and time is a pretty big factor in Don't Starve, especially when you also have to juggle seasonal changes, hound attacks, general base growth and the constant need for different food. 

Sure, people can just basebuild as an easier character then stockpile the spices, but it'll still be more than half a year before you have any meaningful surplus of Pepper/Garlic seeds, if any.

His """OP""" recipe depends on Volt Goats and Peppers. Volt Goat Horns have a 25% drop-rate, meaning for every herd you slaughter, you'll get 2 at most, then wait ~7 days for the Goats to respawn, to gamble for another Horn. Meanwhile, you also have to gamble for the Peppers, which have the same droprate as a Dragonfruit, good luck with that too. Finished? Good, now just wait until Spring for any possible use. 

It takes way too much effort and planning to get anything OP out of Warly himself, therefore nerfing his recipes and spices would only assure he's never going to be actually mained. 

[Crimson Chin]

1 hour ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

There's no fixing that. Someone will always figure out how to beat a game way faster than originally intended. There's no point in trying to slow down the speed runners. 

The progression you're looking for is already done until new content gets added. Figuring out how to survive and beat the Ancient Fuelweaver is the game. It's technically doable in just days, but by someone that already knows the game back to front. Someone playing for the first time is in for easily 100 hours of entertainment to "beat" the game, and that's a respectable amount of time for a little indie survival game. 

But what is the intended way to progress through this game? Like I said it is pretty easy getting should be late game gear on like day 5. I understand all games have endings, and that some people are able to get to them faster than others, but once again DST is a game meant to be played endlessly, not just 100 hours. It seemingly lacks an end game/ any progression at all. I hope RoT also adds to the game there, and changes progression, making it more difficult and having more points in progression... Like I said right now there just isn't anything, there is no risk in doing almost anything at all once you get a football helmet. There is no difficulty curve, it just flat lines after like 5 days. And like Sketched was saying a lot of these progression points in game already, like the bosses, are ruined by exploits,and are rather uncreative health sponges to begin with. Some bosses need entire reworks in my opinion, like toadstool. Another issue entirely is the loot from these progression points. Yes I have finally ctrl fed the big 5 million hp frog to death, now : Lamp. Your reward for killing a near end game boss is a lamp that requires fuel constantly to help you.... deal with darkness, which should already be a nonexistent threat to players that manage to take out toadstool!? All the while you can instead  just find some rabbits, go insane, dig some graves, and boom, you now have end game magic gear on day 5. I guess what I'm trying to say with this example is that DST's progression system is so wonky right now, it barely exists. Time consuming tasks like taking down toadstool reward you with almost nothing, while merely going insane and risking nothing at all is much more worth your time. I certainly hope these recently powerful characters aren't there to just band-aid these uncreative/unrewarding bosses by making them even less of a threat then they are right now to try and make their less than stellar rewards seem better.

I know I am asking for a lot when I say I hope Klei expands on and fixes some of the issues with progression in RoT, but it would be very much appreciated. Because hey, isn't the goal to keep players playing and wanting to come back?

21 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

Simple. Because the addition of a new character isn't simply a new character addition. The addition of a new character changes the mechanics of a game for people (especially those who play online with friends or random) to a huge degree. Because people like to experiment and experience new team formation or just try out different characters while playing with other people, the existence of a OP character harms that experience.

You put this very nicely, and I couldn't agree more. While NSA is technically right that it is player choice, this is a multiplayer game and I believe balance is something important and should definitely have more consideration put into it. That's why I find Wortox, and Warly's rework to be unhealthy op. Evening everyone on power levels is something I am 100 percent up for, but the already insanely powerful characters need to be toned down a bit so not everyone is balanced out to be just as op as they are.

2 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

If you'd rather have a completely useless and tame character than an actually interesting, but game-changing one, then clearly you're not very bright.
Have you even played Warly? I mean, really sit down and play a full year as him?

