Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 7/4/2019 at 7:46 PM, Troxism said:

Another problem I touched on is that there seems to be a lack of variety in cooling methods on the high end, as basically all of the best cooling methods rely in either turbines or mass destruction of some sort. This is something that could maybe use a second look.

Either way I am generally positive about the change, but I do feel certain alternative cooling methods could use a second look now that fixed output temps are gone in order to ease the transition, and there might be room for the addition of another cooling method simply for the purposes of variety.

The only way you missed that I can think of is using the properties of a phase change to cool.  Lets use water for an example.  Lets assume you have 1kg of polluted water at 60c.  It will take 4.179*(120c-60c)*1kg or 250k DTU to turn it into steam.  The steam will be created by the system at 100c, but will quickly warm up because the system is already hot.  Assuming it warms all the way up to 120c, that's 4.179*20*1kg or 83k DTU more energy.  You can improve the efficiency of your boiler by using some of that energy to warm your water up while at the same time cooling the steam down, but it will still need at least 83k DTU of heat energy to continue operating, because that is how much is lost in the process of the phase change.

 

[Troxism]

The problem is the steam re condenses into clean water, so generally setting up such systems is annoying as they don't tend to be easy to set up infinite loops with. Also I'm not sure if polluted water steams into 100C steam, or 120C steam (never really tried it), but there is some heat loss on state changes in general even for clean water > steam (some of the numbers are a bit weird).

[KittenIsAGeek]

8 minutes ago, Troxism said:

The problem is the steam re condenses into clean water, so generally setting up such systems is annoying as they don't tend to be easy to set up infinite loops with. Also I'm not sure if polluted water steams into 100C steam, or 120C steam (never really tried it), but there is some heat loss on state changes in general even for clean water > steam (some of the numbers are a bit weird).

On the map where I did a lot of boiling, I had two geysers that output a time-average of about 2.5kg/s of polluted water at 60c.  Which was why I was using those numbers.  And yes, clean water > steam also removes heat -- just not nearly as quickly.

[DarkMaster13]

One thought I had that might help for the venting process is if you used the heated materials in useful ways.  For example, you can fly steam rockets with 250 degree C steam, rather than just venting it directly, or petroleum rockets at the same temperature (though that's got a lot less heat capacity than steam).  The main issue is getting useful steam powered cargo rockets with that 2000 kg base weight, you'd need to use thrusters which you'd generally prefer not to use on steam rockets.

[Vuelhering]

Water sieve min output temp seems to be gone. It's not zero.

 

Trying to implement a base heater on Rime, I just fed it some -12C pwater, and it broke my pipes with -12C water.

[KittenIsAGeek]

47 minutes ago, Vuelhering said:

Water sieve min output temp seems to be gone. It's not zero.

 

Trying to implement a base heater on Rime, I just fed it some -12C pwater, and it broke my pipes with -12C water.

Yeah.. I had to set up a constant circulating loop to keep my plumbing from freezing up.  Right now, I've finally warmed the water up to 13c.

Spoiler

Very little heat is actually coming from the sieve -- I think I may throw a space heater over the part where that battery sits.

[RonEmpire]

Not sure if anybody has mentioned it before.

BUT another way of managing heat is using Gulp fishes.   Setting up a fish breeding farm and setting up two sets of water pools.

The pool you want to cool down will be for Gulp fishes.   And the other pool will be for Tropical fishes and Pacu. 

Technically you could use 3 pools  for each fish type since they all have their own temperature.

Each fish upon birth has a FIXED temperature and thus lowers the temperature or increase the temperature of the pool.

It's possible to lower hot water down to the temperature of the Pacu and tropical fishes. 

 

[mathmanican]

8 hours ago, nonoxyl said:

So with the latest changes to sieve output, you can seed your toilet lavatory loop with 20C water and it will overflow 6.7Kg per dupe per cycle of 20C infected polluted water (assuming no heat absorption from your base) which could be used for cooling. Not a lot of mass but its something.

So basically what you are saying is that liquid duplication is definitely developer intended, and a key way to help with temperature management.  We even have 3 tiers (so lots of options - pick your flavor). 

• Low tier: The toilet - duplicates at 5kg/cycle/dupe - not much but definitely usable.
• Middle tier: The Ice maker. (see @nakomaru's post) 
• Top tier: The aquatuner.  Industrialized duplication - why wait for dupes to piss. 

[BaloneyOs]

9 hours ago, nonoxyl said:

So with the latest changes to sieve output, you can seed your toilet lavatory loop with 20C water and it will overflow 6.7Kg per dupe per cycle of 20C infected polluted water (assuming no heat absorption from your base) which could be used for cooling. Not a lot of mass but its something.

