Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

[btonasse]

And one thing I forgot to add:

I think you don't necessarily need to delete heat. Some people complain that some of solutions presented are merely heat movers. But why is that not a solution to heat management? I mean, the map is huge enough so you can send the heat far away from you base and not think about it anymore for a LONG time. Yes, if you keep playing only moving heat around eventually the base will cook, but should the game really be balanced around playing one map indefinitely? Sure, it's cool to have this option if you want to, but don't expect the game to be balanced around that.

[gotnoface]

@btonasse You obviously missed the point of what was said there. I and presumably many other people who sunk hundreds or thousands of hours into this game don't care what gets "fixed", the game is reasonably easy for to play under any circumstances. There are sure and proven ways to delete heat permanently, but I feel they are either tedious or non-intuitive, not to mention there are only very few of them.

Heck even your solution to moving the heat elsewhere is not that easy to implement in larger scale and is a high hurdle to overcome for new players and the casual crowd will feel alienated from the cutesy game by having to either learn quite a lot about the game mechanics in-depth or look up a solution somewhere on the internet.

From years of playing this game managing heat is one of the backbones of this survival game and don't get me wrong I'm not sour that our "magical" ways of getting rid of heat are gone, but what I am sour about is that there are now LESS solutions to the problem than I'd like to see in the game where this mechanic is so crucial. Repetition or grinding is not fun, it's just a test of perseverance and patience, that not all of us have and even if we have those, we are still missing on the fun of having varied solutions to said problem.

Edit: Concerning your though about need of heat removal. Yes. It is completely necessary to do that, if you think big. A lot of peopel in these forums make craziest contraptions. We need such such tools. Why should I not expect Klei to deliver? They have been listening to vocal parts of this community (at least partially) for years.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Last month, Many People:  "Fixed-temperature outputs are killing the game!  Plz fix!"

Today, Many People: "I can't heat (or cool) my base anymore because my sieve (electrolyzer) isn't outputting hot (fixed temp) water (air) anymore!  Plz fix!"

 

...

For those arguing that ONI needs to add heat removal tools to the game, we already have that: The steam turbine.  For those arguing that there needs to be an earlier solution... we have that too!  The ice maker/ice-e machine combo.  For those arguing that there aren't enough options.. well, there's also wheezewarts, the AETN, cold slush geysers, and venting to space.  

The new player will have a very difficult time on some maps until they learn how to deal with heat -- but the tools are there.  They've been there for quite some time.  Unfortunately, it sounds like many of the current players have been using alternative methods to deal with their heat and ignoring the available tools -- and now they're struggling.

There are a number of challenges to Survival Mode.  The foundation is providing food and air for your dupes.  In order to accomplish those, you must also find a source of water, and deal with heat (or cold, depending on the map).   The tools are available to manage all of these critical challenges.  ... or you can play in No Sweat mode and not worry as much about them.

As I've found while playing ONI, moderation appears to be the key to success.  Start small, solve small problems.  As your problems grow, so will your solutions.  You don't have to build a farm capable of feeding 50 dupes while you still only have 4 dupes on the map.  

[gotnoface]

I will sound like a broken record, but this is not about struggle. This is about tedium of using only a trickle of solutions. I honestly have no idea how many people megabase the game, but if they do, they will eventually find out that Ice Maker (which I advocate as not cooling solution, much like water sieve wasn't one), AETN and Wheezes are only stopgap measures, if realiable ones.

So I'll drone away and push for space radiators and such to be introduced, as I grumble while building my twentieth aquatuner-turbine loop to cool down my project, cause I have better uses for water than vent it to space. More solutions to heat problem specifically can only enhance this game, just count how many ways and how efficiently you can solve food or oxygen problems in this game. Heat on the other hand is a Cinderella.

[goboking]

24 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Last month, Many People:  "Fixed-temperature outputs are killing the game!  Plz fix!"

Today, Many People: "I can't heat (or cool) my base anymore because my sieve (electrolyzer) isn't outputting hot (fixed temp) water (air) anymore!  Plz fix!"

 

...

For those arguing that ONI needs to add heat removal tools to the game, we already have that: The steam turbine.  For those arguing that there needs to be an earlier solution... we have that too!  The ice maker/ice-e machine combo.  For those arguing that there aren't enough options.. well, there's also wheezewarts, the AETN, cold slush geysers, and venting to space.  

The new player will have a very difficult time on some maps until they learn how to deal with heat -- but the tools are there.  They've been there for quite some time.  Unfortunately, it sounds like many of the current players have been using alternative methods to deal with their heat and ignoring the available tools -- and now they're struggling.

