[Game Update] - 599141

[grm9]

1 minute ago, kroban said:

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game

you still continued playing and learned about how to kill the boss without cheese after that so it probably wasn't an issue, i'd be surprised if someone quit DST after seeing FW cheese

[NoodlemanNed]

can you efficiency nuts just let people play how they like? Not everyone is a robot who enjoys fighting a boss the same way dozens of times, people need variety. You might hate how people choose to fight a boss but at least what they do has no effect on you. Nobody is going to ever use lureplant cheese by accident, its something you only see if players want to use it.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, TalhaStarve said:

İm soooo confused why yaal crying about a cheese getting removed

learn how to talk to people so they answer instead of thinking that you're a troll or not worth their time

6 minutes ago, TalhaStarve said:

İf you are bad just practice what is the matter with this things?

you could be good and still use cheese because cheeseless fights require more time and preparation, even minimal gear FW requires getting a lot of armor, sanity food and insanity food when playing solo as characters without damage multipliers 

6 minutes ago, TalhaStarve said:

You are litterly waiting afk for a end game boss to die hıw can this satisfie you? 

everything that happens after it's death remains the same regardless of how you killed it, including it's loot and being able to activate shadow rifts after that

Edited March 20 by grm9

[JazzyGames]

Since it’s confirmed that scaled chest expansions are being added in this beta, it is my greatest hope that we will be able to replace our already-built tall chests with scaled chests without having to kill CC again. Please add enlightened crown shard to the deconstruction loot of tall chests.

[cropo]

11 minutes ago, kroban said:

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game.

Cheesing bosses has been a thing since Singleplayer. If you came from Singleplayer, I don't know how you suddenly saw another boss get cheesed and go ''Whoa man, this doesn't look good for the game, I'm going to have to withhold my 20$ investment in Klei stocks because other people can kill the boss this way".

 

Like this hypothetical either doesn't happen(and ya'all are lying) or happens on such an inconsequential scale that taking away these options dampens the game at a higher magnitude and shouldn't be changed anyway.

[Faintly Macabre]

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

Cheesing bosses has been a thing since Singleplayer. If you came from Singleplayer, I don't know how you suddenly saw another boss get cheesed and go ''Whoa man, this doesn't look good for the game, I'm going to have to withhold my 20$ investment in Klei stocks because other people can kill the boss this way".

 

Like this hypothetical either doesn't happen(and ya'all are lying) or happens on such an inconsequential scale that taking away these options dampens the game at a higher magnitude and shouldn't be changed anyway.

Right? Speedrunners exploit 30 hours games down into 15 minutes, but I can't imagine watching a speedrun of a game I'm only somewhat familiar with and deciding "wow this game must suck".

[kroban]

23 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said:

can you efficiency nuts just let people play how they like? Not everyone is a robot who enjoys fighting a boss the same way dozens of times, people need variety.

Its kind of ironic that you are defending Lureplants cheese by saying this. Its the most efficient method of cheesing the boss without wasting any resources. Its also the most monotonous method ever, theres never going to be variety with this cheese lmao. 

The people that want the lureplant cheese to stay are the "efficient nuts". And im saying this as a person that uses this cheese and understands why people do it. The fight itself sucks and requires a lot of preparation. That doesnt take away the fact that its still a dull cheese where you are wasting 0 resources for literally the best reward in the entire game.

Like I said in other comment, what Klei SHOULD be doing is reworking the entire fight, kind of like what they did with Ancient guardian. THEN remove the cheese.

Edited March 20 by kroban

[Captain_Rage]

29 minutes ago, cropo said:

No it doesn't. No one in Skyrim complained about the enchanting glitch, in fact most casual players I talk to mention it like it was the most big-brained exploit they could ever do. Bethesda intentionally kept the goofy giant's club smashing you into orbit, and specifically made sure to keep the glitch of putting pots on an NPC's head to blind them from you stealing.

If you are comparing Klei to Bethesda I am happy that Klei aspires to make good games without major flaws and with a solid polish. I would not touch the work of the other developer with a stick. Guess we stand divided on this one.

[Faintly Macabre]

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

Its kind of ironic that you are defending Lureplants cheese by saying this. Its the most efficient method of cheesing the boss without wasting any resources.

When you're right, you're r-

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

The people that want the lureplant cheese to stay are the "efficient nuts"

One bad take deserves another, I guess.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

Its the most efficient method of cheesing the boss without wasting any resources

no, you need to play as wormwood which isn't efficient or wait until spring which is inefficient if you want to get FW's loot as soon as possible which is a good idea because then sanity is solved and you get shadow rifts stuff and you get best equipment available as maxwell for fighting

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

The people that want the lureplant cheese to stay are the "efficient nuts"

if you want to kill FW early you should ideally do that in autumn during which there are no lureplants and you can't get spider eggs or use shadow prison because assembling 1 piece during day 1 is unreasonable as anyone except wolfgang and maybe walter

Edited March 20 by grm9

[cropo]

1 minute ago, Captain_Rage said:

If you are comparing Klei to Bethesda I am happy that Klei aspires to make good games without major flaws and with a solid polish. I would not touch the work of the other developer with a stick. Guess we stand divided on this one.

I'm not comparing Bethesdas unintended bugs in the mix, those are problems and they suck. There are specific ones though that Bethesda kept, and the community WANTED them to keep, because that's a far better thing for a developer to do than just hammer down anything regardless of how fun and optional it is.

[Cruvimaster]

22 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Since it’s confirmed that scaled chest expansions are being added in this beta, it is my greatest hope that we will be able to replace our already-built tall chests with scaled chests without having to kill CC again. Please add enlightened crown shard to the deconstruction loot of tall chests.

