[Game Update] - 599141

[Faintly Macabre]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean as much as people like to pretend it doesn't their existence does infact effect the experience of other players unless your playing solo.

A very telling detail of the argument being had here is that most of the people arguing against the exploit are not, in fact, saying that the exploits' existence is affecting them or others, and the ones that are are speaking almost entirely in hypotheticals. I counted one person in the entire topic with an anecdote saying that they had a negative experience with it. And I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of these people actually are playing alone, and most of the rest playing only with friends or other small, vetted groups.

Of the 10.7k-ish servers currently announcing, and the 7.3k-ish of those running the current version of the game, ~2/3 are password-protected. Of those that aren't, ~1.3k have any players in them at all. And while I can't (as best I can tell) use any filters or sorting to determine how many days the average server out of these has been up, scanning through about a hundred or so revealed worlds that mostly were running for less than 50 days, and a lot not even making it through Autumn. Who's joining fully open servers that don't even last an entire year and exploiting AFW against everyone's will?

Where are all these people being adversely affected by this exploit hiding? Why aren't virtually any of them here? Go search the forum for mentions of lureplant, lure plant, meatbulb, etc. before this week, going back a year. A scan doesn't see anybody talking about it actually affecting them, just tangentially griping in random topics about how much they hate that it's a thing people can do.

Y'all wanna act like the people who don't want to see this go don't have a better reason than that they're lazy and want free loot, and you can't even bring back anything as substantial as that for why it should go. Just value judgments and disingenuous arguments. "I want it" doesn't seem any less legitimate a reason than what all these arguments are boiling down or stripping away in to: "I don't want you to have it."

Edited March 21, 2024 by Faintly Macabre

[Pet Rock]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

A very telling detail of the argument being had here is that most of the people arguing against the exploit are not, in fact, saying that the exploits' existence is affecting them or others, and the ones that are are speaking almost entirely in hypotheticals.

How exactly would it be affecting you if they replaced the exploit with something that would actually makes sense in the world of don't starve? Personally I find it very immersion-breaking that a plant can stop an ancient shadow creature.

A good sandbox gives players the tools, and allows them to combine them in interesting and creative ways. A magical plant is not the kind of thing that should be able to completely immobilize the final boss of the game. This exploit is barely going to be found by the average player unless they look at a tutorial, and blindly following a tutorial is not rewarding, nor creative.

From a game design perspective, keeping the exploit in the game only harms it. I'm all for an an alternative that actually follows the logic of dst.

[KIBeGostoso1207]

Hey I'm new here and I first wanted to say a big   to the devs for finally adding a trash can to the game. Thanks Klei! Those Halloween sweets and toys were already taking up too much space in the sea! and I would also like to ask if you have plans to change the craft of the extensive chest and why it is such an expensive and late game item?

Edited March 21, 2024 by KIBeGostoso1207

[Faintly Macabre]

41 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

Personally I find it very immersion-breaking that a plant can stop an ancient shadow creature.

This is not what immersion is or how it works. There's all kinds of completely ridiculous things that can be done in the game that betray the mechanical nature of the game every bit as well as blocking AFW from reaching the gate, things that you are actually likely to discover yourself. As you note here:

41 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

This exploit is barely going to be found by the average player unless they look at a tutorial

What you see in a Youtube video or on Twitch and the effect it has on you has nothing to do with immersion. If this was immersion and it was this fragile, we'd be hard-pressed to enjoy much of anything, because as speedrunners love to prove, games are full to the brim with ways to bend or break the rules. And abusing overly simplified behavior is like, one of the sandbox genre's finest traditions; you're probably doing it yourself and just don't see it for what it is. or have decided it's fine because it doesn't offend an arbitrary boundary you've created. What's being offended here is not your immersion, it's just your sense of the way things should be.

41 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

How exactly would it be affecting you if they replaced the exploit with something that would actually makes sense in the world of don't starve?

This isn't about me. As I noted a couple times in the topic, I'd actually like to see the fight adjusted into something more reasonable for more players (especially ones playing with controllers, for which this fight is kind of awful and is why I generally cheese it when on my own). If it were though, the self-evident answer to this question would be: uh, it would keep me from doing the thing that I wanted to do?

