Food Rebalance Summary

[Saturnus]

Just now, DarkMaster13 said:

I use thimble reeds to delete my toilet water so I don't have to worry about food poisoning.

Everything made with pincha peppers is either made on the grill or in the oven so all germs on the pepper nuts themselves are automatically deleted. No reason to worry.

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, Nitroturtle said:

While the average range has been tightened, I didn't see any buff to NatGas vents.

I looked at some maps and found them to have a lot more output than before. May be a fluke, of course.

[Promethien]

4 hours ago, chemie said:

bbq...spending peppers for quality 3 food seems bad unless all the other 3 options have changed too?  

Its spending peppers to turn 1600 kcal -1 quality food into 4000 kcal quality 3 food. That is a non-trivial bump.

[DarkMaster13]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

Everything made with pincha peppers is either made on the grill or in the oven so all germs on the pepper nuts themselves are automatically deleted. No reason to worry.

Toilet water is too cold for peppernut.  The point here was to find the simplest solution.  Besides, I don't have much that can actually be combined with peppernut at the moment anyway.  It's a forest start with no ice biomes, so all I have to cook is the occasional bit of meat or tofu..The industrial runoff will be all I need for that.

[asdf11784]

I think the numbers are mostly the same as they were before, but when I looked over it in terms of the amount of resources spent vs. the amount of calories produced (without taking into consideration the quality of food, and assuming you're actually farming the plants not just growing wild plants), it seems as though lettuce and mushrooms are very resource efficient (but take a lot of effort to grow sustainably, plus lettuce has an upper limit to the amount you can grow because you can't convert other resources to chlorine conventionally). Mealwood, sleet wheat and bristle blossoms are pretty balanced compared to each other in terms of resources spent vs. calories gained, and pincha peppernuts are about even with those 3 *if* it's being used for surf'n'turf or frost burgers (if it's just being used for BBQ it's somewhat less resource efficient, and for everything else it's much less efficient).

 

Overall frost burgers are actually surprisingly resource efficient considering the quality of food (provided you have some sort of sustainable source of chlorine/bleach stone, even if it's a chlorine planet - it's worth noting that I did some math and I found that with 1 random chlorine planet I looked at it replenished 11.1kg/cycle and based on the proportions of resources on it I found it could replenish enough bleach stone to sustain a base of ~70 dupes with frost burgers indefinitely) - I think getting frost burgers actually produces more calories in total even disregarding the food quality than using the same amount of dirt/water/meat feeding them meal lice+gristle berries + meat.

 

Nosh beans are still just horrible and have no practical use.

[chemie]

2 hours ago, DarkMaster13 said:

Toilet water is too cold for peppernut.  The point here was to find the simplest solution.  Besides, I don't have much that can actually be combined with peppernut at the moment anyway.  It's a forest start with no ice biomes, so all I have to cook is the occasional bit of meat or tofu..The industrial runoff will be all I need for that.

You need to dump heat into it first.  worst case, cross exchange with geyser water

[DarkMaster13]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

You need to dump heat into it first.  worst case, cross exchange with geyser water

I know.  The point was I wanted the simplest solution.

[nakomaru]

6 hours ago, Promethien said:

Its spending peppers to turn 1600 kcal -1 quality food into 4000 kcal quality 3 food

Away from the game to check, but isn't it 3200 conversion to 4000? 1000g pepper = 800kcal for bbq?

[asdf11784]

4 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Away from the game to check, but isn't it 3200 conversion to 4000? 1000g pepper = 800kcal for bbq?

It is. For what it's worth, you can also get an extra 400kcal if the BBQ is then used in one of the new recipes too.

 

For comparison, pincha peppers produce 4000g using 35*8= 280kg of polluted water (+phosphorite but you can get that for free by feeding balm lilies to dreckos), which is 3200 kcal, or ~11.4 kcal/kg of polluted water. A bristle blossom produces 2000kcal of gristle berry (I'm assuming you're cooking it because why would you ever not cook it) using 120kg of water or ~16.7 kcal/kg of water. If you used the BBQ in one of the new recipes it becomes roughly even in the amount of water consumed if you're comparing it to growing bristle blossoms, so growing pincha peppers is actually pretty reasonably efficient compared to other plants if you're using it for BBQ and then using the BBQ for either surf'n'turf or frost burgers.

[Promethien]

Yah you are right. Its 800 kcal and +4 quality gained from 1/4 of a pepper harvest. Peppers have always been about the morale increase though.Tofu only gains 400 from the pepper and lets not forget the coffee machine. 

[Lilalaunekuh]

If we just talk about required water and asume free phosphorite:

Pincha peppers without fertilizer require   70 kg of polluted water for 1kg spice.

Pincha peppers with      fertilizer require 36,6kg  of polluted water for 1kg spice.

(Asuming 100% uptime for the farmer´s touch buff and that you can spare 2,7kg of dirt for 1kg spice.)

 

=> Surf´n´turf can yield up to 163 kcal/kg of polluted water

Spoiler

I didn´t calculate a kcal ratio for the burger since a simple water ratio wouldn´t do justice to the other requirements involved and would be misleading.

