New Wheezewort

[tseitsei]

1 minute ago, bobucles said:

5kDTUs is not primary cooling. Even after considerable effort, setting up a room for 12kDTUs is still not primary cooling. It's nice, but handy for spot cooling, but it's nowhere near enough cooling for any serious level of heat.

One of the most effective uses of worts was to cool down electrolyzers, and that setup only needs 60kDTUs to be good.

At least for me my industrial block was the only thing that needed more powerful cooling than wheezeworts could reasonably provide.

You could easily cool your whole core base with wheezeworts including electrolyzer output and steam condensing for cool steam vents so I would say it was pretty significant method of cooling especially considering that it was completely free

[bobucles]

2 minutes ago, tseitsei said:

You could easily cool your whole core base with wheezeworts

Of course it's easy to cool a core base. Nothing in the core base generates heat! Beds don't. Furniture doesn't. Mess halls don't. Ranching doesn't. Doors don't. Literally the only source of heat in a core base comes from the grill. It's no wonder cooling is simple.

[metallichydra]

well, atleast wheezeworts are more space-efficient now, than before, since they can be planted in plant-tiles

*farm tiles

[tseitsei]

7 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Of course it's easy to cool a core base. Nothing in the core base generates heat! Beds don't. Furniture doesn't. Mess halls don't. Ranching doesn't. Doors don't. Literally the only source of heat in a core base comes from the grill. It's no wonder cooling is simple.

Did you miss the part where I said that you can actually tame a cool steam vent with only wheezewort cooling (both condensing the steam to water and cooling electrolyzer output to normal room temperatures)? That is something that is not so trivial to do early game without wheezeworts.

[Junksteel]

Just now, tseitsei said:

Did you miss the part where I said that you can actually tame a cool steam vent with only wheezewort cooling (both condensing the steam to water and cooling electrolyzer output to normal room temperatures)? That is something that is not so trivial to do early game without wheezeworts.

Now it's impossible. Well played.

[tseitsei]

Just now, Junksteel said:

Now it's impossible. Well played.

Well we have ice makers and we still have wheezeworts (at least once the domesticated numbers get fixed) those just need some dupe interaction every few cycles. So no, it is not impossible. Plus early game you could also use cold biomes as heatsinks before getting better cooling

[bobucles]

23 minutes ago, tseitsei said:

Did you miss the part where I said that you can actually tame a cool steam vent with only wheezewort cooling (both condensing the steam to water and cooling electrolyzer output to normal room temperatures)? That is something that is not so trivial to do early game without wheezeworts.

Yes I did miss it, because cooling a steam vent with worts is a thing that never happened. Want to know how I know it never happened? Because cooling 1000g/s of 150C steam down to 100C requires over 17 hydrogen worts.

[Gurgel]

12 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Yes I did miss it, because cooling a steam vent with worts is a thing that never happened. Want to know how I know it never happened? Because cooling 1000g/s of 150C steam down to 100C requires over 17 hydrogen worts.

Funny, I did it time and again. I must have been delusional when I saw it working quite well. Also, it is 110C and for the average steam geyser you end up with something like 8-12 WWs.   

[tseitsei]

18 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Yes I did miss it, because cooling a steam vent with worts is a thing that never happened. Want to know how I know it never happened? Because cooling 1000g/s of 150C steam down to 100C requires over 17 hydrogen worts.

Yeah but cool steam vent outputs at 110C and not 150C

[nakomaru]

I can see these threads continuing until the end of time. Klei make it stop!

[Junksteel]

1 hour ago, tseitsei said:

Well we have ice makers and we still have wheezeworts (at least once the domesticated numbers get fixed) those just need some dupe interaction every few cycles. So no, it is not impossible. Plus early game you could also use cold biomes as heatsinks before getting better cooling

It isn't impossible to make cooling. It's just harder and later in the game. Taming a cool steam vent takes much more effort now, but all doable. I feel like cooling in general is now a progressive problem you need to encounter with proper powerful tools (or opening space) later while almost completely ignoring it in the early/mid game through ice biomes for example as you mentioned. I liked the exploration of the map looking for worts, so they weren't all that free as if they spawned in your ration box from the beggining. Now I don't push exploration at all as there is nothing unique/good enough to be found far except for the geysers and you don't need more than 1 or 2 in that stage of the game. I felt worts added value to the run, being critical enough to appreciate if you had luck or not.

I understand those that enjoy more of the industrial aspect of the game and are happy with the change. I don't, because reasons!