Well that was rude, but no that's not what he's saying. Characters can be interesting and fun to play without being completely stupid broken. That is game balance. A lot of your other points are looking at Warly all by himself. Some of the issues you listed are almost eliminated with a Wormwood and Wickerbottom. Besides, @mr._.tete has already stated that he is talking about what Warly is able to do with team members. This is what he said in a previous post. Its clear that you have no respect for him since you started out your post with a rather uncalled for insult, but I would have thought you would at least take the time to read through his comments before insulting him.

42 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

Anyway the problem with Warly is his Multiplayer aspect. Single/Solo play wise he's not that great.

 

[AdventZen]

4 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

Well that was rude, but no that's not what he's saying. Characters can be interesting and fun to play without being completely stupid broken. That is game balance. A lot of your other points are looking at Warly all by himself. Some of the issues you listed are almost eliminated with a Wormwood and Wickerbottom. Besides, @mr._.tete has already stated that he is talking about what Warly is able to do with team members. This is what he said in a previous post. Its clear that you have no respect for him since you started out your post with a rather uncalled for insult, but I would have thought you would at least take the time to read through his comments before insulting him.

Fair point, Ad hominem is Ad hominem. I do find it hard to empathize with him, mainly for the self-absorbed manner in which he writes, but indeed, me being rude doesn't warrant anything but reciprocity.

Allow me to rephrase and shorten the premise of my argument:
Warly is not fun to play. His spices are fun to play. Nerfing Warly would only guarantee him a Joke character spot, where he is harder to play, and doesn't give any significant reason to play.

Multiplayer is obviously to be taken in consideration when reviewing characters, but aside from Wolfgang's extremely situational 600 Damage, and WickerWood's faster crops, I don't see any synergies or reasons to take into consideration, still, most characters can be OP in a downside-less environment, as I pointed out when mentioning Wolfgang, Wicker and WX, so selectively picking teammates that nullify downsides is obviously going to make him seem OP.

He is not a team. If you balance any character strictly around their best possible matchup, they'll only excel with those matchups. A good character can stand on its own, and go beyond when in a team. Warly can barely stand on his own, and mainly helps his team go beyond. I don't believe he needs to be nerfed, as that would give players no incentive to actually main him.

And yes, I regret rushing my previous post, and being unnecesssarily rude, even if I don't empathize with the poster, I will edit it accordingly.

[mr._.tete]

19 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

Fair point, Ad hominem is Ad hominem. I do find it hard to empathize with him, mainly for the self-absorbed manner in which he writes, but indeed, me being rude doesn't warrant anything but reciprocity.

Allow me to rephrase and shorten the premise of my argument:
Warly is not fun to play. His spices are fun to play. Nerfing Warly would only guarantee him a Joke character spot, where he is harder to play, and doesn't give any significant reason to play.

Multiplayer is obviously to be taken in consideration when reviewing characters, but aside from Wolfgang's extremely situational 600 Damage, and WickerWood's faster crops, I don't see any synergies or reasons to take into consideration, still, most characters can be OP in a downside-less environment, as I pointed out when mentioning Wolfgang, Wicker and WX, so selectively picking teammates that nullify downsides is obviously going to make him seem OP.

He is not a team. If you balance any character strictly around their best possible matchup, they'll only excel with those matchups. A good character can stand on its own, and go beyond when in a team. Warly can barely stand on his own, and mainly helps his team go beyond. I don't believe he needs to be nerfed, as that would give players no incentive to actually main him.

And yes, I regret rushing my previous post, and being unnecesssarily rude, even if I don't empathize with the poster, I will edit it accordingly.

Listen, I don't mean to be rude or anything but all I'm saying is this.

1. Warly is not good as a solo player and we agree on that. But team buff (via food) is ridiculously OP that old characters such as Wilson, Wendy, WX, etc and even relatively new chars like Wigfrid becomes undesirable for a good gameplay (multiplayer wise).

