Here's the new Steam Turbine

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

Just now, Saturnus said:

1) The heat energy is converted into electrical energy at 1kDTU = 1W up to 835.8W maximum. Above that it just deletes excess heat energy.

 2) No. In my opinion it is not possible for it to be power positive with an aquatuner

So basically we can just cool the turbine through running a radiating pipeline of its output on the background of the device?

[Saturnus]

Just now, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

So basically we can just cool the turbine through running a radiating pipeline of its output on the background of the device?

Yes. As long as the steam input temperature is 176C or lower so you get 80% of the maximum potential power output.

[chemie]

exploits aside, is their intent to provide a large liquid heat deleter?  put aqua tuners in water, boil, drive turbine, and dump 95c back to tuners.  ignore the power but now it is a liquid aetn.  and no exploits needed like current version?

[pacovf]

Hm, this would be the equivalent of a real life turbine + condenser. The condenser dissipates all the heat that the turbine couldn’t harness, usually around 60% of the input. It would be interesting to see if the heat released by ONI’s turbine is related to the input heat too.

It would have been cool if the turbine heat conversion efficiency increased with input temperature, but from what has been written, this sounds like a fine compromise.

EDIT: has anyone run the numbers to see how the heat to energy conversion of this turbine compares to the conversion of the old turbine with all 5 ports open?

[GemeinerJack]

just something to throw in here for inspiration:

can't keep up with steam production, but getting out water at 11°C and offsetting the aqua tuner power requierment while at it sounds like something to look into, i think

[FiannaTiger]

So maybe I'm missing it but does the turbine heat up more with hotter steam?  Whats the relationship?

[Saturnus]

Here's the maximum power output of the steam turbine at 195C steam. It's 800W constant... and then 850W flickering on every few ticks. Quite annoying behaviour really but tolerable.

Here the minimum power output of the steam turbine at 125C steam. It's 240W constant... and then 850W flicking on every few ticks. Definitely needs a battery to smooth out this behaviour.

The fact that whatever the constant power output is, the steam turbine gives out 850W spikes is definitely something people have to take note of in their designs.

[pacovf]

Those spikes kinda sound like a bug though.

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, pacovf said:

Those spikes kinda sound like a bug though.

I can definitely live with it if it's done to minimize the needed amount of calculations but it does complicate matters, and really a steam turbine should be one of the most consistent power sources you could possibly find.

[FiannaTiger]

8 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Here's the equilibrium temperature with a single wheezewort running the turbine at maximum efficiency of 195C steam input.

Note I didn't say you needed to have the maximum efficiency. At 80% efficiency, meaning 668.4W output at steam input temperature 176C the equilibrium temperature is 99.7C only cooled with the water output of the steam turbine itself.

Note that not running at maximum efficiency does not mean you lose any potential power.

So does anyone have numbers on the max temp of steam you can use when cooling with one wheezwort? or even two?  That would be good information to know for things like volcano taming and LOX LH creation.

[EleriusX]

It seems like this new turbine design turns lime into power source. A metal refinery processing steel (so lime being the limiting factor) dumping its heat into a steam chamber where the steam is consumed by turbines that circulate their output back into the steam chamber. The refinery can simply loop petroleum through the steam chamber. This produces an excess of energy beyond what the refinery consumes. Two closed loops: one of petroleum for the refinery, one of steam/water through the turbines. Requires external power to get the steam chamber up to temp, then after that, free energy. This was with 1 refinery and two turbines.

Would iron refining also generate enough heat to keep them spinning? 

[mathmanican]

11 hours ago, lee1026 said:

once you have matter converting builds going, natural gas is just going to be more appealing.

Ummm... One type of matter converter building (the one I put in my first post) requires a pump and a valve (no more), along with a liquid.  So by cycle 2 or so you can convert any gas you want into another gas. Another matter converter building option is PW bottles with deodorizers.  Anyone noticed how their CO2 magically disappears around PW bottles?  It's not just the algae terrarium that does it.  When a deodorizer snatches PO2 from a PW bottle, it creates a vacuum.  In comes the dreaded "matter conversion".

• My current CO2 cleansing in my base goes as follows. Drain some collected pee water on the bottom floor of my base. Then mop it all up, leaving lots of little bottles. Put up deodorizers to create lots of vacuume patches every time the bottles off gas. This enables matter conversion, and you'll see your CO2 levels drop and disappear (quite rapidly). Way simpler than waterfall matter converter. 

If I want PW and CO2 as a byproduct, I just convert everything to NG and burn it.  If I want to avoid byproducts, then just convert everything to H2 and burn it. Both are more efficient than steam now, true. Of course, neither is more efficient than using a battery/transformer pair to get energy out of nothing. 