I feel like with so many different asteroids to choose they could pretty well remove worts from some of them instead of making them awfull for all. It would enhance the depth of the game and it would be totally up to the player to pick which kind of adventure to go through. More variety of gameplay in different enviroments and self imposed challenges determined in large amount for the asteroid choice.

I mean, those who liked the changes are happy having to fertilize them? Or really glad they kinda do nothing now? Worts lost value for everyone as a tool in the game and it's nothing like heat management is more complex or fun now. It's the same, but with less tools available to deal with. Throwing stuff into space or venting all trash with provisory pipes to the neighboor were options you had instead of looking for coolers. Now everyone kinda need to do this path every run? And build a steam turbine on top? Why?

[Gurgel]

4 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

 Now everyone kinda need to do this path every run? And build a steam turbine on top? Why?

I have to admit I am pretty much stumped regarding the reasoning behind these changes. All they seem to do is make the game artificially longer. But there is absolutely no reason to do that, this is already a game were even a "speedrun" will take very long.

There is no also way to make the "catastrophe" phase much longer. You pretty much get your base to stability or know how to get it there no later than cycle 200 or so and may be there much sooner. After that, it is about what kind of industrial things you want to do, it is not about being pushed by one type of impending doom or another. That is entirely fine as it is. 

Hence I have absolutely no idea what they are trying to do. It cannot be (or at least I hope it is not) catering to the "purist" faction, because while they are loud and insistent, they are a minority. Optimizing for that faction has ruined a lot of games in the past and Klei should be aware of that. Sure, giving a set of specific options for that faction to use (and for everybody else to ignore) is entirely fine, but changing the whole thing according to their wishes is something else and a pretty bad idea if you need to sell this thing. It certainly is not about making the game more casual, because the changes point into an entirely different direction. It cannot be about making gameplay more varied, because they have pretty much done the direct opposite for cooling.

This really is a mystery. Personally, I think they should shift the release for another 2 months or so. The current changes are just not ready for prime-time and I do not see them getting there in the 12 days left. 

[Sasza22]

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

And how do you know that?

Beacause it`s limited. You only get so many. You can argue you can get them from space but that`s not early game. The wheezewort was super easy to set up and cooled for free. It screams early tech.

People made complicated designs around it, true. Maybe the devs didn`t intend it to be the main cooling method. Like some people didn`t ever use aquatuners beacause worts were so good.

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I am really getting tired of this "you are using it wrong" nonsense. 

I`m not saying it was wrong. I`m saying it still can be used, just not like before. And you are all taking calling it wortless. It`s still heat removal despite being really weak.

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

 I am now wondering whether the destruction of WW usefulness is not intentional.

I`m thinking the same actually. But i think they want to force us to use other ways of heat removal to see how they work out on new maps. The more desperate we get the weirder exploits we find (see the "chill pill"). Maybe they plan to buff it after release when they are done with "testing" their community.

[Nitroturtle]

10 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I have to admit I am pretty much stumped regarding the reasoning behind these changes. All they seem to do is make the game artificially longer. But there is absolutely no reason to do that, this is already a game were even a "speedrun" will take very long.

There is no also way to make the "catastrophe" phase much longer. You pretty much get your base to stability or know how to get it there no later than cycle 200 or so and may be there much sooner. After that, it is about what kind of industrial things you want to do, it is not about being pushed by one type of impending doom or another. That is entirely fine as it is. 

Hence I have absolutely no idea what they are trying to do. It cannot be (or at least I hope it is not) catering to the "purist" faction, because while they are loud and insistent, they are a minority. Optimizing for that faction has ruined a lot of games in the past and Klei should be aware of that. Sure, giving a set of specific options for that faction to use (and for everybody else to ignore) is entirely fine, but changing the whole thing according to their wishes is something else and a pretty bad idea if you need to sell this thing. It certainly is not about making the game more casual, because the changes point into an entirely different direction. It cannot be about making gameplay more varied, because they have pretty much done the direct opposite for cooling.

This really is a mystery. Personally, I think they should shift the release for another 2 months or so. The current changes are just not ready for prime-time and I do not see them getting there in the 12 days left. 

The developer/player disconnect has always bothered me with this game.  I wish they were more transparent with their intentions, as I feel it would really help us give better feedback if we knew what they were going for with some of the changes.  As it stands, we often don't even get details in patch notes, but instead get vague notes about changes that then someone has to go test.

