[Guide] Really simple liquid cooling - efficient and versatile (plus Save file)

[Grimgaw]

9 hours ago, Saturnus said:

I think this was what you meant to say.

I'm certain that I've seen you and Life abuse (borg cube) and propagate (Twitch/YT) them too though.

Just as a reminder - there are guidelines up top. This is written there:

Quote

Exploitation: You may not exploit bugs within any game systems or community pages for your own benefit or for the benefit of any other individual. If a bug is found please report the issue in the appropriate support forum!

This is general forum.

[Saturnus]

8 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

I'm certain that I've seen you and Life abuse (borg cube) and propagate (Twitch/YT) them too though.

And in that you are completely wrong.

1) @Lifegrow has always been against using a Borg cube because he find it "oh so wonderfully dirty".

2) I do not stream or make videos (unless you count videos where I explain higher dimensional geometry math).

[Kabrute]

@ImDaMisterL because to far off topic

[Grimgaw]

3 hours ago, Saturnus said:

And in that you are completely wrong.

1) @Lifegrow has always been against using a Borg cube because he find it "oh so wonderfully dirty".

2) I do not stream or make videos (unless you count videos where I explain higher dimensional geometry math).

Am I completely wrong though?

1) You're de facto creator of Borg Cube

2) Life streams and makes videos using exploits (don't need to look far... this thread is prime example).

[Saturnus]

7 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Am I completely wrong though?

Yes. You are completely wrong. No amount of rewording can make your statement valid.

[Cypher-7]

I was under the impression that klei has never stated if drip cooling was a bug or a feature? Correct my if I’m wrong.

[Lifegrow]

7 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

This is general forum.

It is a general forum, however this is not thread specific - so i'd direct your attention to this :-

Quote

 

1. Have fun!
2. Be respectful.
3. Don’t be a jerk.
4. Stay on topic.

I fear you may have violated a few/all yourself  

[JoeW]

Please keep posts on topic and polite. Thank you. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 4/15/2018 at 11:46 PM, CantBreathe said:

Since the beginning there have been three influential members of the Klei ONI forum: @Kasuha , @Saturnus , and @Lifegrow. They are known for their innovative designs and love for the game.

However, collectively they've discovered, abused, and propagated many bugs and exploits, some which trivialize otherwise challenging features of the game. A lot of their builds can do amazing things for a player that would otherwise not be possible.

It's very tempting to abuse the game to make things easier or work differently than intended. (It's cheating, but you're only cheating yourself so w/e)

Using the exploits is in the same boat as repeatedly reloading the game to get the 'random' outcome you prefer, I respect your right to do it, but there should be a sub-forum for that content. (Or a sub forum specifically for the opposite.)

I don't think I'm "holier than thou" for feeling that way but I was in to 'cheat codes' when I was 12.

 

I think you're taking the wrong view of this.  If this were a finalized game, then perhaps you might have something.  However, this is Alpha. They're not even to Beta testing yet.  However, they are still allowing us to play.   In addition to the extra man power looking for bugs, this also allows the developers to see how other minds might use their designs in a way they were not intended.

There are many parts of ONI that are not yet working as intended, leading to a more difficult game experience than intended.  For example, the early game food situation or how pipes behave in a room with low pressure or a vaccuum.

By showing us their ideas, the forum posters are giving us the tools to explore a different set of ideas.  I remember a while back when the Thermal upgrade first came out.  I was trying to get an electrolyzer set up that wouldn't overheat my base.  I tried open-air base designs, a variety of wheezewort placements, etc, and nothing seemed to work.  Then I read a post about how to use wheezeworts to pump the air from the electrolyzer into the base and was able to solve my problem.  Up to that point, I had not thought of using the wheezewort itself as the pump.  It allowed me to get past that point and explore other aspects of the game.