2. When I say his food are OP, although in part I'm referring to that Volt Goat electric DMG buff food, I'm also including the 20% DMG boost and 33% DEF, Health and Sanity swap food, which promotes less diversity in characters. Let's say even if Warly actually promote the use of other weak characters, the problem is that Warly can eliminate all the negative traits of weak characters via providing ATK, DEF boost (which apparently stacks) and Amazing Healing all through food and all by himself. The fact that Bosses has long respawn timer and only a few bosses, you don't even need that much food at all. You only need them periodically for 1 fight and they last for a long time (one for each fight).

In conclusion, I want Warly to be nerfed as he destroys teamwork, because he is able to eliminate the very thing that needs teamwork to begin with via removing any downside that any character has.

[NSAiswatchingus]

28 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

But what is the intended way to progress through this game? Like I said it is pretty easy getting should be late game gear on like day 5.

You die, learn, die, learn, die, learn, until you overcome something, then repeat. You can only get high end gear early if you KNOW how to. That's the progress you're forgetting. The time spent discovering new things and figuring out how they work. 

As far as how to apply that knowledge and destroy the Fuelweaver, it's up to the players to use whatever methods they can imagine. 

39 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

but once again DST is a game meant to be played endlessly, not just 100 hours. It seemingly lacks an end game/ any progression at all.

What do you mean meant to be played endlessly? Once the content has been played the worth of the replayability is completely dependent on the player. If you're playing nothing but DST all day every day then of course you're going to be bored. No video game lasts forever. 

[AdventZen]

2 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

2. When I say his food are OP, although in part I'm referring to that Volt Goat electric DMG buff food, I'm also including the 20% DMG boost and 33% DEF, Health and Sanity swap food, and this promotes less diversity in characters. Let's say even if Warly actually promote the use of other weak characters, the problem is that Warly can eliminate all the negative traits of weak characters via providing ATK, DEF boost (which apparently stacks) and Amazing Healing all through food and all by himself. The fact that Bosses has long respawn timer and only a few bosses, you don't even need that much food at all. You only need them periodically for 1 fight and they last for a long time (one for each fight).

In conclusion, I want Warly to be nerfed as he destroys teamwork, because he is able to eliminate the very thing that needs teamwork to begin with via removing any downside that any character has

Okay, I can kinda see what you're getting at, but let's go by parts:

2. What do you mean by weak characters? as in, base damage? or Wendy/Wes 75%DMG weak?
I don't feel like Warly's combat buff makes them any less viable, as that doesn't affect their other perks (Wendy is admittedly underpowered, and I have to agree that Warly's spices only made her less viable, but most other characters still retain their non-combat specialties, and some like Woodie and Wigfrid even got buffed, while Wormwood received a better niche). Warly's dishes don't exclude any other character, save for Wigfrid's finicky meat-only diet, so I don't believe he makes certain characters less viable. Not all characters revolve around combat, and while yes, Warly does benefit more those that do, it doesn't eliminate the other aspects of gameplay (Basebuilding, Exploration, Resource Management...).

[NSAiswatchingus]

10 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

1. Warly is not good as a solo player and we agree on that. But team buff (via food) is ridiculously OP that old characters such as Wilson, Wendy, WX, etc and even relatively new chars like Wigfrid becomes undesirable for a good gameplay (multiplayer wise).

I've played a year solo with Warly now and he is actually pretty challenging to use, but his unique recipes help juggle the maintenance. His team buffs are no more OP than a field of Bunnymen or Catapults. "Good gameplay" is completely subjective. I'm pretty sure if the game was the way you wanted it to be I wouldn't be interested. 

17 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

In conclusion, I want Warly to be nerfed as he destroys teamwork, because he is able to eliminate the very thing that needs teamwork to begin with via removing any downside that any character has.

You say he's not that good, but want him to be nerfed? How does he destroy team work when he just makes a team better if they work together to give Warly the resources he needs? You've got it all backwards friend.

