[Guide] Really simple liquid cooling - efficient and versatile (plus Save file)

[Cypher-7]

Great build, great design, excellent write up. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I’m going to try this weekend putting this together in my current colony. I’m at the perfect point tech wise to implement both builds! 

[Lifegrow]

3 hours ago, Luminite2 said:

 

You're aware that both of your designs are using the same surface cooling bug right ?

The same bug you said the following about up above :

On 12/04/2018 at 7:45 PM, Luminite2 said:

Yes. Aquatuners do not delete heat on their own, they only move it. Any system that achieves net cooling with an aquatuner is deleting heat somehow. This one uses the bug, clearly indicated by the fact that the aquatuner output just dumps on top of itself, completely trivializing heat management, a core part of the game.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Cypher-7 said:

Great build, great design, excellent write up. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I’m going to try this weekend putting this together in my current colony. I’m at the perfect point tech wise to implement both builds! 

You're very welcome buddy. Best of luck  

[Luminite2]

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

You're aware that both of your designs are using the same surface cooling bug right ?

How petty.

This is very straightforward. You mention earlier that it is very difficult to avoid the bug; you are absolutely correct. However, while it isn't easy to avoid triggering the bug, it is easy to avoid exploiting it.

I very clearly indicate in that post which mechanics the designs are based on; neither is based on the surface cooling bug. It is entirely possible that the bug could be triggered by them while running, but if so, any potential cooling from it is tiny in comparison to the significant cooling provided by each design's primary mechanic. I don't think any doublethink is required to say that builds like that are categorically different from builds like the Borg cube.

[Lifegrow]

I don't think it's petty to ask a question. I wasn't sure if you were genuinely unaware or not, for all I know you're a new player.

 

22 minutes ago, Luminite2 said:

It is entirely possible that the bug could be triggered by them while running, but if so, any potential cooling from it is tiny in comparison to the significant cooling provided by each design's primary mechanic.

There is no tiny amount of exploit. It either is present or is not.

Take my build for example - i'm blending hot water into my cooling pool - does that mean i'm using less of the exploit? 

Honestly I did say above that too many threads get derailed by this same nonsensical argument - I just wanted to check if by posting your own builds you possibly thought you'd managed to evade the bug. Obviously now I know you were aware you hadn't; but posted them anyway. Nowhere within your thread did you state "Just fyi guys - these both use the exact same bug that the borg cube uses..."

You phrased it as if your builds were somehow less exploit filled, or could be used with a cleaner conscience. 

"I've even seen some people indicate that they use it only because they feel there is no alternative way to get the cooling they need.

So, I decided to look into two other heat deletion methods which people may feel less bad about using. My hope is that there is some subset of the community that A) has a lot of cooling to do, B) doesn't want to use the Borg cube for moral reasons, and C) does not have a moral objection to at least one of the following methods."

[Luminite2]

2 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

There is no tiny amount of exploit. It either is present or is not.

I disagree with this. In fact, the use of a given exploit can actually be quantified. A simple test for a cooling design: if the surface cooling bug gets fixed tomorrow, how much net cooling can the design provide? The answer lets you figure out how much a given design relies on it. For the Borg cube, the answer is 0 Watts. For the build in this thread, the answer is also 0 Watts (so, no, your blending doesn't matter). For the builds in the other thread, the answer ranges between roughly 200,000 and 800,000 Watts.

If for some reason you're thinking that the builds in that thread lose anything even close to 200-800 kW due to the bug, then post the concern over there and we can figure it out together. 

[Oozinator]

2 hours ago, Luminite2 said:

I disagree with this.

I don't get the point. This thread was about some help for "noobs" and now it's about splitting hairs.
You can't be a "little" pregnant, if it comes to exploits..
Lifegrow did a good job explaining things, how to trigger it and that means he gave a help, to prevent triggering it (when player wants that).
When someone do not like Lifegrows overunity machines, build your own, better one and share it.
To easy to trigger it accidentally..
 

[Stoof]

7 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

You're aware that both of your designs are using the same surface cooling bug right ?

While I'm very very sorry for your thread being turned into this, you're a smart guy, surely you can see a difference between a cool system that exploits a bug and a cooling system that causes a bug.

I actually can't see where Luminite2's 2nd build could cause the bug, though I freely admit I don't have the same grasp of the ins and outs of the bug as yourself.

[Lifegrow]

3 hours ago, Luminite2 said:

I disagree with this. In fact, the use of a given exploit can actually be quantified. A simple test for a cooling design: if the surface cooling bug gets fixed tomorrow, how much net cooling can the design provide? The answer lets you figure out how much a given design relies on it. For the Borg cube, the answer is 0 Watts. For the build in this thread, the answer is also 0 Watts (so, no, your blending doesn't matter). For the builds in the other thread, the answer ranges between roughly 200,000 and 800,000 Watts.