If you wish to never explore things beyond what "the developers intended," that is fine.  Do you know exactly how the developers intended each item to be used?  Is the ability to build hand pumps out of obsidian intentional so that we can move lava around in small units?  Or is that an exploit?  How do the developers intend for us to use Steam Generators when hot geyser output is so minuscule and pumping steam melts the pumps?  

I can't speak for the developers of ONI, but I can speak from my own experience when developing code.  The designer and programmer are not always able to see how every piece will interact once it is put together.  Sometimes an interaction that appears strange is actually an intended process.  Sometimes its a bug.  Sometimes it was not expected, but the developer says, "Oh, that's cool.  I think I'll keep that."  

Without our input -- our posts on the forums, whether they are a discussion or a bug report -- it would take much longer to develop a game such as this.  I would like to encourage @Lifegrow, @Saturnus, @Kasuha and others to continue posting their discoveries on the forums.  Their "What if?" thinking is something to be encouraged.  It is how discoveries and advancements are made in the real world.  Do you remember the old "wall wort" power supply plugs? Remember how they got hot?  That's because they used a transformer to step down the voltage from the wall to a usable voltage.  The transformer got hot, because the transformer portion was always in operation, whether you were using the device or not.  Its why people often encourage you to unplug devices that are not being used. Do you know why the newer cellphone chargers don't get hot if you leave them plugged in? Its because someone looked at an inductor and said, "What if instead of using it to smooth out and maintain a steady current, I use it to bounce voltage?"  It was completely contrary to how "everyone" believed an inductor should be used, but it introduced an innovation in technology that let us reduce the size and energy loss in just about all the products we use today.

@CantBreathe, let your creativity go.  Start asking, "What if I did this?  What happens when I do that?"  I think you'll find that the game becomes more enjoyable.  If you come up with something that is cool, post about it! If you think its against the intended behavior, post about it!  This is an Alpha, and the developers let us play because our feedback helps them see what they might otherwise miss.

 

[CantBreathe]

@KittenIsAGeek 

I appreciate your perspective and also encourage others to build and create. 
Again, I acknowledge each players right to play the game however they choose.

I love the game and come to the forum to see what cool new builds others have come up with.
More often than not though, it's an amalgamation of exploits or bugs.

I wish the creators of the community would shift their focus to more practical builds and agree not to exploit bugs because they can.
I'm vocal about it, but not the only one who feels that way, so the community is divided in that sense.

 

Edit:

Also, the ones who are against the dissemination of exploits and wish they were (appropriately) kept in the bug tracker are judged and mocked for lacking creativity, being too strict, or trying to control others. The beta KSP community took that turn early on with mods, and the game released with only 40% of it's planned features because "there's already a mod for that". The mods are unsupported, unbalanced, and unstable but that's the game we got.  

Of course anyone against that popular opinion was mocked. "Then don't use the mods" ect. You just don't get it or why it matters.

 

[Lifegrow]

34 minutes ago, CantBreathe said:

Also, the ones who are against the dissemination of exploits and wish they were (appropriately) kept in the bug tracker are judged and mocked for lacking creativity, being too strict, or trying to control others. The beta KSP community took that turn early on with mods, and the game released with only 40% of it's planned features because "there's already a mod for that". The mods are unsupported, unbalanced, and unstable but that's the game we got.  

I don't think your reply constitutes staying on topic.

But as you've mentioned it - I've never seen anybody "mocked" openly on the forums for having a stance against exploits? I've seen two sides of the same argument many times - but it normally just comes down to "you play how you want to play, and i'll do my thing" - which seems to be your attitude too, is it not?

39 minutes ago, CantBreathe said:

Again, I acknowledge each players right to play the game however they choose.

That's what you say anyway.

But whilst you've derailed the thread anyway, i'd just point out that for somebody who's so vocal, and has such strong opinions about exploits, bugs and general issues with the game - maybe you could always try posting a few yourself... There's plenty out there.

Spoiler

 

[PhailRaptor]

4 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I don't think your reply constitutes staying on topic.

