[Analysis] Winona was nerfed overall: I truly feel like she needs these buffs to her rework.

[ShadowDuelist]

I tested a late winter start with winona, im pretty decent at winter starts with most characters, I managed to get all the materials for a thermal by my second day without freezing, then I starved. On hindsight and analyzing what I did and could made made better, I cant think of any changes to my playtrough. I was lucky finding the materials fast, and kept my hp quite high despite the freezing, and found a decent amount of food for 2 days. Should I have moved away to gather more food, Id have died of freezing.

I have to agree that she is no longer a character that is friendly to start with, specially in a harder survival situation, she is now a character you switch to once you are decently established, with resources, and want to kill bosses.

I suppose the community agrees on the following changes then:

-2 or 1 hunger per fast craft instead of 5 when at high hunger

-A "normal" zone where you dont loose hunger while crafting but craft at normal speed, as long as you remain between those values of hunger. (Like normal wolfgang middle values of hunger) Below that value you slowcraft.

-On/Off switch for generators

-Spotlights will prioritize one person at the time and coordinate themselves, so if for example 3 spotlights are within range and 3 people are in that area, they will automatically split so each person gets the light of one

-Catapults no longer regenerate lost damage. She needs to repair her catapults if they get damaged (maybe with tape? Each tape could provide a good chunk of hp anyway, like 50% each)

Would all of this do it? Can someone mod these changes and playtest her to see if she becomes too op or decently balanced?

[MondayNight]

5 hours ago, snugglysnootertoot said:

"Winona was nerfed overall."

Huh, Winonator making all the other characters entirely obsolete when it comes to laying waste to most bosses is a "nerf" now, is it?

Seriously though, and I do hope some Klei devs are reading the feedback from people, the catapults are overpowered boss killers. Mobs that are slow or stationary are a joke when you have ranged weapons with infinite ammo. To make matters worse, the catapults are hilariously easy to mass produce in comparison to what was available before. At least Houndius Shootius took time and effort to craft in numbers.

 

Suggestions for change(s) to catapults:

More demanding crafting recipe. (instead of 15 rocks require a load of frazzled wires or something)

Limit ammo / require reloading. (no, a few gems or some nitre every time you want to solo Misery Toadstool or Ancient Fuelweaver with your eyes closed is nowhere near enough as "operating costs")

Has to be actively operated by a character to fire. (or some other requirement that will noticeably limit mass production)

Some sort of % chance for a catapult to malfunction when it takes a shot. (this would then force Winona to repair the catapult at a one time cost to her sanity. sort of like Wickerbottom reading her books)

No health regen. (the regen on a Houndius Shootius is well earned. catapults should not have such a luxury. again, make Winona maintain her armada of death dealing machinery)

 

While character reworks are most welcome, I do hope the aim of the reworks isn't to turn DST into "A trivially easy wilderness survival game full of science and magic."

Almost no one will use Winona anymore, including I if the insanity above would come true in any capacity. She wouldn't be played even in the numbers before rework (when she was sparsely played - mostly by fans of her origins and connections, not abilities). That's why I write people like you aren't in contact with how vast majority of the player base actually plays and what their levels are: go in pubs, the Klei official variety, and see how casual Winonas fair - aka not well at all, most of them dying now from hunger via crafting. And because of the 5-hunger-points nerf the amount of people going for Winona now has subsided considerably vs 7/8 March when she was released even if her catapults are good. Because now she isn't a good starter option, only mid-to-end game when you want efficient automation. This "trivially easy wilderness" is only at your level (I presume you have a considerable number of DST hours under your proverbial belt being dedicated to the game) as part a very very small minority dear chap, bulk of player-base can hardly survive as Wilson and can't even conceptualize farming bosses for example.

[maradyne]

I just want to say that I fully agree that the Catapults are OP as heck and should be re-balanced as such. Most of the 'buffs' I'm asking for are for QoL sake. And I'd like to see changes to how Winona herself operates; the electrical system is almost separate from her.
If the Spotlights were more functionally appealing, an off switch and higher holding capacity were added to the Generators, and maybe one more Generator-fueled structure were added, I'd argue that maybe the Generators themselves should require Wires, rather than the Catapults; as a tradeoff, add a really expensive recipe for making more Wires.
And yea, the Catapults should definitely require 'restocking' ammo. Removing health regen is good too, but let them be repaired with Flex Tape.