Now that you mention this, what if that extra 6.7 kg were to be output at dupes' body temp which is usually 37C? If someone made that mod I'd definitely use it.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

So basically what you are saying is that liquid duplication is definitely developer intended, and a key way to help with temperature management.

I like your logic!

[Nebbie]

24 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

So basically what you are saying is that liquid duplication is definitely developer intended, and a key way to help with temperature management.  We even have 3 tiers (so lots of options - pick your flavor). 

• Low tier: The toilet - duplicates at 5kg/cycle/dupe - not much but definitely usable.
• Middle tier: The Ice maker. (see @nakomaru's post) 
• Top tier: The aquatuner.  Industrialized duplication - why wait for dupes to piss. 

I am quite sure the upper tiers aren't intended... I would expect them to be removed later on, in favor of some guarantee of geysers.

[mathmanican]

1 minute ago, Nebbie said:

I am quite sure the upper tiers aren't intended... I would expect them to be removed later on, in favor of some guarantee of geysers.

That is what I hope as well, hence I keep on bringing it up over and over again.   Maybe someday it will disappear.   

If my constant posting about it annoys someone, please just place me on your ignore list. Hover over my name to the left, and then click "ignore" user.

[pacovf]

11 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

That is what I hope as well, hence I keep on bringing it up over and over again.   Maybe someday it will disappear.   

If my constant posting about it annoys someone, please just place me on your ignore list. Hover over my name to the left, and then click "ignore" user.

Please don't stop posting, you're one of the best things in this forum!

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I am quite sure the upper tiers aren't intended... I would expect them to be removed later on, in favor of some guarantee of geysers.

Seems I am in the minority in thinking that if they do not adversely affect gameplay for the regular player, leave them in. They are fun toys for people to play with on the top end when they are bored with other gameplay. And they can add excitement to the discovery process when players are puzzling out the game mechanics on a fine level. Just my 2 cents.

[Nebbie]

Just now, nonoxyl said:

Seems I am in the minority in thinking that if they do not adversely affect gameplay for the regular player, leave them in. They are fun toys for people to play with on the top end when they are bored with other gameplay. And they can add excitement to the discovery process when players are puzzling out the game mechanics on a fine level. Just my 2 cents.

The issue with mass duplication glitches is they tend to be highly variable and unexpected, which means that small closed self-sustaining systems may end up flooding; extra polluted water from duplicant lavatory use isn't highly variable, and while perhaps somewhat unexpected, isn't going to ever really be in a small closed system.

Also, in general I'm not a fan of exploits that mean you can obsolete reasonable difficulty with unreasonably easy things, and "build your own geyser" is right up in there.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

The issue with mass duplication glitches is they tend to be highly variable and unexpected, which means that small closed self-sustaining systems may end up flooding; extra polluted water from duplicant lavatory use isn't highly variable, and while perhaps somewhat unexpected, isn't going to ever really be in a small closed system.

Also, in general I'm not a fan of exploits that mean you can obsolete reasonable difficulty with unreasonably easy things, and "build your own geyser" is right up in there.

As long as venting material into space is an option, it's not a closed system. So unless it is blowing up builds, I don't see a problem. 

What is an exploit in a single player game? It's not like anyone has to abuse these mechanics. They can be avoided if you're that much of a purist. Why advocate a game change that removes it from other players who value those mechanics?

Also, has heating up natural tiles and then mining them to destroy heat been mentioned?

[Nebbie]

2 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

As long as venting material into space is an option, it's not a closed system. So unless it is blowing up builds, I don't see a problem. 

What is an exploit in a single player game? It's not like anyone has to abuse these mechanics. They can be avoided if you're that much of a purist. Why advocate a game change that removes it from other players who value those mechanics?

I don't mean the overall system being closed, I mean building small closed systems within the base; glitches that add or remove material unexpectedly can cause such systems to fail despite planning, and can cause differences in behavior between something you see drawn up by a player and your own built copy, and that's a problem.

As far as single player exploits, the issue is that you become less motivated to use the more intended mechanics, which can result in missing out on content; a lot of the design of ONI is about each step nudging you towards the next, everything coming with a catch you need to deal with, and certain exploits that invalidate a step can break this design, which is why they removed water sieve cooling.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

I don't mean the overall system being closed, I mean building small closed systems within the base; glitches that add or remove material unexpectedly can cause such systems to fail despite planning, and can cause differences in behavior between something you see drawn up by a player and your own built copy, and that's a problem.