Edited March 21, 2024 by Faintly Macabre

[Faintly Macabre]

It's pretty messy, yeah. It worked well enough in the early days, but as the game has become more complex, the original implementation has really shown its limits. I've done bug reporting and troubleshooting for controller play for the games and even a couple mods over the years. I understand that it's to be expected that there's some things it just can't be expected to do as well as a mouse and a keyboard, but it could definitely be improved.

[Mike23Ua]

55 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

They're probably buried by now, but for example, I have made posts on how the use of spells like Willow's could be improved in general, with controllers definitely benefitting (and just improving her potential here and there in a general sense); I feel like even a keyboard & mouse user might find the system a bit non-intuitive in its current state.

Don't even get me started on the process of collecting embers on a controller. 

Willows spells work well enough on a controller that anytime I interact with the ocean or boating content in general I Cry wishing they worked like casting Willows Fireball Spell.

This one simple change would allow me to place a boat exactly where I want to place the boat in the water instead of having to fight with walking back and forth at the edge of the land till the boat lights up green long enough to place the thing.

Hell a small change like that, might actually get me to try to fight Crab King the way Klei intended players to.

or the TL:DR- change the “Use” function of a Boat Kit to give players the same adjustable range and directional placement as you have with Willows Fireball spell.

[kroban]

6 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Having to wait 20 days (I think that's the counter) to defeat the one in the caves to access the one on the surface is very slow. It could be reduced to 10 days.

For most bosses you can change the spawn rate from 20 to 10 or even 5 days. Im not sure because this is on beta, but they will probably add the same for Werepig. Idk how it would work for the Werepig if he has 2 spawns tho

Edited March 21, 2024 by kroban

[arubaro]

Is funny to see people who defended non challenging mechanics that bring destruction now defending an hypothetical nerf to FW

But hey, people who dont want to rebuild decorative stuff are the ones wanting a easy experience 

[cropo]

Does DST still have the same attack for controllers that Singleplayer had? There was no ''CTRL+F" differentiation, if you pressed the attack button, regardless of whether or not something was there you would perform an attack, and that attack was ally-agnostic.

Might explain why it would be happening on a controller, I haven't tested it with a keyboard though so it might be happening on Keyboard as well.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Reecitz said:

Oh, one more thing to mention:

They updated Shadow Fire targeting so that they follow the same rules as the auto-attack feature; I guess this is supposed to make it so they don't attack things you don't want to like butterflies and walls, while trying to attack mobs you're specifically aiming for, or something. Well, I might be doing something wrong, or there's something I don't understand, but whenever I use it, they still go for mobs I don't want, and some don't even hit the mob I want at all, even if it's hostile towards me. 

I don't know how it is for mouse & keyboard, but I can only guess that the spell is behaving this way because the targeting system on controller is... eh, not so accurate in comparison. 

On mouse and keyboard the spell is working properly.  If I am actively fighting a boss, and its the closest mob to me by a bit, then all 5 bolts reliably hit the boss.  If I'm being chased by hounds / shadow monkeys / etc and cast they usually split onto 2-3 targets that are similar distance from me, in the direction they fired.

[Lovens]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:02 AM, V2C said:

Changes

• The Nightmare/Scrappy Werepig will no longer spawn in both the Forest and Cave at the same time. Some beta worlds may still have both active until they are defeated.

Update Note

• The spawning mechanic of the Nightmare/Scrappy Werepig has been modified to what we had originally planned and now that players have experienced the fight it has been changed to reflect that.

@V2C I'm sorry but how exactly is it supposed to work? I just tried to experience it for the first time and opened a copy of my current world in the beta branch. The junkyard somewhat successfully retrofitted (athough not in the Mandrake Evergreen Forest but in Triple McTusk biome instead) and only spawned a big junk pile surrounded by scrap fences but no small junk piles. Rummaging through the big junk pile does nothing. Ok, maybe I need to defeat Nightmare Werepig first? I went down to the caves and killed him, back to the surface - nothing again, rummaging through the junk piles still does not summon Scrappy Werepig. Ok, maybe I need to wait? c_skip(20), still nothing, can't make Scrappy Werepig to come out of the junk piles. What am I doing wrong? How do I even summon him?

