No More Nerfs; Why No Character is "OP"

[Ressayez]

Alas, an infrequent return from Ressayez to see "what's up" with DST updates and the users of this very forum.

Here's a thought: We don't need any more nerfs, and no character in this game as of the time of writing this is "overpowered." Why advocate for nerfing characters when no character is clearly game-breaking or overpowered?

A quick review of who I've seen decried as overpowered recently:
Wendy, Wigfrid, Maxwell, Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, Webber, WX-78, (DS) Willow, (DS) Woodie, this is nearly every character excluding Wilson and Wes. I repeat, this is nearly every character excluding Wilson and Wes.

This game and its single player counterpart are tough, or at least they can be when a player is first starting out. Eventually the player will learn the ropes, and eventually if they stick around they can learn how to bend the world to their will through use of fire farms (that may I put a reminder here, a good fire farm in DST requires a Star Caller's Staff, a late game item from The Ruins, not to mention the many gears) or mass production of Wickerbottom's "On Tentacles," ect. However this is only after many hours spent of trial and error and/or the occasional reading over at the Don't Starve wiki. In addition to the prior experience needed for the player to enjoy DST's equivalent of fully automated gay luxury space communism, it requires time and patience. Though I've never personally built a fabled "mega base" with dozens of bunny hutches situated next to spider dens, I can't imagine feats like these were done within an hour.

Complaining and asking the development team to nerf a character because they have different stats, items or powers, is just plain silly. A character and their perks making a task such as slaying weak enemies, chopping wood, creating torches for the night or management of their various stats easier, does not make a character overpowered, it makes them plain old empowered. Yes, that's right, Woodie gets an axe that eliminates the need for worrying about the tool's durability or the costly ingredients (a whole piece of flint and a stick) needed for construction of axes and an alternate form that in DST makes for a good nightmare farmer and gatherer of berry bushes. A character that requires the player to be of high skill to properly use them should not be considered overpowered, and neither should a character like Wigfrid with her alternative resource armour and her x1.25 damage modifier. On top of that, balancing of this game's cast is not a huge issue to begin with as it's not a competitive game.

Nerfing every character that isn't Wilson or Wes because they could potentially be "overpowered" when in the right hands is not only ridiculous, but is taking the fun out of these characters, and this is coming from a guy who takes the fun out of everything.

In conclusion, Wes is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. His ability to go insane ON THE FLY, RIGHT AS HE SPAWNS IS BREAKING THE META GAME.

[Flare2V]

One could argue that if a character were to take all of the challenge out of the game it could ruin the survival experience for anyone going through the game for the first time. WX almost achieves this with his absurd health pool and ability to bypass the spoilage system. Doesn't necessarily warrant nerfs, though.

 

Not to say redesigning underwhelming characters is a bad thing. Maxwell's makeover from DS to DST was absolutely fantastic, it's a shame I can't say the same for woodie or willow.

[Maslak]

2 hours ago, Ressayez said:

Wes is overpowered and needs to be nerfed

Here we go again bois

[Donke60]

3 hours ago, Flare2V said:

Not to say redesigning underwhelming characters is a bad thing. Maxwell's makeover from DS to DST was absolutely fantastic, it's a shame I can't say the same for woodie or willow.

I actually don't mind woodie makeover but yeah I agree the only one in DS that needs a makeover is willow and in the base game it would be warly just a tad bit.

Besides it really doesn't matter what happens to the characters anyway people who love there character will find away I've never seen a character gone so far into the dirt the people will never do them for some it makes them more likable that way "hint,hint"

3 hours ago, Maslak said:

Here we go again bois

I already did a thread on this derp  actually I have balloons scattered all over my map

[Ressayez]

31 minutes ago, Flare2V said:

One could argue that if a character were to take all of the challenge out of the game it could ruin the survival experience for anyone going through the game for the first time. WX almost achieves this with his absurd health pool and ability to bypass the spoilage system. Doesn't necessarily warrant nerfs, though.