As far as single player exploits, the issue is that you become less motivated to use the more intended mechanics, which can result in missing out on content; a lot of the design of ONI is about each step nudging you towards the next, everything coming with a catch you need to deal with, and certain exploits that invalidate a step can break this design, which is why they removed water sieve cooling.

I'm not missing content friend, I'm looking for more

[bobucles]

7 hours ago, BaloneyOs said:

Now that you mention this, what if that extra 6.7 kg were to be output at dupes' body temp which is usually 37C? If someone made that mod I'd definitely use it.

Bathrooms are one of the situations where a fixed temperature output kind of makes sense. Dupes have an internal temperature, and their waste products will adopt that same temperature. So bathroom water would naturally drift towards 37C.

[gotnoface]

11 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Bathrooms are one of the situations where a fixed temperature output kind of makes sense. Dupes have an internal temperature, and their waste products will adopt that same temperature. So bathroom water would naturally drift towards 37C.

Well if you want to get really technical, it's only the additional waste water that would inherit dupe temperature.

[EnderCN]

You partially covered this but if I'm not mistaken atmo suits are a good way to destroy heat.  Pipe in hot O2, breath it, no CO2 is let out, heat destroyed.  At least I've never seen any CO2 from them, I imagine the bay theoretically destroys the CO2 somehow.

[mathmanican]

3 hours ago, EnderCN said:

no CO2 is let out

Try building a base where dupes wear their suit 99% of the day. Eventually everything overpressurizes from the co2 emmissions. The suit used to delete co2 but no longer does. It gets released when the dupe takes the suit off.

[DaveSatx]

On 7/5/2019 at 9:07 AM, Gurgel said:

Incidentally, the new and devalued water sieve is just as "broken" as it was before. That is if you think it was broken before. I do not. You just need to turn things around and use it as a heater (e.g. on Rime) and you get the behavior some people apparently have deep emotional troubles dealing with. 

oh noes!  now the "proper" fix will be removing the sieve altogether!

[Zakery]

On my oasise map i use (limited) regolith / mafic rock for cooling specific small areas - they have -50C and can be used fo critical places before you reach steam level

[btonasse]

New-ish player here. I literally just signed up to these forums in order to say something in this discussion.

First of all:

On 7/5/2019 at 5:20 PM, Nightinggale said:

If we go back to the original topic, my main concern here isn't about the water sieve specifically. It's heat deletion or rather heat management. The water sieve change is just the last drop of a series of changes lately.

The main issue I see is new players starting a new game. They grow food, the plants get too hot and they starve to death. They do that one or a few times and then there is a bad review because the game is too difficult.

I'm a totally casual player that never really got to the end game, even though I have bought ONI quite a while ago. And I NEVER had any problems with heat in the early game. I only know it becomes a big issue later because I read the forums, watch videos, and... well... use my head. In any case, from my experience as a casual and not very engineering-gifted player, heat only becomes a problem with time and as you start doing more advanced stuff, and that's already experienced player territory. And then:

On 7/5/2019 at 5:20 PM, Nightinggale said:

The problem is that the understandable cooling techs got nerfed. Players will then encounter geyser and suffer the heat death because the the intuitive cooling approaches are too weak.

Well, welcome to the game, I would say? I thought the appeal of ONI was trying to come up with solutions to problems? Why is that an issue? This is the basic premise of any (good) game, actually. You play, you hit a brick wall. You keep playing, you get better, you figure out how to beat it. The type of player that would write a negative review after a couple of hours of play time because "game is too hard" is not the target audience of this type of product anyway.

From my perspective, all this is much ado about nothing. In the OP itself there are many solutions to heat management, and I'm pretty sure all you smart people can find others. I don't want to quote any other specific users because I don't want to be dragged into a pointless word fight here, but I was mind blown to see people "arguing" that fixing the water sieve made the game more rigid and pre-determined, when totally the opposite is true! As an unexperienced casual, I always said to myself that, when and if I started having heat problems in this game, the first thing I would do would be just using sieves and wheezeworts because the solution was so simple and didn't involve much thinking. Then, as I would get more experienced, I would play with other alternatives.

Most of these angry posts sound like rants from people that were set in their ways and are now angry that they will have to actually think to solve the problem (I'm not saying this is definitely the case, just like you sound to my ears). And ironically they are the ones complaining about the rigidity of the other side.

 

That all being said, I think it's obvious that I loved the change. It made the game much more interesting and I'm curious to see where it will go from here. What the hell, I might even try again to get to end game.