[Crimson Chin]

25 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

Fair point, Ad hominem is Ad hominem. I do find it hard to empathize with him, mainly for the self-absorbed manner in which he writes, but indeed, me being rude doesn't warrant anything but reciprocity.

Oh, well that was much better, thank you! It is okay, it is pretty easy to get heated up over something you are passionate about. No matter what side you are on I think it is important to remember we are all here because we care about the game that much. It is also important to try your best to keep things polite or discussions can easily spiral from interesting/enjoyable to down right painful/toxic.

31 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

Allow me to rephrase and shorten the premise of my argument:
Warly is not fun to play. His spices are fun to play. Nerfing Warly would only guarantee him a Joke character spot, where he is harder to play, and doesn't give any significant reason to play.

Multiplayer is obviously to be taken in consideration when reviewing characters, but aside from Wolfgang's extremely situational 600 Damage, and WickerWood's faster crops, I don't see any synergies or reasons to take into consideration, still, most characters can be OP in a downside-less environment, as I pointed out when mentioning Wolfgang, Wicker and WX, so selectively picking teammates that nullify downsides is obviously going to make him seem OP.

He is not a team. If you balance any character strictly around their best possible matchup, they'll only excel with those matchups. A good character can stand on its own, and go beyond when in a team. Warly can barely stand on his own, and mainly helps his team go beyond. I don't believe he needs to be nerfed, as that would give players no incentive to actually main him.

And yes, I regret rushing my previous post, and being unnecesssarily rude, even if I don't empathize with the poster, I will edit it accordingly.

I  agree with some of the things you are saying here. Warly is indeed a pain to play by himself and I do believe that is an important issue with his character design! I completely agree characters should not be balanced entirely around working with other team mates, but again this is a multiplayer game and I believe Klei should take these possible synergies into consideration when balancing a character, synergies that end up being too powerful can not only ruin a character's downside, but lead to some game breaking strategies. 

34 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

A good character can stand on its own, and go beyond when in a team.

This is very much so true, but like you said Warly can't stand on his own and can become game breaking when on a team. Enjoyment and balance are two important things when designing a character, and I really think Klei should take some more time to get these things right. I really wish they would come to the community for help more often, I have seen so many great ideas from the forums and other places that just go untouched. I know @Sketched_Philo suggested this quite a while ago, but I believe it still applies here, Klei should release new characters/reworks to the beta branch in early stages to allow for feedback. The current system releases characters faster maybe, but thanks to it many are left unenjoyable to play still. Look at Winona and Willow. Two characters that really only rely on their items... that is not interesting at all. I think we can also apply logic like this to the top tier characters. Look at wickerbottom, sure she is broken and in very much need of some tuning, but she is also boring to play. She has no unique downsides and all she really does is read her books every so often. I love all of the characters design wise and could only dream of the day each of them offers different playstyles that are not only effective, but fun and balanced. It is certainly no easy task, but I know the community and the team at Klei are capable of it.

Anyways,  Ill admit Volt Jelly is not that good on any other characters, but it certainly helps enough to be worthwhile, how about instead of just nerfing Warly's dishes for everyone we do it just for specific characters. Wolfgang obviously does not need this damage boost, I am sure there is some in character way to have him not receive the full effects from it. You see this is what i'm talking about when I say Klei should take character synergies into consideration when balancing them, but not just entirely design a character around a potential team. Another example of this would be Wormwood and Wortox, it is quite literally just infinite living logs. 

[56933043043]

6 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

You die, learn, die, learn, die, learn, until you overcome something, then repeat. You can only get high end gear early if you KNOW how to. That's the progress you're forgetting. The time spent discovering new things and figuring out how they work.

Here's a thing about that learning you mentioned. The first instinct of most people is to get in touch with a community for the game or read the wiki. While the wiki is not a very reliable source in particular for this game, you don't need much time discovering how to actually find the shortcut/exploit to completing these tasks. You could learn how to do most of this just checking the wiki, and due to how simple the game's combat is in execution you don't really need anything but the knowledge.