If they had come out and said, "We feel like wheezeworts are too powerful given they are absolutely free cooling, so we are going to add a small cost and see how it plays out".  Then we could see what they are trying to do and provide feedback specifically about the power of WW and their place in the game along other cooling solutions.  But as it stands, I have no idea what their intentions are here and can only assume.  Maybe they felt the new Ice-E fan was being neglected because WW were the better option, but didn't considering the implications of their changes on later game cooling methods

What doesn't make sense to me is that if you rank cooling options on a scale of 1 to 10, you have a couple early game options that are maybe a 1 or 2 (ice/ww) and then a mid-late game option that's a 9 or 10 (steam turbine).  Sure, there's a lot of options for dealing with the heat by moving it around or trying to destroy it via machine consumption, but I think the big take-away from everything I've read is that our middle of the road option for cooling (wheezeworts) was taken down a notch with nothing added to replace that role.

[Gurgel]

1 minute ago, Sasza22 said:

I`m thinking the same actually. But i think they want to force us to use other ways of heat removal to see how they work out on new maps. The more desperate we get the weirder exploits we find (see the "chill pill"). Maybe they plan to buff it after release when they are done with "testing" their community.

In the sense of "put on the screws and see when people start to scream"? That does make sense. It comes with some huge risks though. Still sounds like the most plausible option to me at this time.

[Junksteel]

13 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Hence I have absolutely no idea what they are trying to do. 

Selling the Icefrost DLC. 

Jokes apart, I think they are just experimenting with mechanics and doing some balance with good intentions. They added some amazing stuff in the final moments and it's awesome they had the care to do so. It's just the case that some of the things they changed to accomodate new stuff seem not that enjoyable for everyone. I have to agree with you about the cooling issue as they just nerfed the salt water geyser to 95C too. I'm personally upset about worts because I liked them but truely concerned for those who will experience the game for the first time with an ice machine and steam turbines. Heat management is boring (in my opinion) and takes some time to be mastered. Reducing the tools and nerfing everything will make that learning curve more relentless from Terra to Oceania and I see no reason for that.

[mathmanican]

9 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

"testing" their community.

Haha.  So the final launch testing is not about "testing the game" but about "testing" the community.   

[Junksteel]

13 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I`m thinking the same actually. But i think they want to force us to use other ways of heat removal to see how they work out on new maps. The more desperate we get the weirder exploits we find (see the "chill pill"). 

I built the more compact version from Saturnus last night and it's a monster. In fact, it was so effective that I started another map today. It's not my thing, but I really hope people reproduce that to hell in order to get the issue addressed. 

[Darkin Coaled]

58 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Yes I did miss it, because cooling a steam vent with worts is a thing that never happened. Want to know how I know it never happened? Because cooling 1000g/s of 150C steam down to 100C requires over 17 hydrogen worts.

Erupting   4,317  228,226 (20)

Per Eruption Cycle   2,426  128,234 (11)

Per Activity Cycle    1,622  85,761 (8)

 

My last map vent as remembered by oni-assistant. Unfortunately I can't quote the current one and assistant only remembers the previous session for some reason.

The numbers at the end in parentheses are the rough number of wheezers needed to cool that down. It's quite a few and you need to luck out on nearby biomes to get that kind of cooling but I know I did it at least once.

[thewreckedangle]

ww come from the printer too. got 3 almost in a row it seemed (last night?) i didnt notice they had a nerf or whatever as they seemed to still cool the batteries and water sieve *shrug*

[Junksteel]

4 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:

ww come from the printer too. got 3 almost in a row it seemed (last night?) i didnt notice they had a nerf or whatever as they seemed to still cool the batteries and water sieve *shrug*

You planted them wild or farm tile?

[thewreckedangle]

in the free-standing pot (i forget its exact name at this moment..uhh the one that isnt the one they walk over)

[Junksteel]

Just now, thewreckedangle said:

in the free standing pot

You're playing the live version most likely. The nerfs are in the preview branch for release.

[Lilalaunekuh]

Is it just me or would someone else argue for a limit amount of wheezeworts like it was before care packages and plantes with wheezeworts to bring back ?

=> It was a main motivation for me to keep exploring in the "mid game" and came always with the trade-off that I could destroy/melt the ice biome.

[Make balm lillies compostable and wheezeworts uncompostable^^]

[BaloneyOs]

17 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

Even if it was 0.0001g/cycle, it would still take time to execute and make it not work sealed.

It's not like phosphorite is a limiting resource.

Seems like intentionally a forever problem. Though I think lettuce has been well balanced for some time now, whatever farm tile you use will only allow up to around 1 kg (?) of bleach stone meaning more delivery trips. Dunno how much phosphorite one WW planter can hold but I'm guessing not much either, considering all the complaints.

Additionally, the more trips dupes have to make due to uh, "low storage capacity", the more pronounced this game's AI problems become. Bad AI should not be a cost but unfortunately right now it has exponentially negative impacts on labor costs as you expand.