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About Troxism

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  1. Ghosts of Gravitas not completing?

    Seems like opening a security door works, thanks. In that case the description for the achievement needs to be clearer, because it implies inspecting a building, which I didn't even need to do.
  2. I can't seem to get the Ghosts of Gravitas achievement to trigger, no matter how many times I inspect the objects in the Gravitas Facility. Haven't been able to get it in other saves either, but save file attached anyways in case it is something specific to it. The Dupocalypse.sav
  3. If anyone was curious on a breakdown of tofu post patch vs other foods (there is some very minor rounding with these numbers but it's not enough to really matter) Regular Tofu consumes 43.2kg of water (mixed polluted and clean) per cycle to feed a single dupe on normal difficulty. This assumes irrigating/dupe harvesting trees, and the needed dirt is acquired by composting the ethanol polluted dirt. Spicy Tofu consumes 34.5kg of water/cycle if you ignore the peppernut, with the peppernut included (ie the total) it's 52kg/cycle In comparison to other water based foods for those curious to how that stacks up in practice: Berry Sludge consumes 55kg/cycle to feed 1 dupe on normal, +3 quality. Stuffed Berry is 86.36kg/cycle (it got buffed to 4400kcal the patch before, used to be 95kg before) including the peppernut, +4 quality. Has the dubious distinction of also requiring 3 cooking actions total per 4400kcal which is worse then pretty much any other food. Pepper Bread is 67.5kg/cycle including the peppernut, +5 quality (same as spicy tofu) Frost Buns are 50kg/cycle, +2 quality (same as regular tofu) Gristle Berries are 60kg/cycle, +1 quality So in terms of pure water efficiency Nosh Beans are great. They are also easier to cool then Sleet Wheat, since Ethanol has way lower SHC then water, and comes out at about 75C, while water usually comes at around 95C or even higher from geysers. And even if you had a source of cold water (like a slush geyser), that water could be used to cool ethanol, which as mentioned has lower SHC so you can 'make' more cold ethanol from the same amount of cold water. And the masses of ethanol consumed are similar to water, since you only need very slightly more nosh plants then wheat plants (2.5 vs 2.68 for pepper bread vs spicy tofu), and the water used for actually making the tofu at the musher/irrigating the trees doesn't need to be cooled nearly as much (or at all in case of the musher). Although tbh in practice it's somewhat more efficient to directly cool the plants directly then their irrigation (as mass is constantly being destroyed by the plant, before it has a chance to fully drop in temp) , but the ratios still apply either way, and it's easier to visualise the difference by just looking at cooling the irrigation water vs ethanol. Having said all this, beans do have some drawbacks. While there is much less cooling needed, which generally saves a lot of power, you do need to pay some power for the ethanol distiller. In addition there is more dupe labour involved since you also have to harvest trees not just the beans, and you have to get bottles from a pitcher pump to make tofu. Pepper Bread also only requires a single cooking action instead of 2 for Spicy Tofu. However you also get extra dirt from the distillery even accounting for the fertilisation requirement of Nosh Beans, and you get extra CO2 which can be valuable as well. It can also be a bit of a pain to get more acorns if you want a lot of trees via pips since it's 1 per tree then you have to replant the tree to get another. Overall it seems more or less right. Beans are better in many cases, but they do have a few drawbacks, and at least they aren't a copy-paste of wheat anymore. On a separate note, I am confused as to why BBQ is still +3 after the removal of peppernut. Other single ingredient foods only gain +1 morale, making BBQ a huge outlier. And I do agree pacu ranching seriously needs a second look, as currently it's just totally broken and has been for many updates. While other methods of 'free' farming (like regular dreckos off balm lily or voles off regolith) exist, those are way more labour (since you actually have to groom some animals still)/space intensive and generally require way more complex setups then the current infinite 'breed a bunch of pacu and then never feed them anything' setups. While you can technically ranch any animal for 'free' like you can pacu, the issue is that pacu have a very short lifecycle meaning you get your free meat much more rapidly (meaning you need way less total critters), and their fast reproduction means it's possible to get to a sufficient stock far too easily compared to say trying to get free meat from unfed hatches.