 

Not to say redesigning underwhelming characters is a bad thing. Maxwell's makeover from DS to DST was absolutely fantastic, it's a shame I can't say the same for woodie or willow.

Not an issue in DS, as Wilson is the first character the player has access to, but in DST... I've run into a few people in their first few hours of play, a couple of them had unknowingly chosen the challenge character.

Regardless, I can't say I feel as though any character ruins the survival experience. To get WX's max stats requires over a dozen gears and surviving until you can get those gears, and then once obtained... be permitted to use those gears by the server host and company, the best of luck with that if there is multiple WX players.

[Mr.Tarunio]

The character war is a pointless argument. All characters have there own downsides and upsides, its all preference to one's liking as everyone is not the same. And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

3 hours ago, Ressayez said:

Wes is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. His ability to go insane ON THE FLY, RIGHT AS HE SPAWNS IS BREAKING THE META GAME.

 

[Rellimarual]

It's true that 100% of the topics about this stuff are pointless wankery, but my impression is that that is precisely why they proliferate. Getting really worked up and squandering time and effort on arguing over tiny differences in rankings of this over that, or debating endlessly over how something could be adjusted is some people's idea of fun, like talking about sports. As long as no one (especially the devs) takes it too seriously, I don't see the harm in it.

[mochilo]

4 hours ago, Ressayez said:

excluding Wes.

[...]

it's not a competitive game

Obvious troll is obvious. Inb4 admin closes the thread, reason trollbait.

Oh wait. Maybe this saves you for today.

4 hours ago, Ressayez said:

Wes is overpowered

 

[CaptainChaotica]

(slow clap) Bravo, bravo!  Very well said.  People have different skill levels in Together, and while the "easier" characters may seem overpowered to experienced players, to newbies they can provided a needed transition into the game.  Another reason I say it's a good thing to start off on regular Don't Starve, if possible...there's a REASON why the original game gates you through the different characters in a specific order!   Brand new newbies have absolutely no idea.  I once ran into a hold-my-hand-and-do-everything-for-me noob who was playing Wes.  WES.

(Even better, this was happening on the "How to Survive" server--the one that's insanely overrun with walruses?  Yeah.)

Personally I'm more interested in seeing the "gay luxury space communism"in DST that you speak of.  Although I'm not sure where we're getting the "space" part from...is it perhaps an Oxygen Not Included colony instead?    (Hey, the Duplicants ARE kind of androgynous looking...)

...Notorious

[KoreanWaffles]

9 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Personally I'm more interested in seeing the "gay luxury space communism"in DST that you speak of.  Although I'm not sure where we're getting the "space" part from...is it perhaps an Oxygen Not Included colony instead?    (Hey, the Duplicants ARE kind of androgynous looking...)

I think they meant space as in the spaciousness of a really large megabase

Definitely! This is what Ressayez meant about Wes being overpowered. You see, Wes has a significant advantage over all the other characters in Don't Starve Together: Shipwrecked Oxygen Not Included. Wes is the ONLY character who can create balloons. Easy nightmare fuel right? That's only the beginning. By blowing balloons, Wes can store oxygen for later use, which is completely broken if you ask me. This basically eliminates the burden of managing oxygen levels whatsoever. As long as you have Wes on your team, you're guaranteed to reach the "gay luxury space communism" so sought after by so many players.

[Destros09]

4 minutes ago, KoreanWaffles said:

By blowing balloons, Wes can store oxygen for later use,

But you need rubber for that and you practically need 5 puft in order to produce enough slime for real oxygen storage via balloons.

[AlbertDelRiver]

I was about to say a point but, then quickly realized people aren't taking this thread seriously.

Not that it mattered because it will be disregarded and countered with "my different playstyles and blah blah blah", which translates to people saying different play styles have different rewards, regardless if one play-style is clearly superior more than the other, thus I won't even bother.

 

As for @Ressayez, I totally agree to some extent, nerfs shouldn't happen in any game, instead buffs should be implemented to balance an empowering character, because nerfs literally remove the unique aspects of a character.