[Nickerooni]

Math checks out for running refinery. 838 kdtu/s for 838 W (approx. avg)

Refinery takes 1200 W for 2330 kdtu/s when making Steel (source: https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Metal_Refinery).

Petrol pipes for heat transfer is pretty trivial.

It looks around net neutral for iron.

[EleriusX]

Does having a higher "operate" (tinker) dupe running the refinery matter? If they make the steel faster, less power is used (time), but the same heat is generated?

[Gus Smedstad]

This isn't really a new thing. I set up an old-turbine cooler for my metal refinery. One port open meant 600k DTU/s converted to 2000W. Less 960 watts in my case because I used gas pumps, not door pumps, to move that 2 kgs/s of steam back below the turbine. But still 1040 W for 600k DTU/s in my case.

[Saturnus]

I am convinced that the change in the steam turbine together with the introduction of an ice maker and manual iced fan is a clear sign that the biggest current exploit in the game, the fixed output temperature water sieve, is finally going to die, and have the output temperature equal input temperature.

When that happens, most people are going to need relatively easy to set up heat deletion on a massive scale, and the new version of the steam turbine offers exactly that.

23 minutes ago, EleriusX said:

It seems like this new turbine design turns lime into power source.

I might be power positive if you only look at the last step of the process.

To make steel you need lime which needs to be crushed in the rock crusher. That takes power.

To make steel you need refined carbon made from coal. That deletes a fuel that could otherwise make power.

To make both steel and lime needs dupe time to operate the buildings which is time that could be spent on hamster wheels generating power.

So I'm not fully convinced it is in fact net power positive when all the factors are considered.

[EleriusX]

8 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

To make steel you need lime which needs to be crushed in the rock crusher. That takes power.

To make steel you need refined carbon made from coal. That deletes a fuel that could otherwise make power.

To make both steel and lime needs dupe time to operate the buildings which is time that could be spent on hamster wheels.

So I'm not fully convinced it is in fact net power positive when all the factors are considered.

Sure. But all these things are going to be true whether the final step in the process is power-positive or not. You need steel for space tech. The issue with steel used to be dealing with the heat it generated. Now that heat it generates is much more easily harnessed. You don't even need fancy materials to build anything, as you only need steam temp of 200c for optimal turbine performance. I wasn't even testing with an engie's tuneup buff. Which is actually easy to apply to the new turbines.

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, EleriusX said:

 Which is actually easy to apply to the new turbines.

Steam turbines cannot be tuned up in the current version as far as I know.

Note, that I'm not saying it's not a nice bonus to cutting the power cost of producing steel but it's not a good permanent power generation build.

[0xFADE]

Oh keeping the turbine cool with its own output water is quite devilish.

I was going to ask how much heat it put out itself but I guess that isn’t super important unless they make it operate at under 95c

[lee1026]

Steel making throws out so much heat that it will be power positive in the end.

 

Remember, tinkering speeds up tasks but don't make them take up any more power. So a dupe with decent tinkering (and you will have dupes with decent tinkering by the time that serious steel production and steam turbines come around) will reduce the cost of using the crusher for lime and using the metal refinery to much less then the advertised cost. Coal power cost an amazing of coal for not a lot of power, so I will write that off as a rounding error for the most part.

[Rainbowdesign]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 AM, mathmanican said:

Well, I had time to try a pulsed tepidizer.  Once you get the temp up to 195 in the heating chamber, this thing will self power with excess. 

It provides continuous heat deletion at 2kg/s.  It does have some positive power out, but not anything like the previous turbine. I'm guessing you could siphon off 300W or so of power, but that's just my initial guestimate. I'm sure @Saturnus will run 50 cycle tests on his workstation, once we find some optimalish setups, and this thing leaves the preview. 

Of course, save/load still breaks an overtemp  tepidizer, so this build only works till you do a save/reload.  

 

 

The tepidizer should be nerfed so it does not produce more heat than is in the electricity it uses.

[SamLogan]

I've updated all my initial post to correspond with the last hotfix.

[pacovf]

4 hours ago, Rainbowdesign said:

 

The tepidizer should be nerfed so it does not produce more heat than is in the electricity it uses.

Note that there is currently no relationship between electric and thermal power. Almost all buildings that convert one to the other do so with different ratios.

[goatt]

20 hours ago, EleriusX said:

Does having a higher "operate" (tinker) dupe running the refinery matter? If they make the steel faster, less power is used (time), but the same heat is generated?

yis, answers to all are yis

[Boxman_90]

6 hours ago, Rainbowdesign said:

 

The tepidizer should be nerfed so it does not produce more heat than is in the electricity it uses.

This would render it basically useless, since in that case it would not be able to heat up any decent amount of water in a considerable amount of time. The current implementation of it not being able to heat beyond 85 C is fine. Like mathmanican said, pulsed tepidizers don't work in survival mode anyway.