New Skills system versus Old Jobs system.

[RonEmpire]

From what I can tell or my understanding so far, the new skills system is better than the previous old system in terms of maintaining the morale low but at the same time continue to earn XP without being forced into choosing a new job.


Before you felt like you had to pick a new job every time you mastered a job tier- to the point where you would max out all the jobs.
The reason you're forced to pick new jobs is because the xp was gained passively.  And so if you're not setting your guy to learn a new job passively you're wasting your potential (missed opportunity as they say).    This ended up creating a morale problem as well. Because you ended up with high morale.  Of course you could always choose not to pick a new job tier that required higher morale but then you're wasting the xp that you could be gaining passively.  Plus the old system, felt a bit unbalanced because eventually your dupes learn everything- because they retained all the skills.


The new skills system, feels more RPG like, you have to spend your skill points wisely- and can't learn everything because morale requirement would end up being too high.    I like the new skills system because you could choose not to take on higher skills   unless you need to -  at the same time you can still earn XP from the things you're doing.

I'm not quite sure how the XP works for Learning though- when you pick scientist.  The only thing that feels like its necessary is taking Research job to get the learning bonus to improve your skill leveling up rate.     That part somehow feels artificial or forced into - and then respect later after you've used the learning points.

[RonEmpire]

nope. haven't tried.

[Skrivener]

2 hours ago, RonEmpire said:

The new skills system, feels more RPG like, you have to spend your skill points wisely- and can't learn everything because morale requirement would end up being too high.    I like the new skills system because you could choose not to take on higher skills   unless you need to -  at the same time you can still earn XP from the things you're doing.

That may be why I don't like it. It feels very gamey and not at all real. Why should a dupe accumulate a hundred XP doing one thing so then they can suddenly be an expert in unrelated things when we decide? It's convenient if you want that but totally illogical. I'll admit though that I have a long-standing game system bias toward gaining experience in what you're doing by doing it or by training, not by random unrelated activities. The latter has never made sense to me and always seems a kludge for lazy game design. If I want to get better at cutting wood I cut wood or I get tips from someone who cuts wood. I don't get better at cutting wood by washing dishes. So I guess to me this change is another step away from the simulation core that I first loved about ONI.

[CodexDraco]

I'm not sure how to feel about the new system. In one hand, you don't need to micromanage exp gain as you pointed out, but on the other hand, it guarantees that you'll never pick up a lot of near useless skills such as improved construction.

2 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Do you know that the morale requirement is now for taking all skills?

I haven't tested it but by my calculations, mastering all non-rockerty skills need 59 morale total. Rocketry skills add another 9 points for a whooping 68 total!

[RonEmpire]

3 minutes ago, CodexDraco said:

I'm not sure how to feel about the new system. In one hand, you don't need to micromanage exp gain as you pointed out, but on the other hand, it guarantees that you'll never pick up a lot of near useless skills such as improved construction.

I haven't tested it but by my calculations, mastering all non-rockerty skills need 59 morale total. Rocketry skills add another 9 points for a whooping 68 total!

obviously,   all your dupes don't need to be an artist or a chef.   so that should help trim it down.    and to some extent once you get to the point of clearing out the entire map, you don't really need miner skills.

though the numbers are a lot higher than the previous requirement.

(I haven't messed with the respect building, so I can't say what's the right way to play right now)

[M.C.]

2 minutes ago, CodexDraco said:

I'm not sure how to feel about the new system. In one hand, you don't need to micromanage exp gain as you pointed out, but on the other hand, it guarantees that you'll never pick up a lot of near useless skills such as improved construction.

I haven't tested it but by my calculations, mastering all non-rockerty skills need 59 morale total. Rocketry skills add another 9 points for a whooping 68 total!

Is it even possible to maintain that kind of morale level for any length of time? My own dupes max out at about 35.

[RonEmpire]

You can always get sunny disposition to help offset the stress.

[goboking]

As someone who has always specialized my dupes, the actual impact of this change on my play style is minimal.  That said, the new system feels a bit gamey to me, and I'm not sure why the jobs system wasn't working in the developers' eyes.  They could have kept the job system and still added a "+morale expectation per mastery" mechanic if they wanted to encourage labor specialization.

[RonEmpire]

14 minutes ago, goboking said:

As someone who has always specialized my dupes, the actual impact of this change on my play style is minimal.  That said, the new system feels a bit gamey to me, and I'm not sure why the jobs system wasn't working in the developers' eyes.  They could have kept the job system and still added a "+morale expectation per mastery" mechanic if they wanted to encourage labor specialization.

they would still have to add in a unlearn / respec system if you kept the old job system.    because if somebody would make a mistake in picking everything, they're stuck with high morale requirements.

[Saturnus]

4 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Do you know that the morale requirement is now for taking all skills?

It's pretty simple. +1 morale requirement for every skill point tier gained.

[CodexDraco]

9 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It's pretty simple. +1 morale requirement for every skill point spent.

I don't think that's true. Looking at the skills screen it appears that higher tier skills increase morale requirements more (first tier, 1 point, second tier 2 points etc). However, it seems to be broken and the morale requirements don't apply consistently.