There are a number of challenges to Survival Mode.  The foundation is providing food and air for your dupes.  In order to accomplish those, you must also find a source of water, and deal with heat (or cold, depending on the map).   The tools are available to manage all of these critical challenges.  ... or you can play in No Sweat mode and not worry as much about them.

As I've found while playing ONI, moderation appears to be the key to success.  Start small, solve small problems.  As your problems grow, so will your solutions.  You don't have to build a farm capable of feeding 50 dupes while you still only have 4 dupes on the map.  

'Tis a shame I can only +1 this once.

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 minute ago, gotnoface said:

I will sound like a broken record, but this is not about struggle. This is about tedium of using only a trickle of solutions.

I'm confused. I find there are a huge number of ways to deal with heat.

1. You can put your heat-generating buildings above, to the sides, or outside your base.
2. You can locally cool problem areas with an ice-E fan, or wheezewart.  Or thermoregulator. 
3. You can set up a radiator system to move heat from a large area with an aquatuner.
4. You can set up a free-flow system (i.e. pouring cold water onto a hot floor).
5. You can eliminate heat with a steam turbine.
6. Or by venting to space.
7. Or by using an AETN.
8. Or by using wheezewarts.
9. You can use counter-current designs to transfer heat without using an aquatuner.
10. You can use insulated tiles (or vacuum) to isolate heat until you want to work with it.

I can think of many MANY other solutions, these are just the ones right off the top of my head that I've used in the past week.  Hope this helps get the creativity flowing. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

I will sound like a broken record, but this is not about struggle. This is about tedium of using only a trickle of solutions.

Some people seem to want just the same old gameplay over and over. I'm right there with ya @gotnoface

[gotnoface]

If your aim is to tame volcanoes, most of these are pointless effort, unsuitable as industrial solution or not viable at all, cause they only move heat somewhere else, not remove it entirely. So...

1. You can put your heat-generating buildings above, to the sides, or outside your base.
2. You can locally cool problem areas with an ice-E fan, or wheezewart.  Or thermoregulator. 
3. You can set up a radiator system to move heat from a large area with an aquatuner.
4. You can set up a free-flow system (i.e. pouring cold water onto a hot floor).
5. You can eliminate heat with a steam turbine.
6. Or by venting to space.
7. Or by using an AETN. - not powerful enough, same as wheezes and ultimately not scaleable up size, cause you get max 3 of them
8. Or by using wheezewarts.
9. You can use counter-current designs to transfer heat without using an aquatuner. I do this in most of my industrial designs for productivity, but this is juct moving heat around, not taking care of it
10. You can use insulated tiles (or vacuum) to isolate heat until you want to work with it. Again, just storing/moving heat not getting rid of it.

Your playstyle is not my playstyle. I no longer want to just survive that goal is trivial. I want to thrive, in the most megalomaniac way possible.

[goboking]

5 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

Your playstyle is not my playstyle. I no longer want to just survive that goal is trivial. I want to thrive, in the most megalomaniac way possible.

And heat deletion via fixed temperature output is the keystone to thriving?  It's the linchpin whose absence means a total collapse of the entire system?

[gotnoface]

17 minutes ago, goboking said:

And heat deletion via fixed temperature output is the keystone to thriving?  It's the linchpin whose absence means a total collapse of the entire system?

The heck are you talking about? I do now want fixed temperature building back. Those can die in a fire and I expected these to be removed before launch.

But what I expected was to Klei deliver and give us something, which will fill the void once this method gets removed. They didn't. All of the aforementioned solutions have been in the game for a very very very long time already and I feel they are not enough. I grew tired of using them again and again. I avoided using fixed temp output building for cooling, but I did cause it was fun using them.

Want to liken me to something? I'm like a kid whose toys had been taken away. But I bought this game and recommended it heavily to my friends. I like to play. But now when it's about to be launched they stiffle my creativity. I have very pointed feelings about this and I am making it known.

[pacovf]

1 minute ago, goboking said:

And heat deletion via fixed temperature output is the keystone to thriving?  It's the linchpin whose absence means a total collapse of the entire system?

Their complaint is that large-scale cooling without loss of mass is only possible with steam turbines right now. They want alternatives, for variety's sake. It's a reasonable complaint.

Thinking of which, I would be amused if the AETN was reworked so that instead of removing heat from the environment, it took piped liquid water and outputted -20C ice (still consuming hydrogen). You still get the fun of "exploiting" fixed temperature outputs, only now it's explicitly magic, and limited in where you can do it and how many times.

