Troxism

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About Troxism

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  1. Seems like opening a security door works, thanks. In that case the description for the achievement needs to be clearer, because it implies inspecting a building, which I didn't even need to do.
  2. I can't seem to get the Ghosts of Gravitas achievement to trigger, no matter how many times I inspect the objects in the Gravitas Facility. Haven't been able to get it in other saves either, but save file attached anyways in case it is something specific to it. The Dupocalypse.sav
  3. So there seems to be some REALLY serious issues with radiant pipes. I'm having radiant pipes constantly spike their contents temp randomly even when sitting still in a stable environment, and when they are hot they seem to keep duplicating heat/resetting the contents temp. And if I am piping cold coolant through an area it's actually self cooling and comes out colder then it went in, despite the area actually being hotter then the coolant. Pretty much everything with radiant pipes seems backwards ATM, but I haven't pinned down the specific issue just vague perceptions of what is going wrong. I literally had some radiant pipes with the flow shut off sitting in some 70C oil, and 3 cycles later the oil is down to 30C and the pipes haven't moved at all the whole time (flow was shut off), and the water in the pipes is actually fluctuating RAPIDLY between 40C and 70Cish. This is in a sealed insulated room.
  4. With the addition of Mealwood seeds in the update shortly after posting this, the situation is a lot better, but would still be nice to see some other buried objects, at least for variety. Do feel a bit silly posting about it just before a change though
  5. Currently there seem to be 2 different starting biomes, the 'old' one and the new Forest/Arbour biome. The old biome had a lot of 'buried objects', which would contain Muckroot, Mealwood seeds, or rarely Hatches/Blossom seeds/Briar Seeds. The new one only has a few Mirth Leaf seeds. The reason this is an issue is that if you play on maximum food difficulty, you are often reliant on digging up early food while you amass enough seeds for a sufficiently sized Mealwood Farm/Blossom farm. But this new biome has no food to dig. To add insult to injury, the lack of diggable Mealwood seeds also slows down the rate you can expand your Mealwood farm, making you have to rely on other food sources for longer (and there are no Blossoms at all). And this new biome also seems to have little starting water, so even relying on Mush Bars to bridge the gap isn't really a viable strategy. On normal difficulty you can survive off the starting Mealwood and set up a farm fast enough, but on maximum difficulty you are practically forced to let some dupes starve regardless of your strategy. While most of the other aspects of the new start biome seem relatively balanced (you have to use alternative methods), this seems pretty uneven as there isn't really an alternative method given. And it doesn't seem like the new start biome is intended to be significantly harder on maximum difficulty then the old one, since the old starter biome is present on many of the 'hard' maps. Plus, even ignoring balance considerations, it seems odd that there are many times less diggable objects to find in the new biome then the old one. Adding in some (rare) buried Oxyfern/Arbour Tree seeds would make sense, along with Mealwood Seeds and some kind of basic food item like Muckroot to even out the early game food situation and give the player things to find of roughly even value to the other start biome. Edit: Well not long after post, buried Mealwood seeds were added to the biome. Would still like to see more variety in buried objects, but it's a significant improvement and at least smooths things out significantly.
  6. This effect you describe might be contributing to the issue, but losing about 1.5-2C water temp at 2kg/s of water usage is only about 12-16KW of heat loss, while I experience heat loss of around 435KW. So while one way state change heat loss might be a small part of the problem, if that was the only issue I wouldn't have even noticed it in the first place (or just assumed it was passive heat leakage since the materials I used weren't perfect insulators). Something else has to be going on here.
  7. Steam Turbine Test.sav Was messing around with an old save file in the new test branch, and was trying out setups for the new Steam Turbine. It seems that the new Turbine (or maybe it's the Aquatuners), is somehow deleting more heat then it should be. Basically, in the save I have a setup with Aquatuners cooling 3.2kg/s of water by 70C on average, which is 936KW of cooling. Now, this heat is used to heat up steam for the turbine, however the turbine is only running at 500ishW on average, and the steam fluctuates between 150C and 160C (due to the buffer I use to automate the tuners), which means the turbine is only converting about 501KW of heat to power (155C steam is cooled by 60C to get 95C water, 60C*2kg*4.179SHC = 501KW). The turbine does have waste heat, but that is only about 50-60KW, and with the way the setup is done here, the tuners are ALSO cooling the turbine in addition to the 3.2kg/s consumed by the Bristle Blossoms, so the turbine waste heat should have no effect on the 'balance' of heat. Somehow a large amount of heat is being destroyed without being converted into power here. I was able to get other players to confirm this issue with alternative aquatuner + steam turbine setups as well, so it doesn't seem to be a case of me missing insulation somewhere and leaking a bunch of heat or something else obvious. I realise this might be a bit vague but I can't think of a better way to explain it.