 

11 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

As far as how to apply that knowledge and destroy the Fuelweaver, it's up to the players to use whatever methods they can imagine.

What do you mean meant to be played endlessly? Once the content has been played the worth of the replayability is completely dependent on the player. If you're playing nothing but DST all day every day then of course you're going to be bored. No video game lasts forever. 

"Whatever methods they can imagine" often will translate to "the exploit that was best explained in a video format that I know about" , at least for this game. It's especially bad since DST seems designed around giving players multiple ways to do things, being a sandbox, but when some choices are so clearly subpar it kills replayability and doesn't matter.

Is tic-tac-toe as replayable as something like Risk of Rain 2? Do you think this is dependent *entirely* on the player? Do you really stand by that line?

It's no question you can't play the same video game forever but some of them give you more to offer or reasons to do things differently. Klei tried to design this game to be open-ended , yet many decisions are absolutely and consistently no-brainers, so you will be crippling yourself when you attempt to replay it . Look at the experience on public servers:

Will you ever make your base anyplace other than pig king or the desert?

Will you ever try to kill a gobbler with red caps instead of just using some berries to lure it out and just kill the heck out of it with a weapon?

Will you seriously ever try to fight the bee queen with tanking and using like 10 bunnymen with bee keeper hats instead of doing the fence AI exploit?

These choices are different, but some of them are not only inefficient, but they aren't engaging nor fun.

I apologize if the examples are dragging out, but whenever someone mentions "no video game lasts forever" when discussing replayability it sounds like a non-argument. As an analogy , all food spoils eventually but honey lasts 40 days while frog legs last like 6. You can argue for why you'd want one over the other when talking about how long they last. Same with games.

(I'm saying DST is frog legs standing in toadstool's sporecloud here)

[YesterdaysMindr]

I, uh.

Wow.

I'm staying far away from whatever this is.

[56933043043]

2 minutes ago, engiSonic said:

I, uh.

Wow.

I'm staying far away from whatever this is.

meaningful content like this post keeps me returning to the klei forums, day after day

[mr._.tete]

37 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

Okay, I can kinda see what you're getting at, but let's go by parts:

2. What do you mean by weak characters? as in, base damage? or Wendy/Wes 75%DMG weak?

I don't feel like Warly's combat buff makes them any less viable, as that doesn't affect their other perks (Wendy is admittedly underpowered, and I have to agree that Warly's spices only made her less viable, but most other characters still retain their non-combat specialties, and some like Woodie and Wigfrid even got buffed, while Wormwood received a better niche). Warly's dishes don't exclude any other character, save for Wigfrid's finicky meat-only diet, so I don't believe he makes certain characters less viable. Not all characters revolve around combat, and while yes, Warly does benefit more those that do, it doesn't eliminate the other aspects of gameplay (Basebuilding, Exploration, Resource Management...).

Well you've probably heard but to anyone who doesn't know DST characters have ladder in terms of usefulness to the team. People is S rank are characters like Wick, Wolfgang and WX, while people on A rank are characters like Wigfrid, and the list goes on. The characters at the bottom are characters like Willow, Wendy, Wes, Wilson, etc who do not provide that much or at all to the team compared to the others because they lack either DMG, HP, Sanity, Utilities, etc. Now with Warly these characters cannnnn become useful by providing them with everything they lack in a fight (DMG, DEF, Sanity Control,etc). But even then they aren't that attractive are they, why pick Wilson when you can have character like Wortox for example.

Warly is complicated, he makes old useless characters more viable which is good, but it shouldn't be at the expense of making everyone else (especially those already at the top) even better.