If for some reason you're thinking that the builds in that thread lose anything even close to 200-800 kW due to the bug, then post the concern over there and we can figure it out together. 

Nonsense - if the bug was fixed, and your builds inevitably overheated and shut down - they too will provide 0w. You seem to have no idea how your own builds work, or where the exploit is even occurring - even your maths doesn't factor in for pump heat generation, etc. Your builds rely on the exact same exploit to function, so there's no point you coming to me with spurious figures.

There are a dozen bugs that could be fixed at any time - this is early access, and it's something we were all made aware of when we bought the game. What an inept argument to make. If submerged liquid vents being bugged with pressure was fixed tomorrow - both of your builds would be knackered. 

We're playing with the tools available to us at any given moment. Arguing about potential future fixes which may never happen is not only futile - it's moronic. Kindly stop.

1 hour ago, Stoof said:

While I'm very very sorry for your thread being turned into this, you're a smart guy, surely you can see a difference between a cool system that exploits a bug and a cooling system that causes a bug.

I actually can't see where Luminite2's 2nd build could cause the bug, though I freely admit I don't have the same grasp of the ins and outs of the bug as yourself.

Don't be sorry bud, i'm not - i'll happily spend a few minutes to educate someone on throwing stones from glass houses. It's no different than me hopping ingame to build something for a new players post - and i'm quite a quick typist  

Also - 2nd build - the 40degree output water from the sieve - have a look where it's outputting.

[Luminite2]

1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

Nonsense - if the bug was fixed, and your builds inevitably overheated and shut down - they too will provide 0w. You seem to have no idea how your own builds work, or where the exploit is even occurring - even your maths doesn't factor in for pump heat generation, etc. Your builds rely on the exact same exploit to function, so there's no point you coming to me with spurious figures.

I see the problem; you don't seem to understand how they work. Maybe you didn't actually read the post? I suggest this because you accuse me of not factoring in pump heat generation, when I clearly do inside the math spoilers. In general it's totally fine if you didn't, but if you're going to attack me over it then you should.

They absolutely do NOT rely on the surface cooling exploit. Polluted water boiling into steam loses about a 3rd of its heat capacity, which drives the cooling in the first build. I'm pretty sure you understand how the fixed output works in the second.

As for where the sieve output gets pumped: what do you mean? Yes, it leverages the water re-pollution mechanic which some could consider an exploit, but that's not the surface cooling bug. Yes, it will cool the surrounding polluted water, but those tiles are all full-mass, so the bug shouldn't result in heat loss. To prevent further miscommunication, would you mind being fully explicit about where you believe the builds rely on surface cooling? Feel free to bring this to the other thread, since it seems that it will become very specific to those builds. I think we can finish this up in one or two more rounds.

1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

We're playing with the tools available to us at any given moment. Arguing about potential future fixes which may never happen is not only futile - it's moronic. Kindly stop.

I'm not arguing that the potential fixing of the bug is a reason not to exploit it, because you're right, that doesn't make much sense. I was just using that as a thought experiment to determine how much a given build relies on the bug. This isn't to determine the build's robustness to future change, but rather to determine whether a player who doesn't want to exploit the bug (but who is OK with the other mechanics used) can feel OK about using it in their game. 

[Lifegrow]

9 hours ago, Luminite2 said:

I see the problem; you don't seem to understand how they work. Maybe you didn't actually read the post? I suggest this because you accuse me of not factoring in pump heat generation, when I clearly do inside the math spoilers. In general it's totally fine if you didn't, but if you're going to attack me over it then you should.

Sorry - this was my mistake, I did indeed miss the pump math. 

9 hours ago, Luminite2 said:

They absolutely do NOT rely on the surface cooling exploit. Polluted water boiling into steam loses about a 3rd of its heat capacity, which drives the cooling in the first build. I'm pretty sure you understand how the fixed output works in the second.

But...they do though, and you acknowledged this when you started quantifying exploit usage in your builds. I don't understand why you're arguing the fact.

9 hours ago, Luminite2 said:

Yes, it will cool the surrounding polluted water, but those tiles are all full-mass, so the bug shouldn't result in heat loss.

Your temperature will immediately average out with 3 tiles surrounding the vent. Those three surrounding tiles will then cool the 14 tiles below them - this is in part down to the vent itself being a big chunk of metal. Albeit it'll be hard for you to clearly see it because of the temp shift plates, but i'm certain if you deconstructed your build into component parts and ran them without a submerged vent (easy in debug) it'd start cooking.

I'm keeping this short and sweet as I really cbf discussing your builds any more truth be told.

