New wildplanting rules

[miauly]

25 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

if it is really 17x17 for any other plant but the trees, then i see no reason to even bother with pips other then for with trees.

If this is on purpose, then it's a nice exception, although the whole set of rules seem a bit complicated. With everything 17*17 that would be sooo barely usable that it might as well just not exist at all in the game.

[SkunkMaster]

Just now, miauly said:

..... With everything 17*17 that would be sooo barely usable that it might as well just not exist at all in the game.

pips have been nerfed to the point where i personally wont bother with them if i'm not bothered with trees, i wont even bother to hatch the egg. it will be cracked and eaten.

[BaloneyOs]

1 hour ago, nakomaru said:

That's much more than 2 per 17. Good news. Must be a bug with saplings.

Not a bug, you just need to plant them in directional order. Wild trees are pretty OP on hot maps so this is very rewarding but kind of annoying to plan out without a blueprint function.

[nakomaru]

Sorry, I meant 13. But the point is you have found an exception to the rule originally posted.

• A tile is only considered for planting if there are at most 2 plants in a 13x13 square centered at it

[BaloneyOs]

It's not an exception because as long as you plant in directional order with that spacing it won't break the 17x17 rule.

[abud]

Let's start with a simple one: mealwood:

That's not 17x17!

[Grimgaw]

3 minutes ago, abud said:

That's not 17x17!

OP says 13. I'd wager @Coolthulhu got the numbers directly from files.

For 13 it checks out.

[PhailRaptor]

42 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

It's not an exception because as long as you plant in directional order with that spacing it won't break the 17x17 rule.

Perhaps you could define "directional order" for those of us following at home?

[abud]

It's turn out different rule for each type of plant. Pincha:

 

EDIT:

Probably I should mention how I came into those patterns. I'm spawning dirt tiles one at a time from the left side with multiple pips and multiple seeds. Leftmost tile always planted, at that time only one tile in the air with all those pips and seeds cramped together.

[snoozer]

Most dense pattern I could make:

I´ve started with the 3-Tile-Wide room in the middle

It´s 3 tiles between the plants planted to the left and 4 to the right.

[miauly]

1 minute ago, abud said:

It's turn out different rule for each type of plant.

Well it's nice this is still usable in a sense that you can get a wild plant farm late game if you set to, but there's no way Klei will ever include this information into the game directly. I can't come up with any wording even in the in-game database in which something like "Pips will only plant X plants per Y tiles" in say the Mealwood entry wouldn't look completely artificial and atmosphere-breaking.

[nakomaru]

Sorry, I see now. Put another way, you can have up to 3 plants total within a 6 tile radius of any plant. That's true of the arbor trees and mealwood demonstrations.

There's no directional order necessary, but the pattern does somewhat matter.

But it seems there is an exception for the 3/4/3 patterns of pepper and oxyfern. That's apparently 3 plants total within a 4 tile radius of any plant.

On further consideration, see below, it's also the same rule governing the 3/4/3 patterns.

[qda]

Anyone tested if the limitation rule is plant-specific ? That would be weird but if so, gaps could be filled with another type of plant

[Christophlette]

@abud: The pepperplant pattern makes sense. It's a 4 tiles radius. Not counting the center.

For the mealwood though there seems to be a problem. There is no pattern in your experiment. I suspect it's not the most clamped together pattern you could have had. Honestly, judging by the first plant after your leftmost group of 3 and the method you used, I'd say it's the same as the pepperplant. A 4 tiles radius. And you could have a pattern with :

P : plant

S : space

3P 4S 3P 4S 3P

Maybe something went wrong ? 

46 minutes ago, snoozer said:

It´s 3 tiles between the plants planted to the left and 4 to the right.

The pattern seems very weird and unless the game takes the middle of two tiles as a reference (if plant is at x=4, then the game takes 4.5 as the center) then this pattern seems off.

It seems to be a 3 tiles radius. A bit less than the pepperplant in abud experiment.

[nakomaru]

8 minutes ago, Christophlette said:

For the mealwood though there seems to be a problem.

He started from the left and moved right one at a time. If you work it out, it follows this rule exactly: 3 plants total within a 6 tile radius of any plant.

You can get the same global density with 3 mealwoods in a row if you plan your pattern ahead: 3/6/3/6/3. This is why I said pattern kind of matters.

The way it worked out for him, as soon as his leftmost mealwood was no longer being counted, he was 4 tiles away, so it became 3/4/spaced/2/spaced/2

[Christophlette]

2 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

He started from the left and moved right one at a time. If you work it out, it follows this rule exactly: 3 plants total within a 6 tile radius of any plant.