I don't know about you but, in day 20, 90% of the time I would have already explored 100% of the map and gathered enough resources to last through Spring and sometimes even summer, and I play Wigfrid (with whom building base, farming, etc is actually way restrictive)

30 minutes ago, NSAiswatchingus said:

I've played a year solo with Warly now and he is actually pretty challenging to use, but his unique recipes help juggle the maintenance. His team buffs are no more OP than a field of Bunnymen or Catapults. "Good gameplay" is completely subjective. I'm pretty sure if the game was the way you wanted it to be I wouldn't be interested. 

You say he's not that good, but want him to be nerfed? How does he destroy team work when he just makes a team better if they work together to give Warly the resources he needs? You've got it all backwards friend

Allow me to explain and hopefully I'll be able to clarify some things (English isn't something I'm too good at, so forgive me)

When I say destroy teamwork, I mean destroying the very essence of teamwork in my opinion. Where character having different utilities, abilities, weaknesses work together to complement each other strength and eliminate some (not all) weaknesses in the process of say fighting a boss (Toadstool for example) where teamwork is cruciel (unless you're use some 'easy way' tactic of course).

So now you've probably understand fully what I'm saying.

Who needs Wortox when you Warly with his awesome healing food, who needs a tank when Warly that can give you 33% DEF boost, who needs people like Woodie when Warly can give you 50% faster resource collection buff, you catch my drift.

I don't want a God in the game.

[AdventZen]

2 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

Well you've probably heard but to anyone who doesn't know DST characters have ladder in terms of usefulness to the team. People is S rank are characters like Wick, Wolfgang and WX, while people on A rank are characters like Wigfrid, and the list goes on. The characters at the bottom are characters like Willow, Wendy, Wes, Wilson, etc who do not provide that much or at all to the team compared to the others because they lack either DMG, HP, Sanity, Utilities, etc. Now with Warly these characters cannnnn become useful by providing them with everything they lack in a fight (DMG, DEF, Sanity Control,etc). But even then they aren't that attractive are they, why pick Wilson when you can have character like Wortox for example.

Warly is complicated, he makes old useless characters more viable which is good, but it shouldn't be at the expense of making everyone else (especially those already at the top) even better.

Ooooh, I understand your point, and actually quite agree with most of it, but therein lies the problem: that's not something Warly could change, actually.

Wendy, Wes and Wilson are, indeed, not as interesting or fun to play as Woodie, Wigfrid and Winona, and that is a huge issue with the current meta. Warly does increase the gap between them with his buffs, but that does not change the fundamental problem: These characters are outperformed, and their niches are not strong enough to make them A tier. Changing Warly to accomodate for those characters wouldn't make them more used, it would just make Warly join them. These characters are the ones needing a rework, not Warly.

That being said, I wholeheartedly agree Wolfgang's DPS shouldn't be so bloody high, but that has to do with the way Pepper and Chaud Froid stack with his Mighty form. These characters are all getting reworked soon, so I believe it's best to "measure twice and cut once" instead of preemptively nerfing Warly.

15 minutes ago, mr._.tete said:

I don't know about you but, in day 20, 90% of the time I would have already explored 100% of the map and gathered enough resources to last through Spring and sometimes even summer, and I play Wigfrid (with whom building base, farming, etc is actually way restrictive)

I wouldn't go for that high of stockpiling, but yeah, that's usually the case early on. The main difference between Combat and the other mechanics is that Combat will come for you, while the other 3 are mostly very subjective: people explore differently, build differently and gather differently, but we still fight the same enemies mostly the same way. That makes most Non-combat characters pretty situational, and easily forgotten, unless their perks reach Wolfgang levels in their own way (Maxwell, WX and Wicker are the Wolfgangs of Resource-Gathering, Exploration and Basebuilding, respectively).

[Butt Pillow]

...At the end of the day the entire cast has yet to get their reworks that either buff, or change them depending on their current state. As such, of course you'd end up with situations such as Warly and Wolfgang working together well or anything similar. Which even after they do get all of their reworks, they will have to be balanced further to be balanced around each other in their final states. This is before other non character game mechanics are even factored in.