[Saturnus]

15 minutes ago, CodexDraco said:

I don't think that's true. Looking at the skills screen it appears that higher tier skills increase morale requirements more (first tier, 1 point, second tier 2 points etc). However, it seems to be broken and the morale requirements don't apply consistently.

Don't a 2nd tier also require 2 skill points to be spent?

[SakuraKoi]

4 hours ago, RonEmpire said:

The new skills system, feels more RPG like, you have to spend your skill points wisely- and can't learn everything because morale requirement would end up being too high.

There is actually a Skill Respec Station already~

 

 

[CodexDraco]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Don't a 2nd tier also require 2 skill points to be spent?

Nope.

[RonEmpire]

2 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

There is actually a Skill Respec Station already~

 

Yea I know-  I'm just referring to the other comment about how   the devs didn't need to change to the skills system and could have tweaked the old job system.   And I was saying we would still need a respec jobs option still.

[Saturnus]

26 minutes ago, CodexDraco said:

Nope.

Alright. Corrected the statement to:

It's pretty simple. +1 morale requirement for every skill point tier gained.

27 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

There is actually a Skill Respec Station already~

Commonly already referred to as the lobotomizer.

It just resets your spent skill points so you can immediately choose another skill set and takes about half a cycle to do.

I see it as a great way to exploit the hell out of the skill system.

[Oozinator]

33 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I see it as a great way to exploit the hell out of the skill system.

I am really confused about the new system and why the devs implemented it..
So far i know, there was no big discussion about "old job system broken", or players where unhappy with it?
Two updates before release such a big change..
 

[Saturnus]

10 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

I am really confused about the new system and why the devs implemented it..
So far i know, there was no big discussion about "old job system broken", or players where unhappy with it?
Two updates before release such a big change..

I guess they wanted to shift away from the jack of all trades super dupe meta.

Before you could train your dupes in every single lower tier job to get the skills and ability point bonuses as only the highest tier job counted for the morale requirement.

Now it's the skill point tiers spent that sets the morale requirement. I see this as the right move.

The lobotomizer however, I'm a bit iffy about. I need to play with it some more but I see a great potential for seriously exploiting the system with it. To balance it I think you should definitely lose some skill points maybe even as much as half in the process.

[DMFan79]

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

The lobotomizer however, I'm a bit iffy about. I need to play with it some more but I see a great potential for seriously exploiting the system with it. To balance it I think you should definitely lose some skill points maybe even as much as half in the process.

I'm usually against punishing systems in games, but in this case, losing a little amount of xp could be seen as a proper balancing for this function.

I'm neutral regarding this change. I'm sure this new system will be more appealing for a broader public of gamers since it adds a fun RP mechanic. The previous system was flat and boring, besides, you ended up with all dupes being good at everything.

[Oozinator]

24 minutes ago, DMFan79 said:

The previous system was flat and boring, besides, you ended up with all dupes being good at everything.

Yep was really annoying.
Count dupes - count numbers in job overview (mastered) and move dupes into open jobs / numbers.
It's looking like the new system is not fully implemented, but i hope it's better then the old one.
Visual style / choose hat / is nice, hope it gets not more micro then the old one..

[chemie]

2 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Seems like the new total is 50 moral required for all skills compared to 35 before.

everyone gets exosuit and speed.  then one specialist like dig, deliver, cook, or art.  if that puts you over 25 or 30, many players will struggle or not bother to spec out dups.  I usually have dups around 45 to 52 but there us no way to get past 52 right now.  and if dups NEED more than 45, you could crash your base with a small blip down to 30 due to a single resource issue 

[MorsDux]

7 hours ago, M.C. said:

Is it even possible to maintain that kind of morale level for any length of time? My own dupes max out at about 35.

My usual cap is around 45-46 or so. Needs pepper bread/barbeque and the extra 3 points from showering. Coffee also helps. 50 is viable with maxing out everything you might need extra downtime allocation for the dupes to be able to use the coffee machine etc. All the time. Its very funny you might need 4-5 coffee machines etc for it to be consistent. 

[chemie]

8 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

I agree, 50 morale is a huge penalty compared to 35 before!

it was really 25.  your 35 astronaut is essentially deleted once loaded permanently into rocket

[M.C.]

Okay. This has a distinct did-not-think-this-through feel to it. In the previous version, the end state is unchanging because every dupe excels at everything. In the new version, the end state is also unchanging because you've reached the morale cap and the game doesn't give you the tools to raise it.

It would have been a good change if they gave us those tools. Until they do, this change will remain a dumbass move.

[pacovf]

8 minutes ago, M.C. said:

Okay. This has a distinct did-not-think-this-through feel to it. In the previous version, the end state is unchanging because every dupe excels at everything. In the new version, the end state is also unchanging because you've reached the morale cap and the game doesn't give you the tools to raise it.

It would have been a good change if they gave us those tools. Until they do, this change will remain a dumbass move.

Not sure I follow. The new system pushes you to specialise your dupes. If they gave you the tools to have all your dupes learn everything, then how would it be different from the previous system?