Willow Refresh Info and Roadmap Schedule Update

[Mr.Mulk]

People seem to really be misunderstanding the reasons for wanting fire immunity.

To sum it up, most people I've talked to, as well as myself want it because:

• It was a perk that previously existed and was removed for questionable reasons (with little impact solving the issue), and has no reason to not be added back
• It's an integral piece of what made DS Willow, well, Willow
• It's a springboard for Klei to consider other unique mechanics and perks off of
• It's neither OP nor insignificant, it just brings some new, honestly refreshing strats to the combat system in the game, which at this point boils down to "hold f for a certain number of hits and run away until enemy is dead"
• It's not a particularly good argument but it is important to note adding fire immunity would be easier than some convoluted Fire Resistance mechanics

Most of the arguments I've heard against it aren't exactly solvent:

• It's too OP. If this is the case please show me how it's too OP, because I haven't seen it. Also if it truly is this incredible overpowered perk than people must go out of their way to get scalemail, which I haven't seen evidence of. Also this game has Wolfgang, Wicker, and WX in it (and yes I'm aware they're getting reworks as well, however the point still stands)
• It's insignificant, why bother readding it? This is simply not true. It's not the most amazing perk ever, but it does add some unique strategies to the combat system which can be utilized more efficiently.
  • Also if it's so insignificant why not bother adding it, it's easier to code than Fire Resistance so it's the path of least resistance
• It doesn't fit Willow's character. Really? The pyromaniac? Fire Immunity makes complete sense and is already a thing in her DS incarnation
  • "Well it's just not realistic" See Webber. It's a video game, it's not supposed to be perfectly realistic. If realism was what they were going for then there's a lot of stuff that needs to be changed
• Klei shouldn't waste time on it and instead focus on other perks: Perks are not inherently a zero sum game. The addition of fire immunity does not mean the loss of potentially another perk. That's a failure to account for how weighting works in balance.
• Why don't you just take the rework you've been given and not be ungrateful? It is far from ungrateful to critique a product I paid money for, and not ungrateful to request Klei add something to the game. They retain the right to choose to listen to the community or not listen, and will reap the consequences of that decision.
  • A variation of this is Why don't we just focus on the positives? I've already mentioned that there's some great stuff they've been doing, but not every decision they make is great, and it's completely ok to critique that when it happens.
• The community is acting immature and doesn't deserve it. This is an entirely different subject separate from the purposes of a rework. I cannot speak for those beyond what I've said, however I've done my best to maintain professionalism and courtesy. There is no reason we cannot have an open discussion on this subject.
  • Anyways, the primary goal is for a good rework to happen. Imagine if there was a character given a really terrible rebalance, and the community knew of a solution, but requested it in the worst way possible. Should the solution not be applied? Of course it should still be applied! The point is getting the best rebalance possible.
  • Also I haven't seen much better behavior from the small, but extremely vocal "anti-fire immunity" crowd, just something to point out

[Nebulaemon]

On 4/25/2019 at 6:23 PM, JoeW said:

NOTE: As long time fans are aware, we do not prioritize dates above content or the team, so dates are always subject to change.

This makes me really happy. Crunch culture in video game development is on the rise and from recent events its clear something needs to be done, and honestly a lot of the content that comes out of it is terrible anyways! No point! I'd rather wait months for a willow update and animation made by an happy, healthy devs then days for those things made by folk who are super stressed & super underpaid. That stuff always kills companies, eventually.

(though "Happy, healthy devs" sounds like I'm advertising a game developer adoption center. Get one 3d modeler, get two free? Whatever...)

Also, theory time: is that Willow's oft spoken of grandmother, or an orphanage worker?

Spoiler

 

[Nikki Darks]

6 hours ago, Kaira said:

Read around for a bit, had another lil ol thought. Im not sure if this, uh, fits in with Klei's plans but I thought it sounded kinda neat:

Insanity fires! Like, not fires while insane but actual figments of her broken mental state. o w o
When insane, she'd spawn fake fires like.. mm this might be hard to code.. - fires similar to her past iterations when insane. These fires behave like typical, heating and spreading, but they won't actually burn down structures or items. Sane players either dont see the fires or see them as a small beacon like a warm stone (may or may not provide light) but other low sanity players can see and be effected by the ghost fires.