[Luminite2]

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

But...they do though, and you acknowledged this when you started quantifying exploit usage in your builds. I don't understand why you're arguing the fact.

I'm sorry if I wasn't being clear. I originally thought that you were accusing me of presenting a build that could potentially trigger the bug accidentally, which is always a risk whenever any column of liquid is two or more tiles tall and has less mass in the top tile. I see now that you were accusing me of relying on the bug to generate the cooling numbers I presented, which is patently false.

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

Your temperature will immediately average out with 3 tiles surrounding the vent. Those three surrounding tiles will then cool the 14 tiles below them - this is in part down to the vent itself being a big chunk of metal. Albeit it'll be hard for you to clearly see it because of the temp shift plates, but i'm certain if you deconstructed your build into component parts and ran them without a submerged vent (easy in debug) it'd start cooking.

I'm keeping this short and sweet as I really cbf discussing your builds any more truth be told.

I get that you don't really want to discuss it; that's fine. It looks like you don't have a full understanding of the bug (which is totally fine; I had this same misunderstanding until very recently); I'm gonna post some stuff here that may be informative for anybody else who is also confused about the surface cooling bug.

The bug is that a tile of liquid that is colder than the tile below (if the same type) will swap temperatures with it, but not swap mass. However, this interaction is limited to adjacent tiles; the cold tile will only swap temp with one tile below. Observe:

Spoiler

Columns of 375K water, 500 grams of 280K water placed on top. Immediately after cold water spawns:

 

A moment later, the cold temperature has swapped with the single tile immediately below:

After reaching equilbrium, we see that the right column has cooled more than the left, which would not be the case if the entire column were subjected to the bug:

The above deals with situations where the top tile has a lot less mass than the rest of the column's tiles, which is where the bug can be exploited for significant deletion. But what happens if the tiles all have (roughly) the same mass, as is the case in the builds I presented? I repeated the experiment with full columns:

Spoiler

The columns were all filled to max pressure with 375K (101.85C) water (obviously the lower tiles had slightly more mass than the top one, but the difference is less than 10kg per depth). I then replaced the top tile with the same mass (1000kg) of 275K (1.85C) water. Assuming no bug, we would expect this 100K drop to be equally spread out among the tiles in the column, and sure enough, that's what we find:

100K spread over 5 tiles should yield roughly a 20K drop, and that's what we see on the left (slightly less actually due to the aforementioned slight mass differential).

Spread over 2 tiles however should result in a 50K drop, which is what we see on the right.

So, we see that columns of full-mass liquid tiles are not susceptible to exploit-level amounts of heat deletion, so the builds I presented are safe.

What confused me about your response, though, is that you still haven't responded to the core argument that the builds achieve significant cooling from effects that are totally distinct from the surface cooling bug: evaporation and fixed output temperature. The 200kW and 800kW numbers I provided were calculated from these effects (again, clearly indicated in the math spoilers). To be clear: they were calculated based on the effects I was leveraging, and so the presence or absence of any other cooling factors doesn't affect the conclusion that the builds should be achieving at least the stated amount of cooling. You don't have to answer if you're fed up with this, but I'm still wondering how, even in a world where my builds were somehow triggering the bug to any significant degree, you could deny the cooling achieved from those effects.

[Oozinator]

12 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

...You seem to have no idea how your own builds work, or where the exploit is even occurring - even your maths doesn't factor in for pump heat generation, etc...

 

35 minutes ago, Luminite2 said:

... It looks like you don't have a full understanding of the bug (which is totally fine; I had this same misunderstanding until very recently); I'm gonna post some stuff here that may be informative for anybody else who is also confused about the surface cooling bug...

[Kabrute]

I think lifegrow hit it with the vent issue.  I have noticed with my own builds using a vent with a metal rail BESIDE it that the thermal energy passed from my fluid to the vent as it exited the pipe, this then passed from the vent to the rail, before it began trading energy with the other tiles.  This method transfered thermal energy sideways and even up, via vent-metalrail conductance.  This combined with 400kg of mass at the new temp are what give the "Top insertion cooling systems" their real heft because that vent holds and trades the energy long after the liquid flipped......

[avc15]

can someone break down the conditions that trigger the "surface cooling" bug?

 

[Kabrute]

14 minutes ago, avc15 said:

"surface cooling" bug?

cold liquid on top of warm liquid of same material, they trade temps without trading mass, this deletes heat. the smaller the top layers weight, the bigger the difference in mass, the greater the cooling effect.  the kicker in these systems though is that people tend to disregard the holding power of the vents themselves when they run debug tests.  These vents hold substantial thermal inertia and keep cooling their cell driving the cold down again, and again, amplifying the cooling factor in itself....