  4. So there seems to be some REALLY serious issues with radiant pipes. I'm having radiant pipes constantly spike their contents temp randomly even when sitting still in a stable environment, and when they are hot they seem to keep duplicating heat/resetting the contents temp. And if I am piping cold coolant through an area it's actually self cooling and comes out colder then it went in, despite the area actually being hotter then the coolant. Pretty much everything with radiant pipes seems backwards ATM, but I haven't pinned down the specific issue just vague perceptions of what is going wrong. I literally had some radiant pipes with the flow shut off sitting in some 70C oil, and 3 cycles later the oil is down to 30C and the pipes haven't moved at all the whole time (flow was shut off), and the water in the pipes is actually fluctuating RAPIDLY between 40C and 70Cish. This is in a sealed insulated room.
  5. I usually just seal up the liquid lock with insulated tile once I'm done building to prevent heat leakage like here. Allows access later if I want to change the design for some reason, without having heat leak out. (And yes you can cut 2 diagonal tiles from that oil lock, I just don't bother because I like the look better this way, even if it 'wastes' more oil.) Later in the game I replace with a double visco-gel vacuum lock (vacuum in between the 2 gel locks),which prevents all heat transfer while still allowing full access, (see top right of the following screenshot), while being quick to build as you can just put a mini pump to quickly vacuum the space in between (or you can build/deconstruct tiles there to delete the gas, but this is sort of cheaty). Using these methods, it's fairly simple to make vacuum steam chambers without leaving pumps inside as you can come back in to deconstruct them (well obviously you do the oil method in the early game but yeah), without forcing you to get it 100% right the first time, which is helpful for less experienced players.
  6. The problem is the steam re condenses into clean water, so generally setting up such systems is annoying as they don't tend to be easy to set up infinite loops with. Also I'm not sure if polluted water steams into 100C steam, or 120C steam (never really tried it), but there is some heat loss on state changes in general even for clean water > steam (some of the numbers are a bit weird).
  7. It's still building temp. So yeah, it's still usable for petroleum deletion, but you can't get the output water nearly as cold as before.
  8. So, the latest patch actually made another change outside of lowering the min temp of the sieve to 0. It actually gave the Petroleum Generator a min temp of 40C for the water, and it looks like 110C for the CO2 even if the generator's temperature is lower. So it isn't nearly as useful as a cooling tool. Something to note for reference as it's a cooling method that is far more limited now, as you can only produce 40C coolant at best. Not directly relevant to cooling, but Rust Deoxidizer looks like it's at 75C min output, even higher then the Electrolysers 70C, which doesn't really make much sense, but whatever. I was figuring the Rust should be somewhere between Electrolysis and Algae, like 50C.
  9. I never said I wanted a full physics sim. My 'camp' (didn't know this was about 'camps' and 'sides', either way as can be seen by this thread you can't break down people into 2 groups neatly as there are a lot more issues brought up then just physics realism) is that I think people should explore the other alternatives we have that people have been ignoring for a while (hence my summarising them). Edit: This btw was the main reason I was generally positive about the change, because I expected it to lead to more usage/exploration of alternatives rather then using a single strategy. And if those alternatives are not sufficient to make the game reasonably playable for the average player, then further changes should be made to either improve existing methods or add more methods. That is the point of testing. This game breaks physics at every turn in ways most people don't even think about or ever mention and fixing all of those would be impractical for all kinds of reasons anyways, so I was never much for 'pure physics' myself in the context of this game. My point was never about physics, but pointing out a flaw in the reasoning used to argue for why sieve cooling should have remained in the game. The point of the thread was to have a conversation about the remaining cooling methods, not to get dragged into debating the sieve changes. But in all fairness I was the one who continued it after it was brought up, so it's my fault. P2O offgassing is intended (there are some nice builds for it using airflows to increase surface area to make it work on an industrial scale, so the bottle thing isn't really needed), as it's just 1 to 1 water to oxygen conversion (which is very much in line with other methods of making oxygen), closer comparison would be Morbs since those just make polluted oxygen out of nothing and can be 'farmed' with outhouses for no resource cost. On a lighter note, personally ever since QoL MKIII I've always been partial to adding another late game cooling method as an alternative for turbines (as I have been thinking about the lack of late game alternatives since then), and a suggestion I've seen a lot is some kind of space radiator that slowly radiates heat from coolant pumped through it. An idea I've heard to make it not completely brain-dead (not my own idea) just spamming these was to make the cooling work much faster with much higher temperatures, so that you would still want to heat the coolant up to very high temps first for optimal efficiency. Would still probably need some other limitations, but would be an interesting alternative with the right resource/physical space costs since it would have to be in a vacuum to work.