[Cruvimaster]

8 minutes ago, Lovens said:

@V2C I'm sorry but how exactly is it supposed to work? I just tried to experience it for the first time and opened a copy of my current world in the beta branch. The junkyard somewhat successfully retrofitted (athough not in the Mandrake Evergreen Forest but in Triple McTusk biome instead) and only spawned a big junk pile surrounded by scrap fences but no small junk piles. Rummaging through the big junk pile does nothing. Ok, maybe I need to defeat Nightmare Werepig first? I went down to the caves and killed him, back to the surface - nothing again, rummaging through the junk piles still does not summon Scrappy Werepig. Ok, maybe I need to wait? c_skip(20), still nothing, can't make Scrappy Werepig to come out of the junk piles. What am I doing wrong? How do I even summon him?

First you will have to defeat the cave version and then wait 20 days for it to emerge on the surface.

If I'm not mistaken, to face the same version of the boss (cave x cave / surface x surface) you will have to wait at least 40 days (defeating one of his versions every 20).

Infortunately, it's been like this until now.

 

[Lovens]

16 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

First you will have to defeat the cave version and then wait 20 days for it to emerge on the surface.

If I'm not mistaken, to face the same version of the boss (cave x cave / surface x surface) you will have to wait at least 40 days (defeating one of his versions every 20).

Infortunately, it's been like this until now.

 

Do I actually need to play through those 20 days for it to spawn? Looks like skipping days though console didn't seem to work

[Cruvimaster]

16 minutes ago, Lovens said:

Do I actually need to play through those 20 days for it to spawn? Looks like skipping days though console didn't seem to work

The cave version has to be faced first (I remember the developers put this condition in place). After beating Nightmare Werepig you will have to wait 20 long days for Scrappy Werepig to appear. And then you will have to wait another 20 long long long days to have a new encounter with Nightmare Werepig.

I even asked @V2C to reduce this deadline to just 10 days, as we are talking about two versions of the same boss with different loot.

It's worth remembering that now it's no longer allowed to have two versions of the boss at the same time (except for worlds that were already in beta and had both). So you'll have to go down and defeat the one in the caves anyway.

Edited March 21, 2024 by Cruvimaster

[Lovens]

11 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The cave version has to be faced first (I remember the developers put this condition in place). After beating Nightmare Werepig you will have to wait 20 long days for Scrappy Werepig to appear. And then you will have to wait another 20 long long long days to have a new encounter with Nightmare Werepig.

I even asked @V2C to reduce this deadline to just 10 days, as we are talking about two versions of the same boss with different loot.

It's worth remembering that now it's no longer allowed to have two versions of the boss at the same time (except for worlds that were already in beta and had both). So you'll have to go down and defeat the one in the caves anyway.

Yes but I already defeated Nightmare Werepig, and even after 20 days the Scrappy version hasn't spawned, hence my confusion. Read my first comment again if you missed that.

[Cruvimaster]

7 minutes ago, Lovens said:

Yes but I already defeated Nightmare Werepig, and even after 20 days the Scrappy version hasn't spawned, hence my confusion. Read my first comment again if you missed that.

I understand now. Well, for me, I have 5 days to go before I give the 20. I'll see if it shows up here and let you know.

[Cruvimaster]

47 minutes ago, Lovens said:

Yes but I already defeated Nightmare Werepig, and even after 20 days the Scrappy version hasn't spawned, hence my confusion. Read my first comment again if you missed that.

For me everything is normal. After 20 days he appeared.

[00petar00]

I don't think that werepig should have a respawn timer If he is spawning as 2 separate bosses. Why not spawn him on the surface as soon as he is beaten in the caves? He doesn't die anyway and it would make it much less annoying to farm one version even if it will still be a problem for someone who only wants to farm dreadstone or scrap.

[Cruvimaster]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't think that werepig should have a respawn timer If he is spawning as 2 separate bosses. Why not spawn him on the surface as soon as he is beaten in the caves? He doesn't die anyway and it would make it much less annoying to farm one version even if it will still be a problem for someone who only wants to farm dreadstone or scrap.

