Summarising Cooling Methods Post Fixed Output Temps

[gotnoface]

@Darkin Coaled Ha! You got me there. I was indeed using this too, without realizing what I was actually doing. It's a solution yes...

Still would like a buidling which would be a midpoint between this early game and rockets.

@watermelen671 Let me address more of your qualms with how I expressed myself.

The asteroid with unbottled geysers is a finite game. Heat death will claim it. Probably even without them as we have meteorites raining down every so often. The asteroid in this game doesn't radiate heat by itself like all other celestial object do.

Every other solution to this problem except Steam Turbine and venting coolant out is a no-go, because those aren't powerful enough and frankly, they shouldn't be more powerful. They are fine just the way they are and they fullfill their purpose.

Wheezes are mid game treasure as they can stave off a lot of problems, so is AETN. Whezes scaling up are difficult either requiring rocket or packages. Also wheezes require loads of space (wild) or ranch setup (phosphorite).

Ice Maker + Fan combo, not scaleable. Requires too much dupe labor (also I don't acknowledge this as proper cooling solution, cause it's weak and Ice Maker should be just ice making, storing liquid as solid and trasnport it independently of pipes)

All other proposed solutions were just cooling/moving heat around. Not getting rid of it.

I don't want cheap heat removal solutions, I just want more variety of solutions.

Another example? Let's look at Don't Starve.... hmm what about endothermic forge? Let's burn salt or oxygen with some modestly valuable mineral/metal to create endothermic flame.

[watermelen671]

31 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

Another example? Let's look at Don't Starve....

Except there really isn't any variety in DS. There are options that are definitively superior, in winter you have Thermal Stone(s)+Tam o' Shanter+Hibearnation/Winter Koalefant Vest, in summer you have Thermal Stone(s)+Eyebrella. Sure there are others you can use, but you have to use Thermal stones regardless if you want to survive long-term.

Spoiler

It's not even a matter of opinion, the examples I listed are objectively superior to any other combination, and using anything else would just be a waste of time and resources.

Spoiler

Although I'm not too sure about the winter torso slots because I'm a 3k hour scrub who continues to always have my backpack on me.

 To put it simply, Steam Turbine/Venting into Space is ONI's thermal stone. If you want to survive, you have to use it.

38 minutes ago, gotnoface said:

Let's burn salt or oxygen with some modestly valuable mineral/metal to create endothermic flame.

Okay, let's take that example and run with it.

Right out the gate I can see several exploits, mainly being that almost minerals/metals are easily renewable with taming volcanoes, ranching(?) and going into space.

Spoiler

Not too sure about the ranching bit, because IIRC I don't recall people discussing the applications of smooth hatches all that much anymore.

Oxygen you can get by the metric ton, so you're basically easily deleting heat in exchange for something that's easily recovered. It's too easy. 

There has to be a major drawback in exchange, like lost duplicant labor, heat (essentially) being moved around; it has to have a balanced risk/reward to it otherwise we have another case of fixed output temps, except in a different flavor of paint.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

Right out the gate I can see several exploits,

What you call an exploit, I call a feature.

I honestly think some players would be happier with this...

 

[watermelen671]

3 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

What you call an exploit, I call a feature.

Well, the same thing was said of the water sieve.

Also borg cubes, and drip cooling, and petrol cookers, etc.

Spoiler

This is making me feel nostalgic, even though this game has only been in development for 3 years...

 

[Logicsol]

7 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

Well, the same thing was said of the water sieve.

Also borg cubes, and drip cooling, and petrol cookers, etc.

  Reveal hidden contents

This is making me feel nostalgic, even though this game has only been in development for 3 years...

 

Water sieve and petrol cookers(unless there was a super exploity version I'm not aware of) were features, hands down.

Direct applications of intended mechanics = feature.

 

Borg cubes and drip cooling used bugs in the calculation process to function.

Reliance on bugs to function = exploit.

 

[watermelen671]

Just now, Logicsol said:

petrol cookers(unless there was a super exploity version I'm not aware of) were features, hands down.