 

On a deeper layer we could talk about how much (polluted) water we could produce with a natural gas generator burning the gas we need for the oven instead.

 

[asdf11784]

27 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

If we just talk about required water and asume free phosphorite:

Pincha peppers without fertilizer require   70 kg of polluted water for 1kg spice.

Pincha peppers with      fertilizer require 36,6kg  of polluted water for 1kg spice.

(Asuming 100% uptime for the farmer´s touch buff and that you can spare 2,7kg of dirt for 1kg spice.)

 

=> Surf´n´turf can yield up to 163 kcal/kg of polluted water

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I didn´t calculate a kcal ratio for the burger since a simple water ratio wouldn´t do justice to the other requirements involved and would be misleading.

 

On a deeper layer we could talk about how much (polluted) water we could produce with a natural gas generator burning the gas we need for the oven instead.

 

That 163kcal/kg of polluted water is not really an accurate statistic for measuring pincha peppers because you would've gotten 4/5 of that even without the pincha peppers just from eating the meat and pacu fillet which obviously don't cost any water at all.

[Saturnus]

We're getting nearer to a state where the choice of food is a personal preference without there being an obviously superior go-to food source which is a good thing. We're not totally there yet, and I especially feel Pacu fillet is a step too high food quality when you remember that you can farm Pacus at no cost what-so-ever, not even dupe time spent, since wild or tame they always drop one egg before dying (unless in an overcrowded enclosure but that's easy to avoid). Fully automated Pacu farms is more or less completely "set up and forget" sources of Pacu meat and egg shells.

Food choice is also becoming a matter of play style which I also like. Unless you want all your dupes to become virtual superdupes with maxed out skills in every category there's no reason, beyond you being a benevolent player, to go for the highest possible food quality if you just have fairly good decor and recreational facilities to make up for the lower morale boost of lower quality food. 

[Enzium]

 

On 17-7-2019 at 2:42 AM, Loscil2 said:

Awesome, does wettuce still uses stone chlorine ? Thats very terrible

 

On 17-7-2019 at 3:32 AM, Red Shark said:

Sure does -- .5kg / cycle

Why is this so terrible? I see a lot of people complaining about it but I can't understand why.
I've never ranched pufts before, so maybe im missing something. 

One Squeaky Puft can supply almost 10 Water Weeds, what's the issue there?
Are the Pufts tedious to ranch maybe?

[PhailRaptor]

20 minutes ago, Enzium said:

Are the Pufts tedious to ranch maybe?

Extremely.

In addition to that, you're not guaranteed a source of Chlorine gas.  If you don't have one, you have a finite amount available on your map for conversion by Squeaky Pufts, which convert at 50% mass.

[Enzium]

4 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Extremely.

What's the issue with them?

[camelot]

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Enzium said:

Why is this so terrible? I see a lot of people complaining about it but I can't understand why.
I've never ranched pufts before, so maybe im missing something. 

One Squeaky Puft can supply almost 10 Water Weeds, what's the issue there?
Are the Pufts tedious to ranch maybe?

WWs require 2 non-renewable resources to grow and the food quality is 0 and the efficiency is low

[Enzium]

For some reason i can't quote you properly.

Salt Water is now a renewable resource with the new guaranteed geyser.

[Grimgaw]

45 minutes ago, Enzium said:

Are the Pufts tedious to ranch maybe?

Not really. Don't listen to loud haters

 

[Enzium]

2 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Not really. Don't listen to loud haters

 

I'll setup a Squeaky Puft ranch later this week and will experience the "hassle" myself

[Lilalaunekuh]

5 hours ago, Enzium said:

Salt Water is now a renewable resource with the new guaranteed geyser.

A salt water geyser is guaranteed for each ocean biome. [POIs or geodes can overwrite the "guaranteed" geyser.]

=> Keep in mind that not every map contains an ocean biome.

[Saturnus]

13 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

=> Keep in mind that not every map contains a ocean biome.

Only Verdante doesn't have an ocean biome (which is kinda odd since you'd expect Arideo, literally the arid planet, to be the one missing it).

[wronny]

34 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Only Verdante doesn't have an ocean biome

Only "The Badlands" doesn't. 

 

40 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

(which is kinda odd since you'd expect Arideo, literally the arid planet, to be the one missing it).

Yep, Arideo currently feels like a misnomer. With 2 Cool Steam Vents + 1 Salt Water Geyser "guaranteed", it has more renewable water than "The Badlands" and Arboria. There's also lots of residual water of all three kinds on arideo, thanks to the presence of Swamp, Tide Pool and (additional) Forest biomes.

[mathmanican]

33 minutes ago, wronny said:

Arideo

And the new forest muckroot allows you to basically ignore farming for quite a long time. I find Arideo easier than every other map because of this. It is very easy to drop the temp of an insulated farm by a few degrees.

[goboking]

9 hours ago, Saturnus said:

I especially feel Pacu fillet is a step too high food quality when you remember that you can farm Pacus at no cost what-so-ever, not even dupe time spent, since wild or tame they always drop one egg before dying

I agree with the rest of your post, but this part speaks to an issue with pacu farming more than an issue with the balance of pacu fillets.