But as you've mentioned it - I've never seen anybody "mocked" openly on the forums for having a stance against exploits? I've seen two sides of the same argument many times - but it normally just comes down to "you play how you want to play, and i'll do my thing" - which seems to be your attitude too, is it not?

I don't disagree with that position, with one caveat.  If you are intentionally using an exploit in a build, and you intend to post that build, it is your duty to disclose that information, and indicate to the best of your knowledge where it is occurring and how strong the effect is.

There is a fine line between exposing a bug/exploit for it to be fixed, and popularizing it.  Documentation is often the deciding actor.

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 minute ago, CantBreathe said:

@KittenIsAGeek 

I appreciate your perspective and also encourage others to build and create. 
Again, I acknowledge each players right to play the game however they choose.

I love the game and come to the forum to see what cool new builds others have come up with.
More often than not though, it's an amalgamation of exploits or bugs.

I wish the creators of the community would shift their focus to more practical builds and agree not exploit bugs because they can.
I'm vocal about it, but not the only one who feels that way, so the community is divided in that sense.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but it appears to me that more things are posted that do not touch bugs or exploits than anything else.  There are also a good number of posts where someone labels something a bug or exploit when it is neither.  For example, the discussion in this thread regarding @Luminite2's Borg Cube alternatives.  There are also cases where its nearly impossible to get an item to even work (Steam Generators) without utilizing at least one "exploit."  There's a thread somewhere with a very long discussion over whether or not its an exploit to use doors to get the steam generators operational.  

There are also a number of posts that sound exactly like what you're looking for; but every single one of them has devolved into discussions over whether or not something was an exploit.  There was a thread on "How do you run your power grid mid-game" and another on "how do you set up your water supply for bathrooms" where along the way someone would post what they built and someone else would cry "exploit."  My point here is that everyone has a different perspective.  How you think a building should be used is different than how someone else sees the same building.

I'm not saying that you aren't entitled to your opinion.  I am, however, wondering if perhaps you're seeing a problem that doesn't really exist.  It benefits the developers FAR more if we break stuff than if we do things exactly "how its intended."  For that matter, without a direct post from the developers, its impossible to determine exactly how they intended something to be used.  An example would be fixed output temperature buildings.  I believe the developers stated that they are working as intended.  Does that mean its intentional so that we have a way to delete heat?

If the creators of the community shift their focus to more practical builds and agree to not exploit bugs, it would be a disservice to both the community and the developers.  There would be no discussions over whether or not some method was intentional or a bug. There would be a LOT more complaints about the lack of story or a need for more content.  The developers might miss critical problems that would most definitely be exploited once the game reaches production.  A good example of this would be the first hydroponic generation of Bristle Blossoms.  There are posts showing how to "exploit" the piping system to feed water to each Blossom at a specific rate because, at the time, the Blossoms in hydroponic tiles would take much more water than they needed.  If you hooked your Blossom farm up directly to your water supply, your water would be gone in nothing flat.

What you, and others, have been asking for is something that I might agree with, if Oxygen Not Included was in its final state.  Since this game is currently in an Alpha state, we will get a far better game in the end if we try to stuff a square peg into a round hole.  

[CantBreathe]

@KittenIsAGeek 
I think I'm understanding your point better, the game is in alpha so the discovery and discussion of exploits is important feedback for the developers. I've been speaking as if to imply the community as a whole supports exploitative META. I thank you for your thoughtful insight.
 

 

Spoiler

 @Lifegrow  Let's not get personal and start digging through accounts. I wouldn't want to upset your 500 subscribers.

 

[Oozinator]

3 hours ago, CantBreathe said:

  Hide contents

 @Lifegrow  Let's not get personal and start digging through accounts. I wouldn't want to upset your 500 subscribers.

Perhaps you should communicate with LG per PM, to discuss your position.
Open an own thread, where you start this discussion perhaps?
 