  10. There is a bit of a flaw with the reasoning, because with the same reasoning you could just as easily say 'Well matter duplication currently exists (and yes an example of a 'practical' build for doing this has been posted before by mathmanican), so you can make an infinite amount of basically anything with little effort, so everything should cost zero resources because it doesn't matter as long as matter duplication is in the game.' One thing being broken doesn't mean it's okay for everything else to be broken, as that is a very slippery slope to go down, and there are many serious bugs in the game that are still around, usually because they are difficult to fix. You could also flip the logic, as there are many things in the game that are really underpowered/useless too, so clearly everything else should be nerfed to that level. It just doesn't really work that way though. Another way to reword that argument is: 'well heat clamping is kind of broken, which justifies any sort of other heat deletion, but heat clamping is too hard to fix without causing other huge annoyances, so therefore we can't fix heat clamping, and therefore anything else is justified.' It's circular logic. On the specific subject of temp clamping, as mentioned, simply removing it would cause way too much hassle for players as dupes just take the closest pile of materials, and something like a 'forbid' option suggested in the above post would have to be added at a bare minimum. That still wouldn't fully fix the issue as you would still have to micromanage all digs of hot materials (or make everything auto-forbid which would be annoying). And that would at the very least take adding some new UI, which would take work, so it's not that shocking it hasn't been changed yet, because temp clamping is rarely intentionally abused, meaning it's not a high priority considering the difficulties of changing it. Putting an expectation/requirement on devs that they aren't allowed to change anything, if they don't fix EVERYTHING else that might be problematic at the same time doesn't really make much sense as it's just not practical. Edit: Was incorrect about something, removed it.
  11. Yeah that is why I didn't bring up stuff like this in the OP. But since some people seem to be asking for oddball 'unintended' solutions to cooling, it's worth at least mentioning in case it interests someone.
  12. Yeah if you are willing to manually build/deconstruct over and over you can abuse tempshift plates and temp clamping pretty hard. Another very cheesy method to destroy a lot of heat.
  13. Sure you can say 'most isn't the same as all', and that is completely fair but nobody even mentions what their issue with the Ice Maker/Fan, they just ignore it's existence. And I'm sorry to pick a specific example, but this is endemic to the thread, I just can't quote every example as it would be silly. Overall not really sure what to say. In general people just keep repeating the same stuff without addressing anything that was brought up, as if simply restating your position is making it stronger? If that is how these forums are supposed to work, then not sure what the point of them is as what that amounts to is a bunch of people yelling at the sky.
  14. You know I hate to get into debating definitions like this for exactly the reasons I just said in the other post, but I have to ask. If your definition of meta is that it's 'straightforward uses of buildings that have been known for a long time', then how was sieve cooling any different? It was very well known and pretty straightforward compared to some of the other concepts for cooling. Also the idea suggested is blatantly abusing a bug, which if your okay with that, more power to you, but sieve cooling wasn't a bug, it was working as intended, so if 'meta' means not using some bug, then sieve cooling would still be 'meta' as well. It's just hard to understand what point you are trying to make exactly by tossing the term around. Also on a different note, people seem to be constantly overlooking the Ice Maker/Ice Fans which do delete heat and are a universal, early game option that you can use on ANY map. If people's reasoning is that they are too weak for the early game due to changes/nerfs, fine, but nobody ever seems to bring them up when they talk about being forced to 'rush turbines'. And frankly if they are way too weak, then that is an issue worth talking about, and maybe asking devs for a change. But nobody seems to even consider them, which is ironic, considering the lack of options is a major topic for debate.