The problem for me is the excessive time of 20 days. Imagine that in a new world I beat the cave pig on the 19th after clearing the ruins. Well, only on the 39th will I be able to defeat the other (surface). The benefit of the helmet that I could use for navigation is greatly undermined.

It also hurts to get dreadstones, as it would take 40 days (at least) to review Nightmare Werepig.

[Mysterious box]

11 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

A very telling detail of the argument being had here is that most of the people arguing against the exploit are not, in fact, saying that the exploits' existence is affecting them or others, and the ones that are are speaking almost entirely in hypotheticals. I counted one person in the entire topic with an anecdote saying that they had a negative experience with it. And I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of these people actually are playing alone, and most of the rest playing only with friends or other small, vetted groups.

Of the 10.7k-ish servers currently announcing, and the 7.3k-ish of those running the current version of the game, ~2/3 are password-protected. Of those that aren't, ~1.3k have any players in them at all. And while I can't (as best I can tell) use any filters or sorting to determine how many days the average server out of these has been up, scanning through about a hundred or so revealed worlds that mostly were running for less than 50 days, and a lot not even making it through Autumn. Who's joining fully open servers that don't even last an entire year and exploiting AFW against everyone's will?

Where are all these people being adversely affected by this exploit hiding? Why aren't virtually any of them here? Go search the forum for mentions of lureplant, lure plant, meatbulb, etc. before this week, going back a year. A scan doesn't see anybody talking about it actually affecting them, just tangentially griping in random topics about how much they hate that it's a thing people can do.

You ever notice how often on these forums this arguement is made it comes up litterally every month "you don't have a opinion on the matter because it doesn't effect you" and " I know exactly how you play the game and the experiences you've had playing therefore your opinion is invalid" they're more focused on shutting down discussion rather than giving a reasonable arguement. Trying to play the role of the logical one while basing the entire argument on information you don't have it's tiring really.

 

11 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Y'all wanna act like the people who don't want to see this go don't have a better reason than that they're lazy and want free loot, and you can't even bring back anything as substantial as that for why it should go. Just value judgments and disingenuous arguments. "I want it" doesn't seem any less legitimate a reason than what all these arguments are boiling down or stripping away in to: "I don't want you to have it."

Calling people disingenuous and then saying the only reason people want this changed is because they don't want other people to have it is peak irony but it's not unexpected on these forums it's always easier to make a strawman and any chance you guys get you take it and run with it.

11 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Y'all wanna act like the people who don't want to see this go don't have a better reason than that they're lazy and want free loot,

That being said minus the lazy part I haven't seen a better reason given because if being able to approach boss fights from a different perspective is the goal then I don't see why you guys would be so against boss reworks as ancient guardian's rework definitely made it possible to handle it multiple ways. Not to mention people have admitted getting rewards easier was the reason for it while others mention it's because those bosses are a pain to fight.

So I ask again what's so bad about reworking the fights to be more manageable since people seem to have enough trouble with them that the ideal method of fighting them is breaking their a.i. and mechanics?

Edited March 21, 2024 by Mysterious box

[grm9]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

ancient guardian's rework definitely made it possible to handle it multiple ways

those ways are making it ram into obstacles and?..

[cropo]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

That being said minus the lazy part I haven't seen a better reason given because if being able to approach boss fights from a different perspective is the goal then I don't see why you guys would be so against boss reworks as ancient guardian's rework definitely made it possible to handle it multiple ways. Not to mention people have admitted getting rewards easier was the reason for it while others mention it's because those bosses are a pain to fight.

This is a pretty mixed bag for most people, I would be happy with boss reworks and have argued for them in the past myself. But even if the boss was reworked that doesn't really change the argument of wanting to keep options for players. And Ancient Guardian's boss rework didn't really add any options to it, it is a very straightforward fight, as well as most new bosses released in this time frame(Which I actually like.). 

But even if the bosses were reworked, I would still want this option to stay. Like, a rework doesn't change the idea that a harmless and optional method of killing a boss exists and doesn't need to be patched out in a game like this.

 

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Calling people disingenuous and then saying the only reason people want this changed is because they don't want other people to have it is peak irony but it's not unexpected on these forums it's always easier to make a strawman and any chance you guys get you take it and run with it.