[KittenIsAGeek]

21 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

If your aim is to tame volcanoes, most of these are pointless effort, unsuitable as industrial solution or not viable at all, cause they only move heat somewhere else, not remove it entirely. So...

1. You can put your heat-generating buildings above, to the sides, or outside your base.
2. You can locally cool problem areas with an ice-E fan, or wheezewart.  Or thermoregulator. 
3. You can set up a radiator system to move heat from a large area with an aquatuner.
4. You can set up a free-flow system (i.e. pouring cold water onto a hot floor).
5. You can eliminate heat with a steam turbine.
6. Or by venting to space.
7. Or by using an AETN. - not powerful enough, same as wheezes and ultimately not scaleable up size, cause you get max 3 of them
8. Or by using wheezewarts.
9. You can use counter-current designs to transfer heat without using an aquatuner. I do this in most of my industrial designs for productivity, but this is juct moving heat around, not taking care of it
10. You can use insulated tiles (or vacuum) to isolate heat until you want to work with it. Again, just storing/moving heat not getting rid of it.

Your playstyle is not my playstyle. I no longer want to just survive that goal is trivial. I want to thrive, in the most megalomaniac way possible.

I disagree.  I have tamed volcanos without venting into space, without a steam turbine, and without using an aquatuner.  I used it to boil water from a polluted water geyser (about 60c).  The water from the polluted geyser cooled the steam back into clean water and while the heat slowly rose, the dormant period of the volcano allowed things to drop back to normal.

[gotnoface]

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I disagree.  I have tamed volcanos without venting into space, without a steam turbine, and without using an aquatuner.  I used it to boil water from a polluted water geyser (about 60c).  The water from the polluted geyser cooled the steam back into clean water and while the heat slowly rose, the dormant period of the volcano allowed things to drop back to normal.

Look, have you noticed me ever talking about not being able to do it? Yes? No.

Apparently you didn't grew tired of using the same trick again and again. Well I have. Count with me: how many scaleable industrial grade heat problem solutions are in the game? 1 building and 1 meta of venting material into space.

[goboking]

6 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

Want to liken me to something? I'm like a kid whose toys had been taken away.

You had a toy taken away, not all of them.  You've got plenty of other toys to play with.  To roll with the metaphor, you're asking your parents to buy you a toy to replace the one they took away while they're reminding you that you still have a closet full toys, and several of them are very similar in function to the one you had taken away.  You're not lacking for toys, you just find the ones you already own uninteresting.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, gotnoface said:

Look, have you noticed me ever talking about not being able to do it? Yes? No.

Apparently you didn't grew tired of using the same trick again and again. Well I have. Count with me: how many scaleable industrial grade heat problem solutions are in the game? 1 building and 1 meta of venting material into space.

I'm simply arguing that you can scale up other solutions as well.  Certainly the steam turbine or venting into space are simple solutions that easily scale.  I'm not arguing that they aren't.  I'm saying that they aren't your ONLY scaleable solutions.  My bases rarely "use the same trick again and again."  What methods I use always depend on what I have available at the time and where I want to see my base go.

*shrug* 

[gotnoface]

3 minutes ago, goboking said:

You had a toy taken away, not all of them.  You've got plenty of other toys to play with.  To roll with the metaphor, you're asking your parents to buy you a toy to replace the one they took away while they're reminding you that you still have a closet full toys, and several of them are very similar in function to the one you had taken away.  You're not lacking for toys, you just find the ones you already own uninteresting.

And as this is something, which I bought and supported before it being released I am fully entitled to voice my displeasure.

@KittenIsAGeek And when mapgen is not kind to you, you'll end up where I'm coming from.

[Kangaax]

7 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

And as this is something, which I bought and supported before it being released I am fully entitled to voice my displeasure.

I don't disagree about variety, however i have to disagree about the timing. I believe I am also fully entitled to ask the devs to focus on issues which are more important to us less than a month away from release, such as fixing the late game lag and making sure the new maps and tweaks are fully playable for new players - completing the tutorials, tweaking recipes and maps so you're not locked out of oxylite for instance.

Yes, they removed part of the heat solutions, but right now is not the appropriate time to add more features to replace the old. We need stability and performance. More cooling can come with the uranium reactors!

[KittenIsAGeek]

3 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

 

@KittenIsAGeek And when mapgen is not kind to you, you'll end up where I'm coming from.

Once again, I disagree.  I have a base on Volcanea that rolled with volcanoes, lava channels, and boulders.  My closest water is immediately above the magma biome.  Close to my starting biome I've found 5 volcanoes in my search for water.  Only the biome directly below me and the biome to my upper left aren't molten. ... and I haven't built an aquatuner or used a steam turbine.  I also haven't reached space yet (keep running into lava that is in my way).