Though it quickly went downhill due to other players not helping distract the thing, I did manage to half-kill the Bee Queen, with 10 Catapults, gathering all the materials myself, with lag, no speed boost and no more than one Battle Helm and one Log Suit, without fences or actually hitting the thing myself...on day 19.
So yea. The Catapults are OP AF.
Winona herself isn't.

[JohnWatson]

catapults should deal zero damage against bosses because bosses are meant to be unkillable

[maxiaogua]

1 hour ago, lifetheuniverse said:

I just want to say that I fully agree that the Catapults are OP as heck and should be re-balanced as such. Most of the 'buffs' I'm asking for are for QoL sake. And I'd like to see changes to how Winona herself operates; the electrical system is almost separate from her.
If the Spotlights were more functionally appealing, an off switch and higher holding capacity were added to the Generators, and maybe one more Generator-fueled structure were added, I'd argue that maybe the Generators themselves should require Wires, rather than the Catapults; as a tradeoff, add a really expensive recipe for making more Wires.
And yea, the Catapults should definitely require 'restocking' ammo. Removing health regen is good too, but let them be repaired with Flex Tape.

Though it quickly went downhill due to other players not helping distract the thing, I did manage to half-kill the Bee Queen, with 10 Catapults, gathering all the materials myself, with lag, no speed boost and no more than one Battle Helm and one Log Suit, without fences or actually hitting the thing myself...on day 19.
So yea. The Catapults are OP AF.
Winona herself isn't.

On Day 19.

While Wickerbottom can even speedrun Bee Queen on Day 6.

Yeah, the Catapults are OP.

 

 

 

I honestly don't understand why ppl complained about Winona's Catapults being too OP, while most ppl have been use easier "cheesy" ways for boss fights. 

With one single ice flingomatic and the "infinite freeze glitch" , all raid bosses expect Fuelweaver are done.

Then we also have the "wall glitch" can be used for Dragonfly and Bee Queen, the "ocean walking glitch" can be used for Bee Queen and Fuelweaver, the "mobs/bosses blocking glitch" for Bee Queen and Klaus, etc.

All these "cheesy" methods requires much less resources than Winona's mass Catapults building strategy.

Okay, say we don't want to utilize these glitches since they are often considered as "cheat" in this forum. Then we have Tentacles and Bunnymen strategies which are quite common for boss fights like Dragonfly and Bee Queen. Let's compare the non-cheesy way to handle Bee Queen to see if Catapults are really that OP.

Tentacles method still is absolutely the best to handle bosses since it requires the least resources. Just six On Tentacles and you're done (even lesser for Dragonfly). The only cons for is the risk of getting killed by tentacles, but it really isn't a problem when you're familiar with this method. 

Bunnymen method requires the most resources, though it actually can be done with ease. Just hammer all the Rabbit Hutches in the cave and you'll have about 12+ Hutches, then start a Bunnymen civil war every dusk, collects the loots and repeat. If you prioritize the task of killing Dragonfly/Bee Queen, you could have built 30 Hutches around Day 12-13. Safe and no need for specific character, the only cons is it would need 10+ Beekeeper Hats/Battle Helms for each time you fight the Bee Queen.  

Catapults method somehow lies between Tentacles and Bunnymen methods. Safer than Tentacles, but requires more resources than Tentacles; easier to be prepared than Bunnymen (with helmets), but need specific character (Winona). 270s rocks for 18 Catapults sounds a little easier than 120 Boards for 30 Rabbit Hutches, though in fact it takes more time to prepare than you'd think (boards are easy, just hammer all the Pigmen/Bunnymen houses you found), if you don't have a Maxwell in your team. 

I have some Bee Queen runs of both Bunnymen method (using Wigfrid since Battle Helms are easier to make than Beekeeper hats) and Catapults method, both are around Day 15. When I play Wickerbottom, I usually kill Bee Queen on Day 7-8.