[Destros09]

Nerf Maxwells hp, give him 30hp

[LuxuryHeart]

14 hours ago, Ressayez said:

Alas, an infrequent return from Ressayez to see "what's up" with DST updates and the users of this very forum.

Here's a thought: We don't need any more nerfs, and no character in this game as of the time of writing this is "overpowered." Why advocate for nerfing characters when no character is clearly game-breaking or overpowered?

A quick review of who I've seen decried as overpowered recently:
Wendy, Wigfrid, Maxwell, Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, Webber, WX-78, (DS) Willow, (DS) Woodie, this is nearly every character excluding Wilson and Wes. I repeat, this is nearly every character excluding Wilson and Wes.

This game and its single player counterpart are tough, or at least they can be when a player is first starting out. Eventually the player will learn the ropes, and eventually if they stick around they can learn how to bend the world to their will through use of fire farms (that may I put a reminder here, a good fire farm in DST requires a Star Caller's Staff, a late game item from The Ruins, not to mention the many gears) or mass production of Wickerbottom's "On Tentacles," ect. However this is only after many hours spent of trial and error and/or the occasional reading over at the Don't Starve wiki. In addition to the prior experience needed for the player to enjoy DST's equivalent of fully automated gay luxury space communism, it requires time and patience. Though I've never personally built a fabled "mega base" with dozens of bunny hutches situated next to spider dens, I can't imagine feats like these were done within an hour.

Complaining and asking the development team to nerf a character because they have different stats, items or powers, is just plain silly. A character and their perks making a task such as slaying weak enemies, chopping wood, creating torches for the night or management of their various stats easier, does not make a character overpowered, it makes them plain old empowered. Yes, that's right, Woodie gets an axe that eliminates the need for worrying about the tool's durability or the costly ingredients (a whole piece of flint and a stick) needed for construction of axes and an alternate form that in DST makes for a good nightmare farmer and gatherer of berry bushes. A character that requires the player to be of high skill to properly use them should not be considered overpowered, and neither should a character like Wigfrid with her alternative resource armour and her x1.25 damage modifier. On top of that, balancing of this game's cast is not a huge issue to begin with as it's not a competitive game.

Nerfing every character that isn't Wilson or Wes because they could potentially be "overpowered" when in the right hands is not only ridiculous, but is taking the fun out of these characters, and this is coming from a guy who takes the fun out of everything.

In conclusion, Wes is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. His ability to go insane ON THE FLY, RIGHT AS HE SPAWNS IS BREAKING THE META GAME.

I honestly never got the whole, "this character is too powerful argument!"  The only character you can make an argument for is WX-78 IF you get the gears.  400 health, 200 hunger, and 300 sanity is a lot, and his only penalty is a little damage in the rain (which mostly occurs in spring and is counteracted by a simple umbrella and straw hat.  That's the ONLY ONE I can make an argument for.

[Destros09]

How nerfs should be handled.

gears are now carftable

each gear no longer heals, feeds or restores sanity to wx 

gears raise the stats of wx less per gear

[Zeruul]

3 minutes ago, Destros09 said:

How nerfs should be handled.

gears are now carftable

each gear no longer heals, feeds or restores sanity to wx 

gears raise the stats of wx less per gear

I'm glad you're not in charge of balancing the game.

[AlbertDelRiver]

2 minutes ago, Destros09 said:

 

gears are now carftable

 

This is a nerf? If so the recipe must be expensive, right?

[minespatch]

12 hours ago, Flare2V said:

 Maxwell's makeover from DS to DST was absolutely fantastic,

Imagine.... Chibi charlie.

[AlbertDelRiver]

2 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Imagine.... Chibi charlie.

That's some nightmare fuel, I can't imagine her thick body being ruined for game play reasons!

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

Thing is, when you boil it down to game mechanics, picking a character that you will enjoy playing the most and/or that will benefit you or everyone else exponentially is why some characters excel more than others.