The world's burning down around her òwó

That actually sounds VERY badass!

[EveryMansFool]

6 hours ago, Kaira said:

Read around for a bit, had another lil ol thought. Im not sure if this, uh, fits in with Klei's plans but I thought it sounded kinda neat:

Insanity fires! Like, not fires while insane but actual figments of her broken mental state. o w o
When insane, she'd spawn fake fires like.. mm this might be hard to code.. - fires similar to her past iterations when insane. These fires behave like typical, heating and spreading, but they won't actually burn down structures or items. Sane players either dont see the fires or see them as a small beacon like a warm stone (may or may not provide light) but other low sanity players can see and be effected by the ghost fires.

The world's burning down around her òwó

This made me think of a slightly different idea:

What if when Willow is insane everything looks like it's eternally on fire? The issue is that she wouldn't be able to tell the fake fires from the real until the real fires burnt out. Therefore it would also make lighting fires to get your sanity up a little bit more risky. 

I think it's feasible because we can already see creatures and objects in different states when one character is insane vs. when another player isn't. It could cause lag issues for some player, though. And I have no idea what would happen to the fires when it becomes night. (But it could be cool if they did provide light through the night! Idk about balance but Winona and Wortox scoff at balance and they're already reworked.)

It's not really a very interesting multiplayer mechanic, though.

[Palecwsmalec1]

i usually just play willow for her quotes and absolutely nothing else so this isn't much of a concern to me

however i do like the idea of being able to put out fires with just yer hands

then again you can easily just do that with a singular piece of ice so the usefulness of this is debatable

now i patiently wait for the lore and cross my fingers for all you willow mains out there

[fimmatek]

4 hours ago, Palecwsmalec1 said:

however i do like the idea of being able to put out fires with just yer hands

then again you can easily just do that with a singular piece of ice so the usefulness of this is debatable

I think this perk would be useful. Very situational, but useful. You might not always have ice at hand when something starts to burn. Also, you can win precious time if you don't have to run to the fridge, in that time the fire could have spread so much that you can't keep extinguishing it.

Again, this would be situational imo, but very welcome on most public servers, especially in the first seasons.

[FreyaMaluk]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:35 AM, Mr.Mulk said:

Like I'm not trying to be some sort of Contrarian but I really don't think these perks are effecting anyone but absolute noob players.

I'm honestly a little let down, after Wagstaff I had my hopes up for something really unique for her that affects all levels of gameplay, not just beginner players or earlygame.

At best the current perks are completely bland and only help beginners (and only them for the earlygame)

I wanted something unique, something along the lines of powerful, like inventory burning in Don't Starve.
Not just a list of minor perks that won't help anyone who's played the game for more than a few hours.

Burning inventory is not gonna happen. Why? Cuz it already happened in DST. You could give burning inventory to other people and kill them. That's f-ed up. Even for experienced players. That's why they removed it. 

Again you haven't realized the coop aspect at all. Regardless of reasons. 

[MondayNight]

4 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

You could give burning inventory to other people and kill them. That's f-ed up. Even for experienced players. That's why they removed it.

Didn't knew that. Must've been some pretty TROLOLOL times when beta DST was fresh on the block

[Nikki Darks]

4 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Burning inventory is not gonna happen. Why? Cuz it already happened in DST. You could give burning inventory to other people and kill them. That's f-ed up. Even for experienced players. That's why they removed it. 

Again you haven't realized the coop aspect at all. Regardless of reasons. 

Trolling should not be taken into consideration, ever. Because how many times can I say it, "On Tentacles", package up some killer bees into a bundling wrap, gnaw a base as werebeaver... Inventory burning is very useful and they can easily make it so that it can't damage players outside of pvp.

[Mr.Mulk]

5 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Burning inventory is not gonna happen. Why? Cuz it already happened in DST. You could give burning inventory to other people and kill them. That's f-ed up. Even for experienced players. That's why they removed it. 

First off, I don't recall my previous post being about inventory burning. This entire thing seems like a red herring (not to mention a repeat) but I'll humor it.

Second, you do realize perks can be adjusted to be made less griefer friendly right? I haven't suggested since the roadmap came out that they don't adjust the perk to be balanced to quell potential griefing. I wouldn't want them to just take inventory burning and plop it down into the game from DS (even though it'd be hilarious). My entire argument isn't that they take it in raw form, it's been since the roadmap that they take it, refine it, and then put it back in the game.