Direct applications of intended mechanics = feature

Except they weren't. That's why Sour Gas is now a thing.

If something is introduced that breaks the old application, then it wasn't the intended mechanic you were using, it was an exploit that was fixed.

[Logicsol]

1 hour ago, watermelen671 said:

Except they weren't. That's why Sour Gas is now a thing.

If something is introduced that breaks the old application, then it wasn't the intended mechanic you were using, it was an exploit that was fixed.

No, that's a change in mechanics. By your logic practically the entire game pre-release is an exploit because new mechanics were introduced to address flaws or short comings. It would make any wheezewort usage an exploit because it now takes fertilization.

Fixed temps were not a bug, but how klei designed the buildings to function at the time.

Petrol to Nat Gas was the intended material change. Making the game do literally what the game logic says will happen isn't an exploit just because Klei later added an entirely new material in between those.

If you found a way to change petrol directly to nat gas now, bypassing the sour gas phase; that would be an exploit.

 

 

[Dujour]

5 hours ago, gotnoface said:

I will sound like a broken record, but this is not about struggle. This is about tedium of using only a trickle of solutions. I honestly have no idea how many people megabase the game, but if they do, they will eventually find out that Ice Maker (which I advocate as not cooling solution, much like water sieve wasn't one), AETN and Wheezes are only stopgap measures, if realiable ones.

So I'll drone away and push for space radiators and such to be introduced, as I grumble while building my twentieth aquatuner-turbine loop to cool down my project, cause I have better uses for water than vent it to space. More solutions to heat problem specifically can only enhance this game, just count how many ways and how efficiently you can solve food or oxygen problems in this game. Heat on the other hand is a Cinderella.

You are exaggerating. You can easily cool a 20+ dupe base with a single room, 2 tuner 1 turbine solution. Current base post fix running about 23 dupes, and I have to run a double tuner one turbine cooling station at about 60% effort in order to not freeze my crops to death, while keeping a separate water and waste reservoir at sub 30c.

Im not sure what you are grumbling about.

[watermelen671]

3 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

No, that's a change in mechanics. By your logic practically the entire game pre-release is an exploit because new mechanics were introduced to address flaws or short comings. It would make any wheezewort usage an exploit because it now takes fertilization.

Fixed temps were not a bug, but how klei designed the buildings to function at the time.

Petrol to Nat Gas was the intended material change. Making the game do literally what the game logic says will happen isn't an exploit just because Klei later added an entirely new material in between those.

Bah, I didn't explain meself correctly. And also totally forgot what I was talking about. 

I meant the exploit of quickly changing crude oil to nat gas by rapidly overheating it and skipping the petrol stage. 

[Dujour]

1 minute ago, Logicsol said:

No, that's a change in mechanics. By your logic practically the entire game pre-release is an exploit because new mechanics were introduced to address flaws or short comings. It would make any wheezewort usage an exploit because it now takes fertilization.

Fixed temps were not a bug, but how klei designed the buildings to function at the time.

Petrol to Nat Gas was the intended material change. Making the game do literally what the game logic says will happen isn't an exploit just because Klei later added an entirely new material in between those.

If you found a way to change petrol directly to nat gas now, bypassing the sour gas phase; that would be an exploit.

 

 

Focusing on labeling the functionality as a bug or not is a false narrative. Cooling solutions relying on tiny tidbits doesn't make sense for ONI. Dont starve is a world of magic, and you can have your magical heat sucking stones and cold burning fires. ONI has a more science only based theme. The whole idea of "deleting" heat is an exploit of the broken functionality of buildings that went uncorrected for too long. 

I forget the poster, but someone put it succinctly: Deleting heat was weird.

5 hours ago, nonoxyl said:

Some people seem to want just the same old gameplay over and over. I'm right there with ya @gotnoface

Some people want to repeat easy mode exploits to deal with a difficult mechanic over and over. 

[Logicsol]

7 minutes ago, Dujour said:

Focusing on labeling the functionality as a bug or not is a false narrative.