Why consider Winona's only useful perk (a.k.a Catapults) OP while our the most OP character Wickerbottom's On Tentacles can beat out Catapults and still got other useful perks(books)? 

For now, I don't see the reason why Catapults are more OP than Tentacles/Bunnymen. It just brings out another choice for people who have been tired of the Tentacles/Bunnymen method , and adds some other aesthetics to the game.

 

And let's not forget, when Warly first came out in Shipwrecked, people claimed him being too OP, and then he was nerfed.

We know rest of the story: Nobody cares about Warly anymore.

 

 

 

 

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, lifetheuniverse said:

Though it quickly went downhill due to other players not helping distract the thing, I did manage to half-kill the Bee Queen, with 10 Catapults, gathering all the materials myself, with lag, no speed boost and no more than one Battle Helm and one Log Suit, without fences or actually hitting the thing myself...on day 19.

So yea. The Catapults are OP AF.
Winona herself isn't.

"..went downhill due to other players not helping distract the thing.." - what in Cthulhu's forsaken name is this madness? Does an "EZ PZ OP" strat need players actually engaging "the thing"?! Preposterous! We all know "EZ PZ OP" strats only require you to do a chicken dance emote beside "the thing" while gorging on meatballs! Otherwise is not true "EZ PZ OP 1337" strat. Faker!

Why I did DF - totally legit I must say *BURP!* - day 5 with only a Hambat and 40 berries (with an out-of-border experience) Que the dub pose boi! BUUUYAH!

[maradyne]

Warly's pretty much the most requested DLC character that people want in DST, just throwing that out there.

 

Wickerbottom's the highest tier of broken. Her sheer power could use some work, but the tentacles do at least pose some risk.

I should also mention that the Day 19 run was my first time touching new Winona, I didn't decide to try it until about day 12, and began with me gathering several stacks of unnecessary twigs and grass because for some reason I got the recipes mixed up.
Far from an ideal run, and if someone who isn't the actual head of the Clown Fiesta Association were to try, a more successful run could probably be done in a few days; it really only takes as long as it takes to find the rocky biome.
Catapults are stronk. Part of their power comes from permanence due to rarely being attacked so long as the distraction is kept up.

[Annatictac]

40 minutes ago, maxiaogua said:

On Day 19.

While Wickerbottom can even speedrun Bee Queen on Day 6.

Yeah, the Catapults are OP.

Why consider Winona's only useful perk (a.k.a Catapults) OP while our the most OP character Wickerbottom's On Tentacles can beat out Catapults and still got other useful perks(books)? 

They're considered OP because after the initial investment, you never have to pay for the catapults again aside from Nitre/Gems.

Would I say it's stronger than Wickerbottom's books? No, but also I feel like trying to balance the game around top tier characters like Wickerbottom is a horrible thing to do. The game might as well play itself if we're making it that easy.

New Winona is great because she actually has a downside that makes players wonder "Is this powerful perk actually worth it?" No other character does that except DS Willow and maybe Webber. Wickerbottom can't sleep? Nobody cares about that. Wolfgang loses hunger faster and is scared of the dark? You'll lose less sanity on average anyways from your 2x damage modifier. WX basically has no downside with his insane health pool is and how unnoticeable his rain damage is.

Not even the "lower tier" characters really have any weakness. Maxwell has a lower health pool, but has the ability to generate nightmare armor easily and wear them with basically no downside. Wigfrid can't eat non-meat which is pretty bad in some scenarios, but she heals health from monsters and can easily generate meat. Plus the crockpot can turn non-meat into better meat. Wendy's weaker but can easily farm materials, and it only really means you'll be fighting for a bit longer.

And Woodie... Well, he's Woodie.

I would think the only thing Winona would need is to tweak the hunger drain. Make it so it's dependent on the amount of items a recipe calls for. 3 items and lower takes no drain, and +1 hunger for every additional item after that or something. Building catapults in a microsecond would take a decent chunk of hunger, but you wouldn't be too punished for trying to make a bunch of boards

[maxiaogua]

19 minutes ago, Annatictac said:

They're considered OP because after the initial investment, you never have to pay for the catapults again aside from Nitre/Gems.