  8. Taking a glance at the new numbers for Blossoms/Fertiliser Maker and other things, looks pretty good overall, esp the fact that Blossoms require a lower temp now. It's not quite as easy to sustain as just using Outhouses + Composts (you need slightly more Fertiliser per day per dupe then that provides), but that will get you most of the way, and you can make up the rest with Fertiliser Maker (create dirty water with Shower or Lavatory). Or, it is feasible to just use the Fertiliser Maker, but it takes a little more power (and you need Lavatories then for extra water). Might still need more tweaking later down the line to get it perfect, but it's a FAR healthier place overall then it was in either of the two previous updates (either insanely unsustainable originally or trivially easy in the last one). Very happy to see these changes, and it's good to see Blossoms requiring a little more effort then Mealwood (therefore making Mealwood not renew actually have a point to allow Mealwood to be the 'intro' food for beginners and then you are forced to transition into slightly more complicated farming).
  9. So it seems that 'normally' during a geyser eruption, you get a period of time where it emits 666g/s of steam, then for a few seconds in the middle of the eruption it emits 50kg/s of water, then it goes back to steam, then the eruption ends. This seems like it is the intended behaviour. However when the geyser is partially (NOT completely, then the steam seems to not come out due to depressurisation) submerged in water (usually produced by itself), it seems to generate additional copies of the steam/water (this reads as multiple lines of 'generating X steam/water'), and I think it has to do with how many partially covered water tiles there are? This is what appears to cause the absurd '700 tons of water/steam in a single tile' in geysers that are in a very tight space. It's also what seems to be causing the issues with 'geysers producing absurd amounts of water in general', because if a geyser is in a small space with only a few tiles, what happens is all the steam goes into 1-2 tiles and the water is below, which causes this effect (because the geyser is partially submerged but not completely because the steam has nowhere to go). I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but there you go. Edited: Seems like it's related to something else, and it's possible it has something to do with reloading the game. Either way, should discard this and look for the issue causing the multiple emissions elsewhere (it was very consistent for me, but I guess other factors were lining up to cause it).
  10. Something else I was meaning to mention: I think the new oxygen overlay is really confusing. It's very very hard to find contaminated oxygen in your base now: you have to hunt around individual tiles/pay attention carefully to colour which can be hard if you have buildings all over the place blocking the view, and unless your whole base is bathed in yellow it's kind of hard to tell sometimes if you have a 'leak'. I keep finding contaminated oxygen leaking in from weird places outside my base, and often times I don't know about it till many cycles after it actually happens. The old gas overlay was FAR better at telling me at a glance if I needed to fix something. Edit: I looked at the Fertiliser Maker post update: It works fine, but it has the same problem as the Electrolyser used to; it has a 2000kg 'storage tank' for water but won't work if the pipe is empty (so basically it just takes 2000kg of water initially and then never uses it up). Probably just a question of needing to change the value down.
  11. Good changes to Bio Distiller/Fertiliser Maker (their values actually make sense now although if what Risu said about them not taking water fast enough, that could still be a problem), but I have to echo the sentiment that food production is now too far in the other direction (way way way too easy), but I assume this is just a temporary hotfix until more food options are added later? Honestly I think it would have been enough to push the fixes to the Distiller/Fertiliser Maker (to make the Fertiliser Maker actually reasonably usable) and then maybe cut the fertiliser requirement for Blossoms in half, not 10 times. I also don't understand changing Blossoms to have a more lenient temperature curve. I felt like that was a good example of how to add some difficulty to sustainability without just making it a brick wall (and for beginners, you have plenty of Mealwood seeds/Dirt for Mush Bars to give you time to set up an air cooling system in your farm so it actually worked as a decent difficulty curve scaling into the midgame). Honestly I would have liked for it have become MORE stringent. Right now Blossoms are more like Meal Lice used to be before the update which kind of seems like going in circles. Yeah I know it's ironic to complain about it being 'too easy' now, but the pendulum swung so far the other way (Food production efficiency was raised by over 15-20 times with these changes at a glance which is quite absurd) with these changes. Anyways, don't take this as me being super negative; it's just easier to talk about things that are broken then things that are working fine (they tend to jump out far more). Overall I think the update moved in positive directions (making wiring more complex, which while annoying is good for making you think more, temperature is much less wonky, although obviously still not quite perfect ect).