Yeah no. It's literally the difference between a feature and an exploit. Whether or not it makes sense or is a good gameplay loop is an entirely different conversation.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Dujour said:

Cooling solutions relying on tiny tidbits doesn't make sense for ONI. Dont starve is a world of magic, and you can have your magical heat sucking stones and cold burning fires. ONI has a more science only based theme. The whole idea of "deleting" heat is an exploit of the broken functionality of buildings that went uncorrected for too long. 

I forget the poster, but someone put it succinctly: Deleting heat was weird.

Don't know if you caught it or not, but I'm not against removing magic heat deletion. I just want magic heat creations to go out the window with it. If I have to get rid of magic heat, then I don't mind a magic removal process.

[Dujour]

On 7/7/2019 at 1:59 AM, nonoxyl said:

Seems I am in the minority in thinking that if they do not adversely affect gameplay for the regular player, leave them in. They are fun toys for people to play with on the top end when they are bored with other gameplay. And they can add excitement to the discovery process when players are puzzling out the game mechanics on a fine level. Just my 2 cents.

Argh. Leave them in the debug tools. Leave them for modders to implement or change. Don't leave them in the base game. They are inappropriate for the theme and style of the game. 

The challenge and thus fun(tm) is to win over the environment without cheesing the systems. If the systems don't make sense, or you can cheese them all to triviality ultimately takes the challenge and fun from the game. 

We shouldn't have to mod the game to sensible functionality. You should have to mod the game for nonsensical functionality like a water sieve "magically" deleting  heat.

4 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

Yeah no. It's literally the difference between a feature and an exploit. Whether or not it makes sense or is a good gameplay loop is an entirely different conversation.

 

 

Don't know if you caught it or not, but I'm not against removing magic heat deletion. I just want magic heat creations to go out the window with it. If I have to get rid of magic heat, then I don't mind a magic removal process.

Which magical heat creations are you talking about? When a thing consumes energy to perform a task, heat is going to be generated. That's how stuff works. In real life and in this game.

5 hours ago, gotnoface said:

If your aim is to tame volcanoes, most of these are pointless effort, unsuitable as industrial solution or not viable at all, cause they only move heat somewhere else, not remove it entirely. So...

1. You can put your heat-generating buildings above, to the sides, or outside your base.
2. You can locally cool problem areas with an ice-E fan, or wheezewart.  Or thermoregulator. 
3. You can set up a radiator system to move heat from a large area with an aquatuner.
4. You can set up a free-flow system (i.e. pouring cold water onto a hot floor).
5. You can eliminate heat with a steam turbine.
6. Or by venting to space.
7. Or by using an AETN. - not powerful enough, same as wheezes and ultimately not scaleable up size, cause you get max 3 of them
8. Or by using wheezewarts.
9. You can use counter-current designs to transfer heat without using an aquatuner. I do this in most of my industrial designs for productivity, but this is juct moving heat around, not taking care of it
10. You can use insulated tiles (or vacuum) to isolate heat until you want to work with it. Again, just storing/moving heat not getting rid of it.

Your playstyle is not my playstyle. I no longer want to just survive that goal is trivial. I want to thrive, in the most megalomaniac way possible.

Your play style doesn't fit the theme and nature of this game. Never fear my friend, just create your own mod to mod the game however you like. Leave the base game for people to solve the problems presented, and not fruitless, dangerous and pointless tasks like taming volcanoes.

[Logicsol]

17 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

Bah, I didn't explain meself correctly. And also totally forgot what I was talking about. 

I meant the exploit of quickly changing crude oil to nat gas by rapidly overheating it and skipping the petrol stage. 

That's basically how sublimation works however.  Plus, and I could be wrong here, but didn't that not actually "bypass" the Petrol stage but rather relied on having enough extra energy that the small mass of petrol was pushed to it's vapor point within ticks of converting from crude?

It's certainly improved as a gameplay loop with sour gas in, but that's really a design flaw rather than a bug. It's not like the heat was getting applied multiple times ala a reverse drip cooling bug, just a transition that was too easily achieved.