Would I say it's stronger than Wickerbottom's books? No, but also I feel like trying to balance the game around top tier characters like Wickerbottom is a horrible thing to do. The game might as well play itself if we're making it that easy.

New Winona is great because she actually has a downside that makes players wonder "Is this powerful perk actually worth it?" No other character does that except DS Willow and maybe Webber. Wickerbottom can't sleep? Nobody cares about that. Wolfgang loses hunger faster and is scared of the dark? You'll lose less sanity on average anyways from your 2x damage modifier. WX basically has no downside with his insane health pool is and how unnoticeable his rain damage is.

Not even the "lower tier" characters really have any weakness. Maxwell has a lower health pool, but has the ability to generate nightmare armor easily and wear them with basically no downside. Wigfrid can't eat non-meat which is pretty bad in some scenarios, but she heals health from monsters and can easily generate meat. Plus the crockpot can turn non-meat into better meat. Wendy's weaker but can easily farm materials, and it only really means you'll be fighting for a bit longer.

And Woodie... Well, he's Woodie.

I would think the only thing Winona would need is to tweak the hunger drain. Make it so it's dependent on the amount of items a recipe calls for. 3 items and lower takes no drain, and +1 hunger for every additional item after that or something. Building catapults in a microsecond would take a decent chunk of hunger, but you wouldn't be too punished for trying to make a bunch of boards

Well, you don't have to pay for the bunnymen aside from some cheap helmets. That's cheaper than Nitre/Gems, plus with bunnymen you don't even have to bare Winona's 32.5x hunger drain.

Of course Winona shouldn't be as OP as Wickerbottom. But Catapults are not even better than bunnymen which every characters can utilize in most situations, except for Fuelweaver and Toadstool.

[Tapirus]

16 minutes ago, lifetheuniverse said:

Warly's pretty much the most requested DLC character that people want in DST, just throwing that out there.

Sorry, but the end was different.

And there's some people who just want the Portable Crock Pot in DST, not the character exactly.

[JohnWatson]

what is this image

 

[maxiaogua]

22 minutes ago, lifetheuniverse said:

Warly's pretty much the most requested DLC character that people want in DST, just throwing that out there.

While I have watched 200+ hours of Don't Starve streaming last year, barely seen any streamer playing him. Guess that's quite weird.

[Electroely]

The catapults may be overpowered... but only at killing BOSSES. Even then, it's not like this is anything new. We've already had cheaty methods of killing Bee Queen, Toadstool and Ancient Fuelweaver,

If you strongly believe that catapults are overpowered when it comes to bosses, then how about this: Give bosses catapult damage resistance, similarly to how they have gunpowder damage resistance. That way they make still come in useful what they seem to be meant to do (deal with large groups of enemies) while not making the fight fly by.

I believe that the catapults are good as-is. Most people seem to completely ignore the fact that bosses aren't the only thing you'd use the catapult for. I've been playing Winona in public servers, and I've been finding her perks useful: 
- If I know there is mass-crafting to be done (like chests for a chest area or extra crockpots for a kitchen), I'll cook myself a meaty stew or two and get crafting.
- The spotlight is NOT good as a firepit replacement. Instead, it shines in helping players who will be busy in one area for a while (say, a chest area or a spider farm)
- The catapult helps with farming spiders and hounds quite a bit. Dealing with 20 spiders at once is made a lot easier with 3 catapults connected to a nitre generator (as their combined damage will quickly kill a handful of spiders with every shot). 

I believe this makes her a good character. Not broken, overpowered or anything. Just good. Overpowered means that she turns the entire game into a joke. She doesn't. She just offers a different method of killing bosses (Wickerbottom has been doing this for well over 2 years and no one's complained?) and make living in a base a little more convenient for everyone.
Nerfing her catapult could potentially ruin it. I've seen people suggest to remove the health regeneration. I would say that this is a terrible idea. The only reason people complain about it being "too good" is that it can destroy bosses with ease. But one of the main reason that that's true is that bosses don't even attack it! The only situation it would take damage in is if it was fighting a horde of mobs. While mobs may not immediately switch targets to it when it hits them, they will certainly target it if it does hit them while they don't have a target. Spiders, like most mobs, drop their current target if they don't attack it for long enough. When this happens, getting attacked by a catapult will make said spider (and other nearby spiders) attack that catapult. That's when it takes damage. When used outside of killing bosses.
Another nerf I've seen many suggest is making it require ammo. Doing so will make using it too expensive to be viable for anything, especially when considering how often they miss their target. Requiring manual operation would not make it less viable. It would make it not viable at all. A player does much more damage attacking with an axe than a catapult does constantly firing.