So.. how have I dealt with the heat? Well, for starters, I rushed insulated tiles.  Then I have used some ice-e machines in strategic areas to keep my farms cool enough to produce.  I've also got a heat-pipe radiator set up that passively moves heat away from my dupe's beds.  It'll fail eventually, but if my figures are right, it'll run another couple hundred cycles before I have to re-address the problem.

[gotnoface]

@Kangaax Despite how sour I am about it, that is true...

But you can't also disagree, that they picked teh wrong time to alter one of the most controversive systems. Some rant is warranted.

Edit:

@KittenIsAGeek Once again you argument about survivability. What you argue about is completely irrelevant to my claim. In the first place that was never a theme of my problem with the current state of the game. It's the variety - it just doesn't suffice.

Edit: You can disagree with my point of view all you like, it won't change the "physical" amount of heat solutions that are present in the game.

[watermelen671]

4 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

@KittenIsAGeek Once again you argument about survivability. What you argue about is completely irrelevant to my claim. In the first place that was never a theme of my problem with the current state of the game. It's the variety - it just doesn't suffice.

Ma dude, Kitten is giving example after example of using a variety of methods to scale cooling. You're just stating the same claim over and over again. Maybe use some in-game examples to back up your claims rather than torturing a metaphor?

As it stands you're just ranting for the sake of ranting, rather than giving constructive criticism.

Spoiler

You see, in constructive criticism you need to give examples and possible solutions, so that you make something out of it, rather than just yelling and tearing everything apart.

Spoiler

Slightly tortured metaphor is slightly tortured...

Give us ideas of what you want, further elaborate rather than forcing us to grasp at the vague idea of what you're rambling on about.

You want cooling variety? Well, how do you want it? I know you hate fixed temperature output, and you don't want to use the same things over and over again...so do you want something buffed? Do you want a new building that some how deletes heat? Give us something to work with, otherwise this'll just keep going in circles forever.

The Klei Devs said that whenever they implement a cooling building, they have to offset it with a downside, most of the time being that it just moves where the heat is, rather than deleting it. They don't want to add anything that'll just delete heat freely, because that just negates the challenge of managing it. Might as well just open up sandbox and slap the temperature brush over the whole map.

[Kangaax]

13 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

@Kangaax Despite how sour I am about it, that is true...

But you can't also disagree, that they picked teh wrong time to alter one of the most controversive systems. Some rant is warranted

Agreed. I believe the change was made for balancing reasons, which is a reasonable thing to tackle close to the release, and it seems that they expect us to labor a bit to get the base working, which can deserve some rant if you disagree with that decision.

[gotnoface]

@watermelen671 I thoroghly apologize to the metaphor for torturing it so hard, I went off quite wilder than I expected.

It's not like I don't have ideas for what could be implemented, but my rant had to do also with how Klei was in my eyes, caught with their pants down (imo) once this change rolled out. I expected them to have some ideas prepared.

The idea of vacuum heat radiators probably with gaseous or liquid medium (essentialy heat removal) has been floating around these forums for quite a while. Their needed exposure to space and thus meteorites should be enough challenge to just roll the building out. Their efficiency would up for debate.

Another example would be some building which would use endothermic chemical reactions - conversion of rarer materials into more mundane for heat removal. It wouldn't have to be proper chemical reaction either, this is ONIverse after all.

Edit: heck I could even welcome rocket module, where I could store buttload heat and send it out so that the temporal tear has something to chow on.

[Logicsol]

Throwing my hat in here.

 

If magic heat deletion has been removed from building, magic heat creation should go as well.

Clamping should be eliminated, and replaced with a flat amount of heat added to the output. 

[Neviiir]

IMO:

Early game: scrappy solutions to managing heat (insulation, dropping ice in your base, fans, etc). There are enough tools to work with here.

Mid game: moving heat around (aquatuners, etc). We need more tools to make this easier, I think.

End Game: deleting heat (AETN, venting to space, etc. We also need more tools here, but less urgently than mid game.

[Darkin Coaled]

51 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

rocket module, where I could store buttload heat and send it out

You mean if you were to grab a bunch of water and turn it to steam and load it on a rocket?

Or maybe use some almost boiling water to force some oil out of an oil well, dump millions of DTUs into that oil to get petroleum and then load that on a rocket?

Disclaimer: I;ve never actually gotten to the part where I have rockets but you're kinda missing a very important feature of them I believe