New Skills system versus Old Jobs system.

[Lilalaunekuh]

8 minutes ago, M.C. said:

Why is this a desirable change?

 

4 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

I definitely think specialization is something that should matter for the first several hundred cycles.

 

The game was/is always rewarding specialization, so a job/skill system with the same principle behind would be preferable.

 

Spoiler

I want a way to have jack-of-all-trades duplicants, but it should be a challenging long term goal.

Or there should be downsides:

-Maybe very long down time.

...

 

[goboking]

4 minutes ago, M.C. said:

"The entire point of this change is to encourage you to specialize your dupes". Those are your words.

That's not an endorsement, that's a statement of fact.  The entire purpose of this new system is in fact to encourage players to specialize their dupes, is it not?

[pacovf]

It leads to interesting decisions, where right now there are none.

Current system: as soon as you reach a new morale threshold, you should get all your dupes to learn all the jobs of that level. The order you learn the jobs in matters a bit, but not that much. All colonies end up looking the same, pretty quickly.

New system: you have to chose how many people have each skill. This leads to figuring out what is a right mix of skills to keep your colony running. And makes your dupes feel more unique and reduces time you have to spend clicking on skills. 

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 minute ago, goboking said:

That's not an endorsement, that's a statement of fact.  The entire purpose of this new system is in fact to encourage players to specialize their dupes, is it not?

For me the biggest/best change is the alleviation of the stress to always change jobs so I don´t miss out on exp.

 

[M.C.]

Just now, goboking said:

That's not an endorsement, that's a statement of fact.  The entire purpose of this new system is in fact to encourage players to specialize their dupes, is it not?

Yes, yes, of course it is. The question isn't the goal of this change. The question is, does this change make the game better? A few people in this thread treat it like unquestionably beneficial. So far only pacovf provided his reasoning, and I find his reasoning lacking... I'll probably have to explain it in more detail when I get a chance to type a long(er) post.

[beowulf2010]

5 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

For me the biggest/best change is the alleviation of the stress to always change jobs so I don´t miss out on exp.

This is a big thing for me as well. 

[M.C.]

1 minute ago, beowulf2010 said:

This is a big thing for me as well. 

Huh. I never suffered from this particular kind of stress in the game, so I never saw it as a problem, nor do I see being free of this stress as an improvement. To each his own I suppose.

[Lilalaunekuh]

Just a question:

Do you think all "improved" skills should be removed form the skill tree ?

(All/or at least most of the skills without an unique ability are called "improved xyz".)

 

In the old system There was a good reason to have job tree to progress, but right now a higher morale penalty for the at the moment gated skills could do the trick in my eyes.

(I think it would be more clear to make skills unique ablities with some decision making attached in a comparison to the skill points a duplicants accumulates by doing a specific task.)

[camelot]

Quick question, does high Learning matter now?

[Lilalaunekuh]

4 minutes ago, camelot said:

Quick question, does high Learning matter now?

Learning wasn´t touched in that way xD

(Job progression was never tied to the learning skill and the skill point increase for doing a task is still working like before.)

=> It´s a yes

[camelot]

3 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Learning wasn´t touched in that way xD

(Job progression was never tied to the learning skill and the skill point increase for doing a task is still working like before.)

I mean are dupes with higher learning still gain skill point faster? I don't have the mean to check the game right now

[Lilalaunekuh]

3 minutes ago, camelot said:

6 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Learning wasn´t touched in that way xD

(Job progression was never tied to the learning skill and the skill point increase for doing a task is still working like before.)

I mean are dupes with higher learning skill still gain more skill point? I don't have the mean to check the game right now

I have 20 duplicants in my base and when I look at the skill points it seems the gain some at roughly the same time.

=> I think learning doesn´t effect the skill point gain like it was for job progression

(I have duplicants with 2 and some with over 10 learning skill and all seems to gain skill points at the same rate. Even if some of them are idle all day long and some are working a full shift. So it isn´t work load based either.)

[goboking]

10 minutes ago, M.C. said:

The question is, does this change make the game better?

It creates a new problem for players to solve.  Whether that makes the game better or not is subjective.  Judging by the game options available to us, there are evidently people who don't think things like hunger, stress, and disease make the game more enjoyable.  Others embrace these challenges and enjoy engineering solutions for the them.  In the same vein, I'm sure some will enjoy the logistical challenges of managing a colony full of specialists while others would rather not be bothered by such constraints.  So to answer your question, that's in the eye of the beholder.

[M.C.]

12 minutes ago, goboking said:

It creates a new problem for players to solve.

That's the thing, though... it doesn't. It really, really doesn't create any new problems for players to solve.

[goboking]

15 minutes ago, M.C. said:

That's the thing, though... it doesn't. It really, really doesn't create any new problems for players to solve.

Deciding how to allocate your dupes' skill points isn't a choice players will have to make?

[M.C.]