Because it's been used with griefing in the past does not make it a bad perk, it merely needs a touch of refinement. Also balancing characters around griefing is a questionable decision at best. It has a habit of ruining characters and doesn't normally pan out.

5 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Again you haven't realized the coop aspect at all. Regardless of reasons. 

Is it time for round 2? Alright.
As previously stated the best way to balance characters is to focus on them from a solo perspective before coming up with multiplayer considerations? Why? Because:

• Characters that are fun and interesting in solo play are also some of the best characters for co-op
  • IE Wolfgang or WX is great for a team, despite having solely self-focused perks
• People don't always have immediate access to other players, so balancing a character foremost around a multiplayer setting makes them less fun/locks content away from them, which is wrong.

And furthermore, who are you to tell me what I've considered? That seems like a pretty major assumption, and it's not even true. I have been considering the multiplayer aspect of the game, I just recognize that building a good character in singleplayer DST is paramount to that process.

[Deerclops Mika]

Is this only for Don't starve together? 

[_Ellat_]

On 30.04.2019 at 9:11 PM, Irvanz said:

All off this kind of thing is good but yeah there is no special perk that make Willow Stand out  from other and for fire immunity my answer is No

Why?

[WoodieMain45684]

I was thinking of a cool perk for willow. What if, whenever she hits an enemy with a lighter, it gives the creature a temporary debuff called "scalding". It could be similar to armor break in the forge and allow your friends and yourself to do more damage to opponents. (note that this is not to replace fire immunity; its just a cool team based perk) If willow doesn't get this ability, it would be cool to eventually see someone get an ability like this (increased team damage/mark for death)... Possibly Wigfrid?

 

[FreyaMaluk]

16 hours ago, WoodieMain45684 said:

I was thinking of a cool perk for willow. What if, whenever she hits an enemy with a lighter, it gives the creature a temporary debuff called "scalding". It could be similar to armor break in the forge and allow your friends and yourself to do more damage to opponents. (note that this is not to replace fire immunity; its just a cool team based perk) If willow doesn't get this ability, it would be cool to eventually see someone get an ability like this (increased team damage/mark for death)... Possibly Wigfrid?

 

This is actually an intelligent proposal for a coop stat based on fire. 

[-Variant]

10 hours ago, Deerclops Mika said:

Is this only for Don't starve together? 

The rework? Yes.

Only DST characters are being reworked. All of them.

Inventory burning currently is only in DS, not DST however.

[Jayfeather345]

10 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

• Characters that are fun and interesting in solo play are also some of the best characters for co-op
  • IE Wolfgang or WX is great for a team, despite having solely self-focused perks
• People don't always have immediate access to other players, so balancing a character foremost around a multiplayer setting makes them less fun/locks content away from them, which is wrong.

I mostly agree on this. What I propose as a sort of middle-ground is something much in the way of Wortox's healing perk, where, while it can be used for yourself alone it can also benefit other players as well if you choose to do so (at the cost of some of that benefit to yourself).
So maybe something like you give off heat in the winter and the more players close to you the less heat you give off or something like that (I don't know I'm just spit-balling, but you get the main idea).

 

1 hour ago, WoodieMain45684 said:

I was thinking of a cool perk for willow. What if, whenever she hits an enemy with a lighter, it gives the creature a temporary debuff called "scalding". It could be similar to armor break in the forge and allow your friends and yourself to do more damage to opponents.

This is also a good idea for something like what I'm saying, only maybe the more players the less an impact of this effect somehow?

[Irvanz]

This guy have a point there, And my comment like throwing can in a trash dump

Willow it's very fun to play at single player all theories and fact he give very snaps on point for single player
i look around for counter argument for grieving but all that i got is just mehh....

Quote

"It encourages Griefing!"
How. Just.... How. Anyone can make a torch (which is dirt easy to craft), not to mention the fact that Wickerbottom is the best "griefer" character with her books. Griefers dont just stand in the middle of fire and let themselves die. This is a very bottom-of-the-barrel argumen

I Dissagree because “Its Encourages Griefing”

Did you know that wickerbottom ability,Webber ability and willow fire immunity have same familiar thing.Did you get it? No?