A 6 tile radius would mean there would be at least 6 empty tiles at the right of his first group of 3 plants.

[nakomaru]

54 minutes ago, Christophlette said:

A 6 tile radius would mean there would be at least 6 empty tiles at the right of his first group of 3 plants.

Think about what the what the 4th plant sees at the moment it is planted.

It sees two other plants within 6 tiles. So it can plant. (New plant occurs at position 0.)

Hmm, actually order does matter.

If you try to plant the 5 position last, it will see 3 plants already and fail.

Hmm... the next tile should work too...

This is the 3/4/3 oxyfern pattern, and is "3 per 6" at time of planting,

Hmm. Guess it's always 3 per 6 at time of planting, and the mealwood image is a fluke.

[Christophlette]

22 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

This is the 3/4/3 oxyfern pattern, and is "3 per 6" at time of planting,

I think you're mistaking something when you say that.

Plants will never look 6 tiles to the left and forget to take into account the right.

In fact, in your last screenshot you should take into account the 3rd plant. (the one on top of the "6").

It's has 3 plants in a 4 tile radius centered on itself (4 tiles left, 4 tiles right + itself). The two at its left, and itself. So it can't grow anymore in this zone.

Now consider a plant on the 5. It can't grow because 3 plants in the 4 tiles radius. 3 on its left.

Now a plant on the 4. Same of before, 3 plants on its left.

Now a plant on the 3. There are 2 plants in the 4 tiles to his left. BUT there is itself too. So 3 plants. But it should grow ? So it's at least a 5 tiles radius.

Now a plant on the 2. There is 2 plants in the 5 tiles to his left. BUT there is itself too. So 2 plants. But it should grow ? So it's at least a 6 tiles radius.

Now a plant on the 1. There is 2 plants int he 6 tiles to his left. BUT there is itself too. And now it grows. So yeah it's a 6 tiles radius and I'm sad 

The experiment of snoozer, if everything went right, indicates that the center of this check is between two tiles. To the right of the plant the game is checking. It may be an error.

 

I'll leave the reasoning just because I realized I can't count... It's a 6 tiles radius.

[nakomaru]

Yeah, I confused myself about 9 times thinking this through, too.

[bmilohill]

11 hours ago, Junksteel said:

New wildplanting rules = no wildplanting

 

11 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Ouch, that's way worse than I expected; looks like there's no reason to bother.

 

10 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Why is this even in the game.

I think it only fair to point out wild planting isn't farming. It is hunter/gathering. 
By definition, it should be worse. 

I love these forums for the uber efficient designs for boilers that manage to not lose a microgram of sourgas and have no heat bleeding to the rest of the base. Engineering is great, and the game is an engineering playground. But there is also a potion of the playerbase who enjoys Klei games to relax. There are players who a buy it for the artwork alone. 

IMO, wild planting balance does need to be good enough that a player who really knows what they are doing and plays on an easy map should be able to survive to cycle 200 with only 3 dupes on wildplanting alone. Past that hurdle, there is no need for it to be as good as other tech choices. 

[abud]

52 minutes ago, Christophlette said:

Maybe something went wrong ? 

It is possible, but I'm pretty confident that I waiting long enough for those pips to plant it. The pattern could change if we miss one spot. I didn't make any deduction of planting rules, for example, max X plants within Y tiles. I said it's different because we can see mealwood can have 6 plants within 12 tiles while pincha have 6 plants within 10 tiles. I will check again later when I got free time, especially for some interesting plants like sleetwheat and wheezewort.

[snoozer]

7 minutes ago, abud said:

especially for some interesting plants like sleetwheat

unfortunately pips refuse to plant sleetwheat grain

[Mullematsch]

So if I understand this correctly wild farms can be set up like the trees right now!?

plant - gap - gap - plant - gap - gap ... 

[Denisetwin]

10 hours ago, Nebbie said:

shinebugs as a whole

I loved shine bugs right up to the point they changed it so they interrupted a dupes sleep.  They were a great extra decor roaming the base, you could lock them in with bristle plants early on, if you kept a horde roaming around you rarely ran out of egg shells etc.  The sleep thing has really made them from a critter I always use, to one that is just to be locked away and ignored.

[nakomaru]

9 minutes ago, Mullematsch said:

So if I understand this correctly wild farms can be set up like the trees right now!?

plant - gap - gap - plant - gap - gap ... 

Exactly so. But you must build them in order from left to right or right to left.

You get 33% linear density with this pattern.

The most dense you can get is the 3/4 pattern, which is 43% linear density.