  15. Heh. I considered that, but it was so blatantly exploity (made up words FTW) (mass duplication) I figured I wouldn't mention it. Since it doesn't just generate cooling but a lot of other stuff (in that case, water too, which pretty much runs the entire game). Honestly I didn't expect this to blow up so much and I'm kind of sad the thread mostly turned into a shouting match rather then a conversation (I think the whole debate about IRL stuff is kind of beside the point). I sort of regret posting in the first place as it seems like the thread touched a lot of nerves on a sore subject, and it may have been better to wait a bit for people to think about it more, I just figured it was relevant to give some information on alternative cooling methods so people had a chance to try other options if they weren't aware of them already. In general there seems to be a few camps: people who want more late game cooling options for variety (usually the proposed idea is space radiators), people who want more early game options for variety, and then people who think it's too hard to cool in the early game now (separate issue from variety). Some people obviously fall into multiple of those categories. That is sort of part of the reason the conversation is so messy, and it's probably because I made the post too generalised. A couple points to try to add to what was said.... Someone mentioned using ethanol for cooling... It turns into gas at about 78C, so as mentioned in the OP the only way to cool with it is to heat the gas, and then vent the gas into space, as there isn't any way to burn off the gas currently. It seems a few people don't understand the concept of how aquatuners let you use high temperature coolant for low target temperature cooling jobs (Obviously not everyone, I'm just trying to get everyone on the same page however). So TLDR is: Tuners move heat, which is useless on paper but their power is in their ability to create a heat differential, as they can use 'coolant' up to their overheat temp (175C with gold, 275C with steel), and then that coolant can either be cooled (turbine) or destroyed once it's too hot. This means you can use for example 150C petroleum to 'cool' 75C water down to 30C, which wouldn't be possible with just a radiator (ie direct heat exchange) and that is why it's worth paying 1200W to run the tuner, and why Steel tuners are so much more useful, even outside of Steam Turbines. Yes I realise what I just said might seem dead obvious to a lot of people, but I wanted to clarify as it seemed there was a little confusion. Apologise if it sounds insulting to anyone. I also don't understand some of the objections about 'meta'. It's a vaguely defined catch-all term that basically seems to be used as a 'thumbs down' on any strategy the user doesn't like, because apparently too many other people do it? In and of itself that isn't even a problem (any definition can be valid if people agree on it), but it's used in a way where it's obvious nearly every person using the term has a different definition, and debating about things like that when nobody actually agrees on a definition for a key term is well, quite fruitless. It's the same as arguing about 'fun', as different people find different things fun. An obvious example of this, although not relevant to this thread specifically: some people like really punishing, challenging games (and therefore find them 'fun'), and others find them frustrating. Now think back to conversations you have read/been a part of about games like that, and realise how many times people argued about 'fun' as if it was some universal norm with no deviation. My point here is, vague loosely defined terms don't really help anyone as both people see the same term as different things, and can't understand why the other person 'just doesn't get it!' Klei actually did explain their reasoning on why the sieve outputs at a min of 40C (some people said they have been silent on this which isn't really accurate). The TLDR summary is basically something like: The core design philosophy of this game is that every machine solves one problem, and then creates another. For example the Electrolyser solves your oxygen problem, but creates hydrogen as a side effect, meaning you then have to deal with the hydrogen by burning it off in a generator. The Aquatuner cools the stuff pumped through it, but doesn't actually destroy, just moves the heat into itself. Ect ect. The idea was that the sieve was supposed to have the side effect of generating heat as it's version of this sort of thing. Now obviously you can disagree with that reasoning, but it does make basic sense from a game design perspective (not from an IRL logic perspective, but this game has never really been about that). Either way I'm just presenting it here because that is more or less their argument. I'd say more, but this is probably already too long and too 'meta' (ironic, no) of a post anyways.