 

Its like Double edged Sword. Did you get it?

 

If you know how to use it you can use it for positive thing or negative thing.

• Wickerbottom can make tentacle book but everyone cant, it need times to make it and the tentacle will attack other people but also will attack herself.

• Webber can place spider whatever he want and spider friendly to him, but not to other people (until wrong punch come and regret)

You can see type people that greifing with this character.

And here Willow she just cant.....just cant get burn after all,but all other people can burn, did you get it? Yes !!? Congratulations your skill griefing its so nasty

oooh you dont get it?

So from recent character rework please tell me:

How to abuse Wortox Soul hop and Soul heal to other people?

How to abuse Winona Catapult and fast crafting to other people?

How to abuse Willow Fire immunity to other people.

 

i just like this one for willow ability:

"We can fight mob at ring of fire without getting burn"

or, we can.

"Ask your friend or noob to some place that will end up like ring of fire. you can see them panic burn to death and rage quit, when you are  "can't burn" cause fire immunity and just spaming /dance"

 

Next Forest fire

 

Go google how dangerous is forest fire?

 

"Danger levels forest fire. Given that only 10 percent of forest fires have a natural cause (lightning), it can be assumed that 90 percent of such fires are caused by inappropriate human behaviour (discarding glowing cigarette butts, barbecue fires that are not completely extinguished etc.)"

 

And how dangerous is forest fire fighting?

 

"More than 170 wildland firefighters died between 2007 and 2016. That's slightly less than previous decades, despite more acres burning, according (pdf) to the National Wildlife Coordinating Group. The majority of those deaths were the result of vehicle and aircraft accidents (38%), heart attacks (24%), and fire (17%)."

 

Ladies and gentleman how about this can related to griefer in dont starve TOGETHER tell me....

Quote

"Some time its just seed burned. another time its Tree Burned,Recently its Sapling burned and Then berry bush NOW Entire Base IN FIRE AND SOMEBODY DIED !!!!!!!"

"WILLOW FIRE IMMUNITY ENCOURAGES TO MORE BURNING, BECAUSE THERE IS NO PENALTY TO DOIT"

 

You spawn at Winter time around Forest as a Willow with Lighter and better "Its Fire IM.. IM.. IMMUNITY"  gotta go reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[FreyaMaluk]

23 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

First off, I don't recall my previous post being about inventory burning. This entire thing seems like a red herring (not to mention a repeat) but I'll humor it.

Second, you do realize perks can be adjusted to be made less griefer friendly right? I haven't suggested since the roadmap came out that they don't adjust the perk to be balanced to quell potential griefing. I wouldn't want them to just take inventory burning and plop it down into the game from DS (even though it'd be hilarious). My entire argument isn't that they take it in raw form, it's been since the roadmap that they take it, refine it, and then put it back in the game.

Because it's been used with griefing in the past does not make it a bad perk, it merely needs a touch of refinement. Also balancing characters around griefing is a questionable decision at best. It has a habit of ruining characters and doesn't normally pan out.

Is it time for round 2? Alright.
As previously stated the best way to balance characters is to focus on them from a solo perspective before coming up with multiplayer considerations? Why? Because:

• Characters that are fun and interesting in solo play are also some of the best characters for co-op
  • IE Wolfgang or WX is great for a team, despite having solely self-focused perks
• People don't always have immediate access to other players, so balancing a character foremost around a multiplayer setting makes them less fun/locks content away from them, which is wrong.

And furthermore, who are you to tell me what I've considered? That seems like a pretty major assumption, and it's not even true. I have been considering the multiplayer aspect of the game, I just recognize that building a good character in singleplayer DST is paramount to that process.

It's funny when people contradict themselves...

here is what you said about inventory burning before... never mentioned the potential that could have on others players cuz you clearly don't care and/or play solo

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/105367-willow-refresh-info-and-roadmap-schedule-update/?do=findComment&comment=1184919

Quote

I wanted something unique, something along the lines of powerful, like inventory burning in Don't Starve.

No mention of balancing... just "gimme power pls"

later u changed cuz probably people pointed out to you the same thing I said in the first place... 