It's not a strawman, it's reading what the others are saying and coming to the conclusion that it's not genuine and that there is another motivation behind their arguments, that motivation being some kind of need to enforce or dictate that people shouldn't be allowed to do a certain thing in a video game.  When you actually analyze what that "thing" is, it reinforces this idea, because it's not people defending a glitch that lets players crash the game for other players, it's not a glitch that corrupts saves, it's an optional glitch that you have to go out of your way to intentionally exploit. To be so dogmatic to the point you would want to remove this, knowing how harmless and optional it is, in the face of players who enjoy it and want it to stay, can only lead to these kinds of assumptions. They may be wrong, but there's definitely good reason to suspect it beyond ''lol nice strawman bro''.

 

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

You ever notice how often on these forums this arguement is made it comes up litterally every month "you don't have a opinion on the matter because it doesn't effect you" and " I know exactly how you play the game and the experiences you've had playing therefore your opinion is invalid" they're more focused on shutting down discussion rather than giving a reasonable arguement. Trying to play the role of the logical one while basing the entire argument on information you don't have it's tiring really.

This is a huge pot meet kettle thing. Faintly literally listed further context on why he believes that, the amount of investigation done into coming to his conclusion, and you're being incredibly reductionist in the way you are dismissing him. There are some things that feel self-evident to most people and this is a situation I would agree with Faintly on. In fact, I would bet money that an absolutely insignificant number of people just happened to waltz in on a public server, find fuelweaver being cheesed, feel some kind of personal attack has been made on their game philosophy and then quit the game because the experience forever scarred them, or any kind of similar encounter with this supposedly fatal game bug.

[HeatAndRun]

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't think that werepig should have a respawn timer If he is spawning as 2 separate bosses. Why not spawn him on the surface as soon as he is beaten in the caves? He doesn't die anyway and it would make it much less annoying to farm one version even if it will still be a problem for someone who only wants to farm dreadstone or scrap.

I agree. If I want to hunt only one type of the werepig, I should wait more than 40 days, theoretically.

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

First you will have to defeat the cave version and then wait 20 days for it to emerge on the surface.

If I'm not mistaken, to face the same version of the boss (cave x cave / surface x surface) you will have to wait at least 40 days (defeating one of his versions every 20).

Infortunately, it's been like this until now.

 

Eek, really?  That sucks.  I find that repeat fights against NMWP are kinda a waste.  I already have the recipies and do not need any of his materials.  Dreadstone is used for only a few things really...  And that means 40 days to refight a boss?  That is sooo long.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

boss reworks as ancient guardian's rework definitely made it possible to handle it multiple ways.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

those ways are making it ram into obstacles and?..

Not use the obstacles? You do uh realize he's perfectly kitable without the obstacles right? Or does he need to infinitely run into a wall to be considered alternative?

1 hour ago, cropo said:

It's not a strawman, it's reading what the others are saying and coming to the conclusion that it's not genuine and that there is another motivation behind their arguments, that motivation being some kind of need to enforce or dictate that people shouldn't be allowed to do a certain thing in a video game.  When you actually analyze what that "thing" is, it reinforces this idea, because it's not people defending a glitch that lets players crash the game for other players, it's not a glitch that corrupts saves, it's an optional glitch that you have to go out of your way to intentionally exploit. To be so dogmatic to the point you would want to remove this, knowing how harmless and optional it is, in the face of players who enjoy it and want it to stay, can only lead to these kinds of assumptions. They may be wrong, but there's definitely good reason to suspect it beyond ''lol nice strawman bro''.

So in other words in your mind there's no reason someone would want this removed aside from spiting other people and you've determined this is a absolute fact? I get that there are people who want the exploits fixed for bad reasons but there are equally people who want them to stay for bad reasons like being lazy but what's happening is any arguments against keeping exploits being boiled down to the worst crowds so yes that is a strawman. Also I'm not sure if you've realized this but dst is a multiplayer game meaning actions you take in a public server does infact effect people on those servers your simply looking at it from your perspective and assuming anything counter is unimportant you guys are not game devs nor do you represent the entirety of the community people are allowed to disagree without having some big agenda or wanting to cause suffering.