  12. Yeah now that I double checked they did buff the distillery a LOT; looks like it's a ratio of 33 to 1 algae and polluted water from slime but that kind of doesn't seem intended (as it's creating an insane amount of mass from thin air; over 96% of the mass it generates is just poofed into existence, much like the Fertiliser Maker deletes about 98.5% of the mass fed into it, so I guess it almost evens out in a super broken way that makes no logical sense). Honestly I think they should just change the values on this/the Fertilizer Maker to something more reasonable at least for a start. Mass shouldn't be getting destroyed/created in such absurd ratios. This does however make my suggestion above with mass Electrolysers powered by steam vents to generate the power needed for all this stuff far less of a joke and more of a serious idea, although it further jumps the power requirements (MORE electrolysers!) because you have to feel all these distilleries. And the cable networking you would need would be a nightmare to organise to not overload any of the circuits. And I don't think you can renew enough slime from pufts to actually make this sustainable, but it would at least work to let you live a very long time which might be 'good enough'. Edit: So yeah I think I have the framework here for maybe not a 'renewable' base, but something that could sustain quite a few for a VERY long time, but it's a very unrealistic/inefficient method. Basically use the Distilleries to make an absurd amount of polluted water from slime, then steam it via magma (no other method seems to work now as everything just overheats at around 75C, coal plants and the new heaters included) or use the Fertiliser Maker to either make Dirt or Fertiliser, and then use Electrolysers powered by steam vents to make hydrogen to generate the absurd amount of power all this would require. And then get rid of the 90% waste oxygen via freezing. I can already imagine the massive rows of electrolysers and the spider web of cabling and pumping systems you would need for this monstrosity of a base concept.
  13. Even combining methods it doesn't really add up at all looking at more numbers from a few other people. Even if you did multiple recycling methods, it wouldn't be enough, although you might be able to keep a single colonist 'alive' via keeping him fed till the portal spits out another one, but that is a pretty silly way to play (and the point is having more then one colonist). Also, while I don't know exactly how much fertiliser you get from letting food rot, unless you get many times more total mass in Kg of fertiliser then the mass of the food (You spend far more mass in fertiliser then you get back food; keep in mind a single food box only holds 150kg total so food weighs relatively little compared to other things), that wouldn't do anything at all; it would just be throwing away food. And if this actually does give more then you put in, well tbh I would call that a bug because it would make no sense at all. Also, Bristle Blossoms gave seeds when eaten before this update; this wasn't a new change. Not that it really matters. Also, you are correct that you could probably keep a small colony of 10 alive for quite a while, it would basically be done via burning an absurd amount of water per day, which bothers me on a realism level (obviously the Kg values are already massively inflated in this game, but burning literally 20+ tons of water a day to keep 5-10 people alive stretches my suspension of disbelief a little too far). The other problem is even if you literally had infinite contaminated water via some method, you would still need to burn an absurd amount of pure water as well (from geysers I guess) to power hydrogen generators to power all those Fertiliser Makers you would need (as a Dupe can only do about half the power to power the ones he would need just to feed himself). Basically you would literally be using electrolysis just to generate hydrogen and treating oxygen as a waste product (you would probably condense/freeze it save space as you would be generating easily 10-20x the amount you could actually use, which btw would take even more power which would lower the efficiency and make you make even MORE electrolysers....) just to generate the required power. And then you would have to deal with all the heat from this. Which is just further into the realm of 'completely silly' tbh.