[mathmanican]

Spoiler

2 hours ago, gotnoface said:

I just want more variety of solutions.

With liquid duplication and matter conversion, you open up a HUGE variety of solutions. There are tons of ways to enable them. 

2 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

If you want to survive, you have to use it.

I disagree.

Try matter conversion (avoid liquid duplication) and see what you can come up with. 

27 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

Making the game do literally what the game logic says will happen isn't an exploit

Matter conversion is a game mechanic that was introduced to get rid of mass loss. People complained that electrolyzers were deleting mass, so the devs came up with the following numerical solution to a fringe case issue. When two gasses race towards vacuum, one wins (which - the one on top).  That's the intended game mechanics in ONI (for now).  It may change someday, but for now it's a real solution that specifically has the game do literally what the game logic says will happen.

By the way @Ipsquiggle, @JoeW, and any other dev who cares, here's one possible solution to address matter conversion.  Rather than have the game always choose the top gas to be the one that wins, what if instead the game selects the winning gas at random (maybe weighting the choice based on mass of the interacting gasses).  Then players cannot 100% guarantee which gas will win, which will break any machine design to "exploit" this mechanic.  Mass will be preserved.  If the RNG weights the choice based on mass, then the expected mass should be close to the exact mass.  This will require a random number call for each instance where this occurs, but hopefully that won't kill FPS.

I'll move this suggestion over the correct forum, as well as leave it here.  

 

[Dujour]

1 minute ago, Logicsol said:

That's basically how sublimation works however.  Plus, and I could be wrong here, but didn't that not actually "bypass" the Petrol stage but rather relied on having enough extra energy that the small mass of petrol was pushed to it's vapor point within ticks of converting from crude?

It's certainly improved as a gameplay loop with sour gas in, but that's really a design flaw rather than a bug. It's not like the heat was getting applied multiple times ala a reverse drip cooling bug, just a transition that was too easily achieved.

This is an interesting discussion. Doesn't really, when you get down to it, state changes in matter don't really change instantaneously through states. At the level of interaction between the entities that are setting the rules, it just happens so fast that we observe only the beginning and end state. At some point divide the substance down to a small enough portion at the right place and time, you have a tiny tiny bit of the intermediate state. And it quickly changes to the final state that the energy level demands in a time period too quick to mundane instruments like eye balls and the like. Ticks are those subdivisions of time that literally and figuratively correspond to the small divisions of time that are happening in the real world.

[watermelen671]

9 minutes ago, Logicsol said:

That's basically how sublimation works however.  Plus, and I could be wrong here, but didn't that not actually "bypass" the Petrol stage but rather relied on having enough extra energy that the small mass of petrol was pushed to it's vapor point within ticks of converting from crude?

It's certainly improved as a gameplay loop with sour gas in, but that's really a design flaw rather than a bug. It's not like the heat was getting applied multiple times ala a reverse drip cooling bug, just a transition that was too easily achieved.

I'm just the guy who data mines the game. All I'm doing is going off of what I've seen and "heard". And I don't have the constitution for math so...

What I'm saying is, you're asking the wrong person. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Dujour said:

Some people want to repeat easy mode exploits to deal with a difficult mechanic over and over. 

And there it is. The implication of cheating. Is there any particular reason for you to give a single kitten about how I play my game?

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, nonoxyl said:

And there it is. The implication of cheating. Is there any particular reason for you to give a single kitten about how I play my game?

No...but can I have a kitten anyways?

[Logicsol]

16 minutes ago, Dujour said:

 

Which magical heat creations are you talking about? When a thing consumes energy to perform a task, heat is going to be generated. That's how stuff works. In real life and in this game.

Easy, the water sieve, and any building that has fixed output.

It doesn't add heat relative to the energy consumed, rather it adds an increasingly disportionate amount of heat depending on the temperature difference of it's input.

The exact same mechanic that made it delete heat makes it add heat, often to the tune of the heat output of a dozen coal generators or more.