Preempetively nerfing a single character due to their interactions in an innately imbalanced game due to it's 'incomplete' state of fully done reworks would be a horrendous move. Anything that speeds up the process of 'late' game process is in itself something that should not be frowned upon, nor discouraged. Since as far as I'm concerned, Warly only adds new options in handling already conquered problems that haven't been problems for the longest time now. WX ruins rushing for example?

A early game or new player wouldn't be able to take advantage of Warly's perk's, even if they were aware of them. As these things take time and require both game knowledge and a moderate amount of skill or teamwork to successfully pull off. Not to mention people will always take their games at various levels of speed, sometimes you just wanna laze about with friends in, *sometimes* nonoptimal manners. It is ultimately a game meant to be played with friends or to make friends on, and as such, shouldn't be treated with a harshness that a PVP game should garner. 

PVE games are by nature meant to be less pitch perfect when it to balance towards the tools enemies can be used against. Since you're only fighting computer generated AI and not actual players that would call ******** on said antics. So as far as I'm concerned, if I see a Wolfgang with volt jelly and spice destroying a frog in a cave somewhere i'll just stand and watch while emoting since it's ridiculous on a level that's amusing.

[mr._.tete]

13 minutes ago, AdventZen said:

Ooooh, I understand your point, and actually quite agree with most of it, but therein lies the problem: that's not something Warly could change, actually.

Wendy, Wes and Wilson are, indeed, not as interesting or fun to play as Woodie, Wigfrid and Winona, and that is a huge issue with the current meta. Warly does increase the gap between them with his buffs, but that does not change the fundamental problem: These characters are outperformed, and their niches are not strong enough to make them A tier. Changing Warly to accomodate for those characters wouldn't make them more used, it would just make Warly join them. These characters are the ones needing a rework, not Warly.

That being said, I wholeheartedly agree Wolfgang's DPS shouldn't be so bloody high, but that has to do with the way Pepper and Chaud Froid stack with his Mighty form. These characters are all getting reworked soon, so I believe it's best to "measure twice and cut once" instead of preemptively nerfing Warly.

I wouldn't go for that high of stockpiling, but yeah, that's usually the case early on. The main difference between Combat and the other mechanics is that Combat will come for you, while the other 3 are mostly very subjective: people explore differently, build differently and gather differently, but we still fight the same enemies mostly the same way. That makes most Non-combat characters pretty situational, and easily forgotten, unless their perks reach Wolfgang levels in their own way (Maxwell, WX and Wicker are the Wolfgangs of Resource-Gathering, Exploration and Basebuilding, respectively).

Finally we agree. And I agree with what you just said, that other characters need a rework and this is the reason why I said a Warly rework or nerf is needed because these characters at the lowest tiers aren't getting reworks. Cause as it stands right now, if they buff Warly they just buff the already top tiers.

Glad we reach to an agreement RoFL .. kudos. Thanks for the being civil throughout the whole thing.

[MondayNight]

Thread heated up like a plate in Warly's pot (yep, uninspired pun, heh).

 

There is a big difference as to what forumites/advanced players favor and what bulk of player-base (newbies, casuals, noobs, mid-level ones) go-for in personal servers and pubs alike. For anyone regularly playing public servers that much is pretty clear: you rarely see in mentioned pubs Wolfs, Wicker, or Wortox, even the newly-added Warly a mere 5 days after his release is rare-to-the-sight - most play Wilson, Wendy, Wigfrid, Webber, and Willow. Because bulk of player base can't master "S-tier" characters' cons well. This is just an observation.