Quote

I used to take a really hard stance that I wanted inventory burning in its purest form from DS, but I've taken some time to reflect on the subject and honestly I'd prefer it to be altered to be more multiplayer friendly. This would likely mean a fair dps cap (not sure what it'd be that'd be up to Klei) and some proper animations with effects added to make it feel more natural in the flow of the game. I'm ok with its ignition being removed on concerns of it being used for griefing as well, that's fair and makes sense to me. 

you see.. u yourself admitting you agree adjusting things based on CONCERNS AROUND GRIEFING

FIRE is a risk to everyone involved... it's dangerous.. it's not supposed to be trivial and it needs to be balanced around other players cuz DST is a multiplayer game in essence even if you decide to play solo

WX or Wolfgang being strong solo doesn't have ANYTHING to do with fire... their abilities don't affect other players, while a lot of fire tactics do affect combat for everyone involved and it would make Willow fight alone all the time..

Willow could set up a ring of fire and fight alone in there but then other people would be forced to just watch or leave her fighting alone... other characters can't join her if all Willow's abilities are worked around fire... only maybe later if they farm enough scales which realistically speaking doesn't happen ... and if you farm more scales you probably want to use them for scale chests and not an armor just to able to fight alongside Willow

I personally would like something cool for Willow that's fire related, even fire immunity might be cool ... but a COOP BALANCE needs to take place cuz fire is not a joke... same goes for burning inventory... it's necessary that some COOP considerations apply if Klei decide to reintroduce these things back into the game

maybe they could add a monster that attacks Willow if a companion is catching on fire or something like that... something that punishes Willow for being an  a s s  burning people...

she could also extinguish fire from companions at the cost of sanity too. Tbh, I think Willow should have a sanity penalty anyways for putting out all kinds fire in the first place.

[WoodieMain45684]

It's funny how this one topic has gone back and forth so much since the announcement. I wonder if it has affected what Klei's plans are with Willow.

[FreyaMaluk]

Just now, WoodieMain45684 said:

It's funny how this one topic has gone back and forth so much since the announcement. I wonder if it has affected what Klei's plans are with Willow.

there is a poll with some interesting data

 

[WoodieMain45684]

Interesting indeed; it seems most are not quite satisfied with the proposed changes. I hope it doesn't stress out the guys at Klei too much.

 

[FreyaMaluk]

10 minutes ago, WoodieMain45684 said:

Interesting indeed; it seems most are not quite satisfied with the proposed changes. I hope it doesn't stress out the guys at Klei too much.

I think this pretty much answers your question

On 4/26/2019 at 1:08 AM, JoeW said:

I appreciate some of the feedback here but the "this is terrible" posts aren't super helpful. If you don't like something in particular explain why, so we can understand how you feel more. 

Saying "no fire immunity is so lame" doesn't help a lot here. Because she does get fire immunity for a period of time with a reduced damage after that. CURRENTLY it's set at Immunity for 6 second and 50% reduced damage. 

But just saying "this sucks" doesn't help us think about how to address your concerns. 

Thanks. 

[Nikki Darks]

I still don't get why people are so opposed to ADDITIONAL PERKS BEING GIVEN TO A CHARACTER WITH BASICALLY NO PERKS. qx q
 

[Terra_Zina]

7 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

I still don't get why people are so opposed to ADDITIONAL PERKS BEING GIVEN TO A CHARACTER WITH BASICALLY NO PERKS. qx q
 

People hate Willow. Willow is the one to blame when something goes wrong. Willow is the first one to get vote kicked or banned when something catch on fire.

People are afraid too many buffs will make more people pick Willow, causing more bases to catch ablaze. Even though 99% of trolls are Wickerbottoms, people forgive Wickers because she's ACTUALLY usefull by default. Willow is completely useless otherwise, which is why suspicions are raised when a Willow joins a server.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, Terra_Zina said:

People hate Willow. Willow is the one to blame when something goes wrong. Willow is the first one to get vote kicked or banned when something catch on fire.

People are afraid too many buffs will make more people pick Willow, causing more bases to catch ablaze. Even though 99% of trolls are Wickerbottoms, people forgive Wickers because she's ACTUALLY usefull by default. Willow is completely useless otherwise, which is why suspicions are raised when a Willow joins a server.

I kinda agree with that, I haven't seen one good, firm reason behind people being against her getting better perks. Most of them are "Griefing".