Wilson is a standard character, Wes is a challenge one. The others are ones with various perks and drawbacks, however there is a huge imbalance in them. This is why you will rarely, if ever see a professional player take Willow as the character to play as.

Professional players especially will look objectively at the power levels and balances of the game, because they know the game.

In terms of characters that seem too nerfed for what they offer and for what they require from you, tweaking their mechanics so that essentially they are fun to play with MECHANICALLY, while giving a decent drawback for their buff.

In terms of characters being too OP, buffing mobs may even out their perk buffs instead, or changing certain world-related mechanics in some way.

What you cannot say is that currently, objectively, mechanics of all characters are equally balanced and as such, changes need to be applied. I'm sure a relatively decent balance can be found, but it seems like Klei has trouble getting it right. You know, since their core idea of making mobs harder is to just double or tripple their hp for some reason. That's not a challenge, that's just a cheap way of saying "oh, it's harder now", when really it will just take longer to kill a certain thing with possibly more preparation needed; i.e. more boring grinding.

[CaptainChaotica]

Well, I still strongly disagree with the idea that there IS one, _obviously_, objectively, always and no matter what, "superior" playstyle. There may be some that get you more points with the MLG or optimiser/perfectionist crowds...but seriously, as long as it _works_ for them?

DO NOT SHAME THE WAY PEOPLE PLAY!  Unless they're a total noob, in which case, they just need _teaching_.  If they're the type that refuses to learn, roll your eyes and forget about it.  But I very seriously refuse to believe that there IS one objectively "better", full stop, playstyle. There really are only playstyles _that are better for a specific person_. 

I'm sorry, I know this sounds incredibly hippy-dippy "Can't we all just get along?" but there absolutely are NOT, repeat, _not_ any objectively, to everybody, solid FACT, "better" ways of playing.  There are only ways _you_ prefer more, and ways you don't.  Some people just don't care that much about uber-efficiency, learning how to properly kite and single-combat every single boss in the game, making fire farms, mega bases, or getting the most out of the ruins.

And as long as they're _enjoying_ the game and still living a decent amount of time, that's perfectly fine.

I'm sorry, I just...I really hate it when people come in and state their opinions as DEFINITELY better, that's it, I'm right.  It just sounds so _snooty_.  Doesn't matter if you're totally badass in the game; your opinion is still an opinion.

And THAT'S why Ressayez made this thread, and thank god he did.  We seriously need to stop all the competitive playstyle shaming/bickering/Master-Race and Peasant garbage that, essentially, just boils down to:  "MY CHARACTER COULD BEAT UP _YOUR_ CHARACTER!"  "NUH-UH!"  "COULD TOO!"  "COULD NOT!"  Or at least take it to private messages--especially if the thread ends up with several pages' worth that are essentially a conversation between only two people.

Bless this thread.  It DESPERATELY needed to exist.

Now, where is this gay luxury space communist space colony/forest base again, and how do I sign up?

...Notorious

[minespatch]

54 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Now, where is this gay luxury space communist space colony/forest base again, and how do I sign up?

ONI's subforum should be a few blocks away. You can't miss it.

[DatShadowJK]

51 minutes ago, minespatch said:

ONI's subforum should be a few blocks away. You can't miss it.

WERE!

[minespatch]

1 minute ago, DatShadowJK said:

WERE!

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/forum/119-oxygen-not-included-general-discussion/

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/forum/135-oxygen-not-included-art-music-lore/

[CaptainChaotica]

(Well...the problem with that is I kind of haven't actually played it yet.  Heh.)

I have watched a couple Let's Plays, one of them by Jacksepticeye--whose really early-days LP of Don't Starve helped (a) get me into the game by showing me what it played like and (b) gave me several tips on what NOT to do!  Sips, who did my favourite Don't Starve LP, has done an ONI video too.  By the way--am I the only one who thinks of the Japanese mythical creature instead of it being initials, every time they see that?  ("LP" also looks like it might be referring to a vinyl record...)

...Notorious