[WanderingKid]

6 hours ago, CantBreathe said:

[with some editing in context... snip]

I wish the creators of the community would shift their focus to more practical builds and agree not to exploit bugs because they can.

The beta KSP community took that turn early on with mods, and the game released with only 40% of it's planned features because "there's already a mod for that". The mods are unsupported, unbalanced, and unstable but that's the game we got.  

 

6 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

There is a fine line between exposing a bug/exploit for it to be fixed, and popularizing it.  Documentation is often the deciding actor.

and @Grimgaw

You're all tackling a few things all at once in this discussion.  I'd like to drop my $0.02 in for you guys, for what that's worth.

These *are* the creators of the community, like it or not.  Same way Just Jim, Danny, and others are the community in KSP.  But I think you're looking at the wrong list of people in the community.  This is more akin to Dwarf Fortress than it is to KSP.  But, in that vein, would you say that stock only KSP didn't have tons of built in glitches that were actually smoothed out by the mods?  It took until KSP 1.2 (1.2.1?  I forget) to get aero straightened out and Rapiers to be necessary and fixing gravity turns instead of hanging a right at 10k.  Exploding drills and borked radiators.  Many other things.

That dev team started as one dude who wanted to take a break from his 'real' job, and eventually became what it is today.

However, I think you're looking at this wrong.  Dwarf Fortress is *notorious* for it's glitches.  # of people on the development team doesn't matter.  What matters is that those glitches or mechanic interations created some of the most fun, and funniest, community discussions around.  Just look up 'Dwarven Daycare', 'Minecart Water Shotgun', and most if not all forms of Forgotten Beast farming, if you're really interested in some insane discussions.  They were all glitches or 'improvements' made to the game eventually that started out as a 'thing'.  The community (and I) have changed since it started, but the community were the ones who figured out how to abuse those bugs for fun and profit, and helped Toady to decide which ones needed to be eventually corrected, perhaps with an alternative that wasn't quite so exploitive.  I had a small voice in that, but was still part of it.

It was also still fun.  It's also the reason we finally got minecarts to behave in the game simulator.  AFAIK that STILL isn't fixed and they still teleport all over the place, but without the community abusing the mechanics to the point of pulling it apart in millimeters we'd probably still be guessing at how some if it ended up behaving at all.  But remember, if you're not in ASCII, you're NOT playing the game the way it was MEANT to be played!  From there, it's all downhill.

So, at the end of the day... is the loudest members of a community who discuss ways to manipulate the game mechanics and show new techniques really a problem?  For example, is soaking an Auto-Sweeper in over 0kg but less than 300kg of cool water abusing a mechanic?  How about dripping PH2O output from NGGs?  How about the shipping dragging itself over metal squares instead of open air to cool itself off at geometrically large rates?

The Borg Cube is an over the top and hysterical iteration of the general question: What is an abusive mechanic, and what should be avoided by anyone looking to not abuse those mechanics?  To answer that you have to decide what those mechanics are, and what they *should* have been.  Without those same community members having these discussions at all, the iterations would never occur.

Would I love to see more exhaustive coverage on standard play and techniques?  Sure.  Do I care to go watch 5,000 hours of YouTube to go find a few of them that actually interest me because they're usually behind on the techniques than I am?  Oh hells no.  I don't even want to waste 4 of my own hours on a regular basis.  These members who come up with the really interesting and edge case techniques are the ones that usually fascinate me.  Do I always use these concerns in my own game?  Nope, usually because I assume a dev will eventually clean that out of the Alpha build we're currently screwing around in and I'm a creature of habit. 

I think you're approaching the concerns in the wrong context.  Should these perhaps be more bug related kind of posts?  Probably.  But those things just aren't exciting to either record, edit, or post... or watch.  They're dry and boring.  What's wrong with these things when they're done more enjoyably?  Drip cooling hasn't been around since the last release, it's moved in and is currently remodeling the garage as a bedroom.  It's also been well documented in the bug forums.  So, truly... what's the big deal?