9 minutes ago, goboking said:

Deciding how to allocate your dupes' skill points isn't a choice players will have to make?

It is. But it's not a new problem. It's the exact same problem that exists today. This change won't force me to make any decisions I am not making already.

[pacovf]

I would be curious to read a longer explanation of your position

[M.C.]

Just now, pacovf said:

I would be curious to read a longer explanation of your position

Yeah, sorry, I am being pulled in a hundred different directions tonight, and I want to do this subject justice. I'll do it tomorrow.

[RonEmpire]

I think either balancing the morale points system to help with late game -  or possibly add in additional mechanics that make sense on how morale can be boosted late game could help those who feel they can add more skills to their dupes.

For example,   shouldn't morale be increased  if we reach milestones of the late game such as having telescope, or having scanners,  SPECIFICALLY and mainly Rockets.  Being able to leave the asteroid to explore other asteroids.    I mean we have morale bonus for having a great hall.  Or washroom.   or bedrooms.   These are things that boost morale because we've progressed a bit.    Just like in real life, when you have the first man on the moon, or being able to enter the space age.   It's a morale boost.    So for each functional Rockets,  there should be some overall colony morale boost.   Just an idea that makes sense to curve the morale points a bit more for late games, and allow players to 'extend' their skills up a bit.

[Oozinator]

2 hours ago, RonEmpire said:

.. So for each functional Rockets..

Perhaps for each landed rocket a temp morale boost or similar.

[PhailRaptor]

So, I don't have the preview branch installed, but based on what I'm reading......  the Jobs/Skills rework will not change anything for how I play.  If anything, it will accelerate my early game significantly, because I can get to the higher tier jobs with only a pitiful amount of Morale.  It makes it easier for me to get my cross-training done.  It's still the same obstacle course, just with a different layout.

All of my Dupes will still get trained in Gopher, Courier, Groundskeeper, and Plumber early, and as I get infrastructure up, Exosuit Engineer.  But the order will be different because I can, for example, put my research Dupe all the way up to Tenured Scientist as his first 3 Skill Points.  That's what, 3 Morale on the new system?  4 maybe?  That's how much he needed before as a mere Research Assistant.  He gets 1 for being a Dupe, 1 for using an Outhouse Bathroom, and 1 for sleeping in a Barracks.  2 segments of Downtime on the Schedule and he's good for 4 Morale.  Skip the Mess Hall to go straight to Great Hall -- between that and Decor Benefit that's what, 16 Morale?  Plenty to get the core skills out of the way.  So ultimately it's easier if you're getting most, but not all, Skills over the old Jobs.

Like most things Klei does, the concept is great, but the initial iteration is a swing and a miss.

[Oozinator]

1 hour ago, PhailRaptor said:

So, I don't have the preview branch installed, but based on what I'm reading......

Mhh better test it out on your own..

[JohnFrancis]

I had no idea players cared so much about jobs/skills. For me it's just another mechanic to lean and optimize.

I'm interested to see what professions can be rushed, how quickly can you now get stone hatches or glossy dreko's running now? How soon can I mine abyssalite to gain access to a cold biome? Can you rush a rocket before cycle 80 now? How quick can I get the skills to build auto sweepers and the new steam turbine? How much faster will my research be? I see lots of potential for getting some interesting stuff done much earlier. But until I'v played several games I'm not sure if it's a better or worse move, but I'm am excited to find out.

[DarkWalker]

12 hours ago, RonEmpire said:

For example,   shouldn't morale be increased  if we reach milestones of the late game such as having telescope, or having scanners,  SPECIFICALLY and mainly Rockets.  Being able to leave the asteroid to explore other asteroids.

An alternative way would be for milestones to reduce or remove the morale requirements of lower level skills.Let's take research, for example; you could make it so if you have 3 or more volcanoes/vents/whatever analyzed then Advanced Research doesn't have a morale impact anymore, and when you have a telescope and 3 scanners then Field Research doesn't have a morale impact anymore. Something similar could be done for the other skills too, so when you already have been properly using a higher level of the skill, or otherwise have infrastructure in place that trivializes the task the skill helps with (like autominers and digging, or conveyors and supply), then the morale requirements for that skill are permanently lowered.

I would prefer if morale requirements were changed to work more like it was before, though. The rest of the skill system is fine, but having morale requirements increase in a roughly linear way with the number of "professions" the dupe is fully trained to perform is a huge bother for me. Besides, 6 morale requirement for any lv3 skill feels just too low; that is less than the lowest requirement for a lv2 job under the old system, making morale almost a non-issue if you go for highly specialized dupes.

[Gurgel]

After having played QOL3 for a few hours now, I think I am beginning to see the point of the changes. Sure, the job selection is non-familiar and something is wrong with the morale calculation, but overall, this feels better than the old system. In particular, it does not stand in your way so much and it does not make you wait to be able to do things, because you can simply not afford the morale-impact yet. I think I may actually like this better than the old system.