[Cypher-7]

Does this have the same effect with heat? If I pumped hot water from a steam geyser into a pool of cool water would I end up heating that pool faster then intended? Or does it cool the hot water more then it should?

[Kabrute]

the heat would propagate as intended, however the cold cools more than it should

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

1 hour ago, Cypher-7 said:

Does this have the same effect with heat? If I pumped hot water from a steam geyser into a pool of cool water would I end up heating that pool faster then intended? Or does it cool the hot water more then it should?

no.no.no.

[Lifegrow]

@Luminite2 I'd genuinely hoped to nip into debug - reconstruct your 2nd build and highlight the cooling exploit.

So I did. I built it, tinkered, deconstructed, re-built it - stressed it. Re-built it some more. Couldn't break it. I owe you an apology buddy.

I even moved the vents to the bottom of the pool, removed the oil, filled every tile - etc. Alas, it works like a charm. Absolutely solid build. 

 

Spoiler

Honestly, I did.

Your first build however, not so much. Removing the tempshifts and relocating the input vent did kind of bork the build somewhat.

Regardless, I'm sorry for being so abrasive, i'd wrongly assumed that your upper liquid tiles weren't filled, and that was where you were getting bonus cooling - having tested it myself credit where it's due - awesome build.

Cuddle?

 

[Luminite2]

@Lifegrow It's all good man; I'm glad we got it figured out. I'm sorry that your thread got hijacked.

I'm not sure exactly what happened with the first build, but I definitely believe you; the second build is a lot cleaner and felt less finicky.

A cuddle sounds good lol <3

[MorsDux]

forum life would die off if they fixed the drip cooling bug!

[CantBreathe]

Since the beginning there have been three influential members of the Klei ONI forum: @Kasuha , @Saturnus , and @Lifegrow. They are known for their innovative designs and love for the game.

However, collectively they've discovered, abused, and propagated many bugs and exploits, some which trivialize otherwise challenging features of the game. A lot of their builds can do amazing things for a player that would otherwise not be possible.

It's very tempting to abuse the game to make things easier or work differently than intended. (It's cheating, but you're only cheating yourself so w/e)

Using the exploits is in the same boat as repeatedly reloading the game to get the 'random' outcome you prefer, I respect your right to do it, but there should be a sub-forum for that content. (Or a sub forum specifically for the opposite.)

I don't think I'm "holier than thou" for feeling that way but I was in to 'cheat codes' when I was 12.

 

[MorsDux]

11 hours ago, CantBreathe said:

Since the beginning there have been three influential members of the Klei ONI forum: @Kasuha , @Saturnus , and @Lifegrow. They are known for their innovative designs and love for the game.

However, collectively they've discovered, abused, and propagated many bugs and exploits, some which trivialize otherwise challenging features of the game. A lot of their builds can do amazing things for a player that would otherwise not be possible.

It's very tempting to abuse the game to make things easier or work differently than intended. (It's cheating, but you're only cheating yourself so w/e)

Using the exploits is in the same boat as repeatedly reloading the game to get the 'random' outcome you prefer, I respect your right to do it, but there should be a sub-forum for that content. (Or a sub forum specifically for the opposite.)

I don't think I'm "holier than thou" for feeling that way but I was in to 'cheat codes' when I was 12.

 

There is no definitive answer on this matter, as axioms behind peoples thinking differentiate. The devs would rather fix the bug than overmoderate the forum contents. Up until then, never forget that this is a single player game, if you can do almost everything without these exploits, good for you, you have the right to look down on ppl playing with other sets of axioms, it wont make you neither right nor popular tho;)

[Lifegrow]

12 hours ago, CantBreathe said:

Since the beginning there have been three influential members of the Klei ONI forum: @Kasuha , @Saturnus , and @Lifegrow. They are known for their innovative designs and love for the game.

However, collectively they've discovered, abused, and propagated many bugs and exploits, some which trivialize otherwise challenging features of the game. A lot of their builds can do amazing things for a player that would otherwise not be possible.

I daren't speak for @Saturnus or @Kasuha but as far as i'm aware we've all been heavily involved in trying to get bugs fixed. Raising awareness of a bug/exploit is often in the hope it'll be remedied - and there are numerous posts in the bug tracker where providing a video or walkthrough just of how gamebreaking a bug can be has actively forced the devs hand in some cases. Most recent example for myself being the dreaded debris drop bug.

You're welcome.

 

[Saturnus]

15 hours ago, CantBreathe said:

However, collectively they've discovered, reported, and suggested solutions for many bugs and exploits, some which trivialize otherwise challenging features of the game. A lot of their builds can do amazing things for a player that would otherwise not be possible.

I think this was what you meant to say.