So please, don't nerf her or her catapults. As maxiaogua said, 

53 minutes ago, maxiaogua said:

And let's not forget, when Warly first came out in Shipwrecked, people claimed him being too OP, and then he was nerfed.

We know rest of the story: Nobody cares about Warly anymore.

 

[4 Da LOLs]

i feel like it doesn't give much a playstyle

Webber you avoid pigs and use spiders instead

Warly you have a loss for eating normal food use your pot

Warbucks (when he was around) you use your money from exploring to negate your sanity loss

Wigfrid can't eat meat so kill stuff for meat

Willow freezes when insane so use fire to regain sanity

Wormwood doesn't heal from food so you stay passive and you don't lose

Woodlegs slow on land so use new boat

Woodie cut tree and eat the wood to avoid going beaver

and most who do have upsides that don't negate their downsides then you can just ignore the upsides

Going insane as Wicker? just don't use your books and eat some jerky or somthing

Want to not drain your teams food supply? then only go mighty Wolfgang when in combat

Don't want to get  WereWilba? put on the amulet and stay in pig villages 

Wilson doesn't want to over heat? shave

Wino can't do ether if you just want to relax and sit back is when her downsides are most blatant no stratigy or playstyle negates this and not even just not using machines will not help

even if you do manage the hunger it still doesn't feel good to be harming your basic progress

also she is too relent on her machines you can put them down then despawn her there isn't a point to full time play Winona

[TheKingofSquirrels]

4 hours ago, Electroely said:

The catapults may be overpowered... but only at killing BOSSES. Even then, it's not like this is anything new. We've already had cheaty methods of killing Bee Queen, Toadstool and Ancient Fuelweaver,

If you strongly believe that catapults are overpowered when it comes to bosses, then how about this: Give bosses catapult damage resistance, similarly to how they have gunpowder damage resistance. That way they make still come in useful what they seem to be meant to do (deal with large groups of enemies) while not making the fight fly by.

I believe that the catapults are good as-is. Most people seem to completely ignore the fact that bosses aren't the only thing you'd use the catapult for. I've been playing Winona in public servers, and I've been finding her perks useful: 
- If I know there is mass-crafting to be done (like chests for a chest area or extra crockpots for a kitchen), I'll cook myself a meaty stew or two and get crafting.
- The spotlight is NOT good as a firepit replacement. Instead, it shines in helping players who will be busy in one area for a while (say, a chest area or a spider farm)
- The catapult helps with farming spiders and hounds quite a bit. Dealing with 20 spiders at once is made a lot easier with 3 catapults connected to a nitre generator (as their combined damage will quickly kill a handful of spiders with every shot). 

I believe this makes her a good character. Not broken, overpowered or anything. Just good. Overpowered means that she turns the entire game into a joke. She doesn't. She just offers a different method of killing bosses (Wickerbottom has been doing this for well over 2 years and no one's complained?) and make living in a base a little more convenient for everyone.
Nerfing her catapult could potentially ruin it. I've seen people suggest to remove the health regeneration. I would say that this is a terrible idea. The only reason people complain about it being "too good" is that it can destroy bosses with ease. But one of the main reason that that's true is that bosses don't even attack it! The only situation it would take damage in is if it was fighting a horde of mobs. While mobs may not immediately switch targets to it when it hits them, they will certainly target it if it does hit them while they don't have a target. Spiders, like most mobs, drop their current target if they don't attack it for long enough. When this happens, getting attacked by a catapult will make said spider (and other nearby spiders) attack that catapult. That's when it takes damage. When used outside of killing bosses.
Another nerf I've seen many suggest is making it require ammo. Doing so will make using it too expensive to be viable for anything, especially when considering how often they miss their target. Requiring manual operation would not make it less viable. It would make it not viable at all. A player does much more damage attacking with an axe than a catapult does constantly firing.