This is helped in the latest patch by the averaging mechanic they are now using, but it still disproportionately adds heat and penalizes using cooler inputs, as the colder the input, the more heat will be added to it.

[Dujour]

Just now, nonoxyl said:

And there it is. The implication of cheating. Is there any particular reason for you to give a single kitten about how I play my game?

You attacked people who want to play a sensical game, calling it a repeat of building the same system over and over (BORING). And you object to me saying the converse is also true, that you enjoy exploiting the mechanics of the game to make the outcome more positive for you? You want to insult other people's play styles but feel attacked if I return the favor?

No one implied you were cheating, I explicitly said you are exploiting a broken game mechanic. The mechanic was broken because it didn't make sense in the fundamental rule structure of the ONI universe. You took advantage of it. You are not some dishonorable thug who cheated his way through life, you just exploited a broken game mechanic. 

But it was broken. And you did exploit that brokenness. 

[Logicsol]

12 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

And there it is. The implication of cheating. Is there any particular reason for you to give a single kitten about how I play my game?

I mean, yeah actually. Gaming is kinda of a social activity, so even in single player games cheating, or the perception of it, affects interactions between different players. There is a reason that just about every game has a purist community that revolves around playing it unmodded.

Ever spend hours or more completing/creation something complex in a game only to have another player downplay it because they used an exploit to clear it/bypass the challenge?

But that aside, because it's honestly less important that the other reason: Because the insistence of some players to leave in broken mechanics does directly affect how I play the game, because it can influence developer decisions. I don't care if people mod those back in or even mod out a challenging mechanic completely, but the base game is what sets player expectations, and that directly affects enjoyment.

There are of course solutions that can make both parties happier, but they all involve more work. I'd rather the devs focus on getting it right.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dujour said:

  1 hour ago, nonoxyl said:

And there it is. The implication of cheating. Is there any particular reason for you to give a single kitten about how I play my game?

Apologies. That's not where this should go. Nothing productive about that statement.

[Xuhybrid]

6 hours ago, gotnoface said:

@Kangaax Despite how sour I am about it, that is true...

But you can't also disagree, that they picked teh wrong time to alter one of the most controversive systems. Some rant is warranted.

Edit:

@KittenIsAGeek Once again you argument about survivability. What you argue about is completely irrelevant to my claim. In the first place that was never a theme of my problem with the current state of the game. It's the variety - it just doesn't suffice.

Edit: You can disagree with my point of view all you like, it won't change the "physical" amount of heat solutions that are present in the game.

It's not the wrong time. In fact that's the perfect time to get it right. Also, you forget that if these devices aren't clamping it to 40C, then it's also not raising the temperature, therefore reducing the need for cooling. I can't disagree that some other form of cooling would be nice. When you have several 1 star cooling devices and then a 5 star turbine, it's obvious what the choice is.

[Dosephshih]

2 hours ago, Logicsol said:

There are of course solutions that can make both parties happier, but they all involve more work. I'd rather the devs focus on getting it right.

Second your idea. I take some time to think of a simple solution for both group of players.

For Ice & E-fan design, obviously the dupe time is too costly.

For turbine, it is near the mid-late game solution and complicated to build. (i dont really like to build since it would need to seal off a space and cannot be opened again)

So, how about having a in between stage machine, e.g. Electrical E-fan, you just need to provide the ice to the fan, and no need the dupes to do the stupid work. And it should be able to cool a slightly larger area. (i think the current E-fan is not match with the technology level of the game)

Someone mention a air-conditioner in other post, I agree for that but i think it may need more work and may not be designed shortly. And it would need a gas input + output, liquid input + output for coolant.

[goboking]

7 minutes ago, Dosephshih said:

Someone mention a air-conditioner in other post, I agree for that but i think it may need more work and may not be designed shortly. And it would need a gas input + output, liquid input + output for coolant.

I'm no HVAC specialist, but isn't that essentially what the thermo regulator is?  Sure, there's no liquid coolant system, but it's not hard to pipe coolant through the tiles the regulator sits on or through a radiator running behind it.