 

Regarding Warly's rebalance as a personal thought, and to make him more viable without being "OP", how about these:

1) for Warly himself, get down his "remembers the dishes he ate for up to 2 days" to 1 or 1.5 days so he won't be a pain in the neck to play in early days when variety is hard to obtain in an efficient manner, more-so for bulk of casual players at large (that struggles a lot with him);

2) for his dishes: get Chili Flakes - from 20% to 10% dmg boost, and Garlic Powder - from 33% to 20% dmg resistance (yet the Pepper and Garlic chances to pop from crops should go from 2.6% to 5.3%); also Wolf's stacks with these and Chaud-Froid should be looked upon so it won't interact in present manner with his Mighty form.

(?)

 

Spoiler

On another train of thoughts for people wanting some harder variety into their games till Return of Them is out, here's an interesting-to-test mod selection imo: Hard Mode, Harder mobs & mechanics, Harder biomes & bosses, Endless Bosses, and Cavemen.

But almost anything in the mods above, imo, shouldn't be something forced upon player-base at large. Cheers!

 

[Butt Pillow]

11 minutes ago, x0VERSUS1y said:

There is a big difference as to what forumites/advanced players favor and what bulk of player-base (newbies, casuals, noobs, mid-level ones) go-for in personal servers and pubs alike. For anyone regularly playing public servers that much is pretty clear: you rarely see in mentioned pubs Wolfs, Wicker, or Wortox, even the newly-added Warly a mere 5 days after his release is rare-to-the-sight - most play Wilson, Wendy, Wigfrid, Webber, and Willow. Because bulk of player base can't master "S-tier" characters' cons well. This is just an observation.

 

Just wanted to quote this passage specifically as it highlights the game's 'meta' pretty well, and that is if you join random pubs you're going to get a variety of skill levels or people who want to put in a variety of effort. Largely, this'll be less skilled players than forum goers or people who have 1500 hours in the game. This isn't an insult towards those players, just that people will always play at their own speed and that's fine.

Playing this game with 100% coordination with a group of friends will automatically break it in a lot of ways if you know what you're doing. But at that point, you can already body the game near completely so I do not truly see a problem with Warly's broken buffs. If using Spice and Jelly together with a group of friends makes killing Toad's go from 10 minutes to 5, then it changes nothing since that Toad was destined to die at the end of the day. 

But for pubs? or even low skill players that struggle? They ain't ever gonna see that Toad in the first place a lot of the time. And even if they do end up abusing whatever mechanic involved, they deserve to kill that Toad just as much as a group of people who work together to do it in 10 minutes 'fairly.'

[Faultz]

Warly is a buff for single player as well as multiplayer.

His foods can be bundled and allow u to solo bosses easier on other chars

[WkingDisaster]

the new buffs are preparing players for what are coming... disasters and formidable new bosses

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, WkingDisaster said:

the new buffs are preparing players for what are coming... disasters and formidable new bosses

Say hello to my lil.. Marbitraus!

Hope this thing roams the lands in some season like DF did in single player, or the seas, also going on shore when player is near and wreaks major havoc on the land like a true terror foe (with complex attack patterns in vein of Klaus) late survivor games should have, mhm. Bring the true Lovecraftian horror of Them in.

Likewise, as hounds waves go, we need something like this in late-game - the Haul Hound (or the like):

 

PS: I do wish Turn of Tides Beta's Horror Hounds when going live get another patter of attack, slightly different from normal Hounds to properly differentiate between them.

[AdventZen]

6 hours ago, mr._.tete said:

Finally we agree. And I agree with what you just said, that other characters need a rework and this is the reason why I said a Warly rework or nerf is needed because these characters at the lowest tiers aren't getting reworks. Cause as it stands right now, if they buff Warly they just buff the already top tiers.

Glad we reach to an agreement RoFL .. kudos. Thanks for the being civil throughout the whole thing

This was the most wholesome argument I've ever gotten into, and I'm glad we had it. Warly definitely upped the game for a lot of already broken characters, and while he himself may not be OP, his spices incentivize a more narrow Meta, where characters that don't synergize well with him are left behind. 

Thanks for being polite and open-minded!