So please, don't nerf her or her catapults. As maxiaogua said, 

 

It's also worth mentioning, that most players won't abuse the catapults. I'm talking about the kind of players that won't use fences to cheese the Bee Queen for example. Most Winona players will simply help the team by putting down one - maybe two catapults - for a fight, making these boss fights a little bit more dynamic.

 

[Tapirus]

5 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

what is this image

The user SinarcoTheBest made a thread (which had two polls "¿Which DS character would you like to see in DST?"), lasting during whole February, and then he got the final results.

 

On 25/2/2019 at 6:47 AM, SinancoTheBest said:

Here are the poll results as of 25 February 2019.  Wormwood appears to be the most popular character wanted in DST as a DLC character, indicating that people liked its mechanics in Hamlet beta, like the concept of a playable plant character, or overall like the design. The Wormwood responses might also have been inflated by proximity error, meaning it may have gathered extra attention as the most recently added character. The "Completely new, unseen character" option was also picked almost as many times as wormwood, suggessing that almost half (four out of every 10 respondants) want to see some brand new characters over already existing/scrapped characters. 3rd and 4th Places were taken By Shipwrecked's Warly and Hamlet's Wilba, both picked by at least a quarter of respondants. Warly is also significant for being picked the most times amongst the four Shipwrecked characters and the only explicitly human character amongst the top 6 picks, indicating his popularity and potential compatibility with the DST environment as a cook. Wilba, also garnering a close vote suggest the overall popularity of current Hamlet DLC characters in early access, in stark contrast with the removed Warbucks, who only takes about one tenth of the picks for multiplayer arena. Wilbur the monkey is also a popular pick, pick of 1/5 of respondants, cementing the popularity of animalistic characters over human ones for the DLC role. Amongst the unimplemented characters Wilton the skeleton is the most popular, getting about 5% more demand than Wallace and Waverly. Woodlegs takes the least number of votes, potentially due to his incompatibility in the unsailable waters of DST or the lack of enthusiasim going on specifically for his character amongst DST players.

 

[Majestix]

23 hours ago, maxiaogua said:

On Day 19.

While Wickerbottom can even speedrun Bee Queen on Day 6.

Yeah, the Catapults are OP.

 

 

 

I honestly don't understand why ppl complained about Winona's Catapults being too OP, while most ppl have been use easier "cheesy" ways for boss fights. 

With one single ice flingomatic and the "infinite freeze glitch" , all raid bosses expect Fuelweaver are done.

Then we also have the "wall glitch" can be used for Dragonfly and Bee Queen, the "ocean walking glitch" can be used for Bee Queen and Fuelweaver, the "mobs/bosses blocking glitch" for Bee Queen and Klaus, etc.

All these "cheesy" methods requires much less resources than Winona's mass Catapults building strategy.

 

Right. We have the console anyway, so who cares about balance.

What exactly is your point? You are saying that the catapults are not OP, because they are weaker than exploiting glitches? You do know that Klei tried to patch the fire farm glitch, for example? The point is that the catapults, when used as intended, are ridiculously powerful, and trivialise previously hard and fun fights. If you have always made those fights trivial by using mechanics that are bugs, rather than features, then that's your decision (although I then do wonder, why you don't just push the "death" command to the boss in question via console), but it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

[Maxposting]

On 8. 3. 2019 at 2:36 PM, Sweaper said:

Catapults destroy walls.

use antlion's boulders.

BOOM.