  14. On the topic of food sustainability post update: There are two obvious ways to make food long term: Bristle Berries and Mush Bars. Note: I make some assumptions here: AFAIK a cycle is about 600 seconds real time (but obviously its 150 seconds on 4x, but this matters for building consumption rates), and this is used in some of the math. So if I'm wrong correct me, although tbh this value would have to be WAY off for it to change much. Bristle Berries produce 5 fruits (5000kcal total) in 18 cycles (10 for the initial growth then 4 regrowths at 2 cycles each). The plant consumes 20kg fertiliser a day. AFAIK a dupe consumes 1000kcal a day, so to sustain a single dupe this way you need: 18/5*20 = 72kg of fertiliser a day. The methods of producing fertiliser are: 1: Outhouses convert dirt to polluted dirt and then Compost that into fertilizer (both conversions are 1 to 1), so you would need 72kg of dirt per day per dupe. Except dupes only use the Outhouse once a day AFAIK (even if it's twice, it doesn't change this much), so you could only produce a maximum of 6.7kg of fertiliser per dupe per day this way, far far far short of the required amount. And this would ofc still require dirt. So this method is clearly nowhere near being sustainable. 2: Use the Fertiliser Maker building. This uses Polluted Water at 1333g/s to make 22.2g/s of fertilizer. Yes I double checked those numbers (this thing is absurdly useless in it's current state). Note that it confuses me where all that mass goes, but that is beside the point. If you were to use this method, you would require 72000/22.2/600 = 5.405 of these buildings per dupe running at 100%, which would also consume 5.405 * 120W = 648W of power, far more then that dupe could produce themselves. It would also create an absurd amount of waste heat. And finally, it would require: 22.2/1333 = 0.01665 ratio of fertilizer to water, then 72kg fert required = 72/0.01665 = 4324kg of polluted water per day per dupe. This is so hilariously unrealistic that between this and all the other problems of this method, this option is obviously completely unusable. Now maybe there is some far more efficient method of making fertiliser that I missed, but it seems like Bristle Berries are completely unsustainable after your initial supply of mined fertiliser runs out (and there doesn't seem to be that much of it either). I will note here that I'm not even looking at it from the point of view of 'you should be able to live forever', but that you can at least live a few hundred cycles with a decently sized (15-20 man) colony before running out of key stuff. In the previous update this was EASILY possible even without any exploits (just don't waste water on anything but making oxygen, and you could filter all the contaminated water with nothing but Dupe powered wheels via steam). But you would run out of fertiliser far before this point even with a very small 5 man colony in this update. So this method is clearly out of the question, even if you aren't looking to live forever but just 'a while', unless there is some massive cache of fertiliser hidden in some biomes that I don't know about. So what about Mush Bars? Well, a Mush Bar takes 75kg dirt and 75kg of water each, so 75kg dirt and 75kg water per cycle per dupe this way. Now you can probably get the water (I don't know how much water geysers produce per cycle, but lets assume it's sufficient to sustain this, or at least just go with the logic that there is a lot of water in the world for simplicity's sake.), but what about the dirt? I know you can make dirt via turning contaminated water into steam, but I have a hard time imagining you being able to sustain 75kg a cycle per dupe (even a modest 10 man colony would require 750kg of dirt every single cycle...) Meaning you would have to boil absurd amounts of water every single day. And you would likely run out of contaminated water, even with CO2 scrubbers/showers/lavatories (none of these seem to create enough to sustain this), since this 75kg dirt is per dupe per cycle. This MIGHT be possible, if I am greatly underestimating the ratio of dirt recovered per Kg of contaminated water (if it was 1 to 1, it would work, but from what I remember it's a small fraction, and tbh if it is 1 to 1 it's really broken as it's creating tons of mass out of thin air), but it seems a huge stretch. And this basically relies on the fact that Mush Bars are bugged and don't even make you sick right now (else the requirements would double). Point of all this is: It's actually seemingly much harder to sustain yourself then it was before the patch (even if you aren't talking about literally living forever, you are still heavily limited by resources in the 'reasonable term'), which is confusing since it seemed like the intent of adding things like geysers was to assist with that? An obvious question one might ask is 'well why does anyone care if you can sustain yourself for a long time?'. Well, one answer I can give is that if you are heavily limited by resources, then the incentive is to never add any new dupes to your colony, which means your colony stays very small. And the problem with a small colony is that you are 'done' building up very quickly. It's fun to keep adding more people, because it forces you to expand/rebuild/rework your design to accommodate them; it keeps the game interesting for a longer period of time. I do agree with the sentiment that food shouldn't be as easy as it was before (it was basically a non factor), but I feel this is going a little too far in the other direction. Stuff like requiring you to regulate crop temperature carefully by making them far more sensitive would have been a better move IMHO, and/or adding other requirements for sustainable farming to make it more complicated. Anyways, that is my (long) two cents on the issue. Like I said, if the ratio of dirt per kg of contaminated water boiled is far more favourable then I remember, it might be barely possible to sustain yourself on Mush Bars, but it's still silly that farming plants is effectively completely non viable without exploiting digging up mealwood early.
  15. Some of these mods I'm working on have instability issues (since I am no Lua Expert), or haven't been tested enough by me yet/need more tuning. I'll probably post about it at some point, but obviously not here (already derailing thread enough). Just kind of working on it 'on and off'.