[Pop Guy]

So, RECAPITULATION: First Winona had a niche of utility, a marginal but unique ability, all in all it was forgettable but balanced and appreciated, jokingly called "Wilson 2.0".
Now Winona is: on the one hand unnerving for the pathological consumption of food, impractical as a character to play for novices or to start a run in general, on the other with one of the most "broken" construction objects of the game, of the turrets automatic, which first if you wanted to build with another character you had to kill the 4 strongest leaders of the game and now, with Winona, you can make en masse with rocks and rods.
Not only that, the character was also made incongruous with his profession (she works in the factory, she loves to build but is, on balance, the worst builder of the game, without "if" and without "but"), and the generators and spotlights are made in an approximate way, without switches, without the intelligence to follow one player at a time and who actually needs light.
And it was so complicated to make the smart spotlights, that a modder published a special mod the DAY AFTER the update. To say.
Now, I love the art of Don't Starve, the game and Klei, but this time, after trying Winona and seeing all the opinions of others, I must unfortunately be very critical: the ideas behind the reworking are EXCELLENT, to introduce things like generators, lighthouses, electricity, automation, has potential IMMENSE (I deepened the question in another post, so here I do not intend to dwell), but the final realization is bad, because poorly balanced, made in a superficial and in the last instance: boring.
Maybe Klei had little time to think about how to rework Winona? I don't believe... and to say that it would have been enough to make it perfect in its small way: make them repair the armor with the ribbon. Sometimes I just do not understand...

[maxiaogua]

3 hours ago, Majestix said:

Right. We have the console anyway, so who cares about balance.

What exactly is your point? You are saying that the catapults are not OP, because they are weaker than exploiting glitches? You do know that Klei tried to patch the fire farm glitch, for example? The point is that the catapults, when used as intended, are ridiculously powerful, and trivialise previously hard and fun fights. If you have always made those fights trivial by using mechanics that are bugs, rather than features, then that's your decision (although I then do wonder, why you don't just push the "death" command to the boss in question via console), but it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

I'm saying that catapults are not only weaker than glitches, but also weaker than tentacles and bunnymen in most situation. Why you have to ignore my second part? 

Ppl here really hates glitches, while some game communities I know actually embrace glitches as part of the game like everyone would do classic Super Mario speedrun with glitches. I also played Cuphead for quite long and everyone was using weapon switch/boss phrase skip glitch for speedrun, and they wouldn't be considered as "cheaters". Comparing glitches to console is quite ridiculous. DST community are much more hostile towards glitches than other communities I've been in, I just don't know why.

But that's not my main point so I'm not going to further discuss about it. My main point is, DST already got some easy and legit ways to handle bosses already (tentacles and bunnymen as I stated already), catapults just adds another choice for people who don't want to man-fight everything.

I've solo'ed Toadstool with Wolfgang like 50 times already, the fight seemed "hard and fun" at the first few times, but soon became boring and lame due to its ridiculous huge health pool (takes 30+min damn long to fight). As soon as I didn't get any fun in the boss fights, my interests for DST changed to megabase building and farm automation. Lots of people play DST just for leisure and that's also the fun part of the game.

That's all about the catapults. They're not designed for boss speedrun (and they certainly can't beat our mighty Wolfgang), but designed for megabase building and farm automation. I don't see why they would take away the fun from you.

 

 

 

[maradyne]

It's just that the catapults themselves being strong isn't a reason to leave Winona herself in a bad state (again, Winona and the catapults are almost separate game play features), or a reason to not make QoL changes to the electrical system. Whether they should be nerfed or not is another matter, though I am kinda opposed to balancing things around preexisting things, especially the highest end of power that you can achieve in the game, rather than what feels like good gameplay; doubly so when there's nothing saying that those same strats will always be viable, because games change. The catapults definitely feel OP, and other strats do too; but that might not be a reason to nerf them by itself.
More focus should be put on mechanics than changing numbers.

Personally, the problem that I have with 'glitch' kills is intent; winning the game with what looks like an unintended oversight in a way that feels and looks buggy...well, feels and looks buggy. While Winona has problems, the catapults' ridiculously high power at least feels intended and their use is somewhat engaging and sensible, as opposed to flying things getting stuck on barriers shorter than their flight height, mobs that originate from lava not being able to swim over lava pools, or hounds that can gnaw through stone walls completely forgetting how to do anything when those same stones are used for similarly sized statues.
The catapults also benefit most from a character staying in one spot or running in a tight circle, so there's risk involved; that by itself is good design, at least. Honestly, most of the reason I'd like them to require restocking with 'projectiles' rather than a large stone cost up front is...because it makes sense, and infinite ammo ranged weapons are silly. And because it'd up the chance that someone could mod them to throw player characters.
Wicker's book is good too; powerful, but risky. Requires replenishment, makes retrieving loot a hazard. Nothing wrong with absolutely annihilating the things that oppose us if there's engaging gameplay involved.

 

Just wanted to clarify that me saying that the Catapults are OP wasn't me asking for them to be nerfed. I just said that they're OP because they are OP, given what they can do. Other strats are too.

[Blu_Ni]

I didn't even skim most of the replies, so I'll make this quick. I don't know about you guys, but she's my new main (at least until new opportunities arrive with new revamps with characters). Ya'll are just some lowly crafters that doesn't believe in the
M A S S  P R O D U C T I O N  O F  G O O D S

[Unn0ticedShadow]

Maxwell is probably best for the "Mass Production of Goods" as he can obtain items a lot faster, and crafting speed is almost never the determining factor in whether or not you can make something (except when chased by Splemonkeys).  Her spotlight is pretty much useless as most people know, with the light being horrible, which leaves her only real upside:  Catapults.

Catapults are different depending on how you play the game, with them either being really powerful (If cheesing bosses is your thing) to moderately useful at best, if your not one to build fossil walls or catapult bosses.  When it comes to her downside too, with her losing a bit more hunger when crafting, which is barely noticeable, and manageable.  However the slower work speed at low hunger is not much of a downside either, as you can just eat more food.  (Unless your starving, than you have bigger problems)

Overall she is still a pretty bland character, and pretty much needs every function of her to be reworked, from spotlights being useless, to catapults breaking walls (debatable, however) to her extremely boring downside, meaning she almost needs a whole other overhaul, as something needs to change.

      (Apparently I forgot the duct tape while writing this, but that is a very minor feature, and not really worth mentioning)

[FreyaMaluk]

On 3/10/2019 at 8:55 PM, 4 Da LOLs said:

Warbucks (when he was around) you use your money from exploring to negate your sanity loss

Warbucks never had a sanity problem in the first place.. you can craft a croc pot by day one and take food with you for exploring or buying food from vendor.. It actually forced you to play a little different, but tbh it's was kinda similar to Warly sooo I really didn't see very new or exciting mechanics with that character. BTW, I think the noincs sanity boost was pretty broken.

On 3/10/2019 at 8:55 PM, 4 Da LOLs said:

Willow freezes when insane so use fire to regain sanity

Willow only freezes while insane in DST

On 3/10/2019 at 8:55 PM, 4 Da LOLs said:

Woodlegs slow on land so use new boat

Woodlegs slow on land? I'm sorry but this is false. His drawback is that he has a huge sanity penalty while on land...

As a Woodlegs main in DS this comment rubs me the wrong way.. sorry not sorry

As for the Winona drawbacks.. I agree.. She has now more perks and no real downsides

one way of fixing would be to reduce walking and running speed while hungry less than 30%. that change alone would force to plan your exploration a bit different and it has some concrete dangers associated with it.

On 3/10/2019 at 1:35 PM, ShadowDuelist said:

I suppose the community agrees on the following changes then:

-Catapults no longer regenerate lost damage. She needs to repair her catapults if they get damaged (maybe with tape? Each tape could provide a good chunk of hp anyway, like 50% each)

I like this

[4 Da LOLs]

55 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Woodlegs slow on land? I'm sorry but this is false. His drawback is that he has a huge sanity penalty while on land...

As a Woodlegs main in DS this comment rubs me the wrong way.. sorry not sorry

sorry im yet to unlock woodlegs so i don't know their stats by heart

i was kinda thinking on the idea of Winona rework maybe have the catapults require a operator  kinda like the wranggler in tf2

but it only works while "wrangled" making her need more skill actually having to aim the shots this would also make her more engaging and less op since youd only have one catapult active at a time this would also give her a nerf less efficient more fun

im thinking stats like...

you need to be on the catapult like mounting it for it to function

an extreme boost of fire rate

manually aimed shots would make them better for base defense putting you in control of where the rocks hit