Well, using the deconstruction staff only returns the wood. I don't know if it is their intention to return the item, but I hope so.

[kroban]

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, you need to play as wormwood which isn't efficient or wait until spring which is too late

if you want to kill FW early you should ideally do that in autumn during which there are no lureplants and you can't get spider eggs or use shadow prison because assembling 1 piece during day 1 is unreasonable as anyone except wolfgang and maybe walter

Im saying efficient as in wasting as little resources as possible, not as in rushing FW at day 21. 2 lureplants and 1 hondius that will stay permanently there is by definition the most efficient way to kill FW. Right now the legit method of farming the insane amount of mats the fight requires is by far the least efficient, 99% of the players are just cheesing him afk and moving on to ruins.

Edited March 20 by kroban

[00petar00]

50 minutes ago, kroban said:

The fight itself is a huge pain, most players (myself included) end up "locked with the immortal FW" wastin resources because of his horrible hands and wovens CDs, and the legit fight also requires lots of farming and using multiple different items that can easily make the inventory a whole mess in the middle of the fight etc etc.

So yes, I can understand this cheese being a "necessary evil" for most players right now. But thats because the fight itself is horrible. That doesnt change the fact that the lureplant cheese IS a cheese. Its not "player creativity" when 99% of the players are now just skipping the entire fight because of how easy it is to setup the cheese - 2 lureplants and a hondius (or even Walter's slingshot lol).

What Klei SHOULD do is reworking the entire fight (putting longer CD's on his abilities, maybe adding another attack so FW uses less hands, adding something in the area that can be used as a legit advantage) and THEN remove the lureplant cheese. This is exactly what they did with Ancient Guardian. You can still cheese it, but who even does that now? the fight has a mechanic that you can use for advantage, its easily doable without having to spend an entire year just farming things for 1 fight, unlike FW's fight.

The fight is good but the annoying part is managing the inventory and not everyone can do it. The boss doesn't need to be reworked at all, there are much more important ones like Bee Queen and Dragonfly (minions) that are terrible for solo players without using a method to remove them from the fight.

35 minutes ago, kroban said:

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game.

Most players wouldn't find that as bad as you make it out to be, it just shows an option for players that don't want to fight the boss normally and we aren't competing here for anything.

The only reason you may not  have noticed such things in single player is because you played alone and didn't bother watching youtube videos, there are quite a few exploits/cheeses there that people have used for a decade.

 

[Faintly Macabre]

Anybody here remember cheat codes? Boy would that break some of these brains.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, kroban said:

Im saying efficient as in wasting as little resources as possible, not as in rushing FW at day 21

you can do it during 1st autumn too, it makes sense that you can make killing him free if you're megabasing and you can kill him by spending only a few brightshade repair kits since you can just swap to void armor while you aren't taking damage and use bone helm instead of nightmare amulet and place thuribles to prevent bone cages which cost pretty much nothing considering FW drops 2-4 nf back which would also be much faster than afking 

[Dingle]

Reading all this is making me think that the Official Klei Animation for this update should be Wilson doing the lureplant exploit on Fuelweaver. The whole process, beautifully animated. Why not? It's part of the official lore now.

34 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Right? Speedrunners exploit 30 hours games down into 15 minutes, but I can't imagine watching a speedrun of a game I'm only somewhat familiar with and deciding "wow this game must suck".

I've seen some speedruns that make their game look really bad/boring. Worse, some speedruns are really boring to watch because they skip all the fights that make the game interesting. Charity speedrun organizations tend to ban "warp to credits" style speedruns, for example, as no one's excited to watch them.

[Cruvimaster]

Guys, there is an official position and it is very clear about the use of lureplants. They are exploits and the developers do not approve. They just tolerate it while they can't take the time to remove it. Klei always knew, as there are dozens of videos showing this. It was never a priority for them, except for this last update. And there is no mention of a future rework of the giants, which could take several years to happen and many here won't even be playing DST anymore. That's it for the moment.

[Copyafriend]

23 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Anybody here remember cheat codes? Boy would that break some of these brains.

We have cheat codes right now, its called console commands. If you want to spawn in the boss loot feel free, but thats a totally separate discussion than whether exploits should be patched. And its a rather condescending rude point too.

i personally am for them being patched, but mostly because i am against cheeses for major bosses in games. If he’s supposed to be a progression lock, bypassing the lock does no favors for newbies. I also think its a bad look, but i dont think its “actively hurting the game” or something like that. It just looks silly and makes klei look a little incompetent for not patching such an obvious glitch. Not that they are of course but appearances n all that.

 

but honestly i think they’ve made their stance on the exploit fairly obvious. If they say it stays it stays, if they say it goes it goes, i’m not going to whine about it

Edited March 20 by Copyafriend

[Faintly Macabre]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I've seen some speedruns that make their game look really bad/boring. Worse, some speedruns are really boring to watch because they skip all the fights that make the game interesting. Charity speedrun organizations tend to ban "warp to credits" style speedruns, for example, as no one's excited to watch them.

I meant deciding that the game is bad just because they can be speedrun that way. Being able to exploit a game does not automatically make it bad. And I actually don't much enjoy a lot of speedruns for the very reason you're mentioning.

[JazzyGames]

6 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

They are exploits and the developers do not approve. They just tolerate it while they can't take the time to remove it.

For Klei it's more than just wanting to patch exploits, I think. It's about giving players more incentives to not cheese the fight by revisiting some of the issues with these older fights and fixing the underlying reasons why so many players choose to cheese the boss to begin with. I remember before Ancient Guardian was reworked the pillar cheese (and void cheese with Wanda) was extremely common practice for the fight. Now since the rework the fight is just better, more fun, and far less tedious. I am sure that a similar treatment given to FW would effectively reduce the incentive to resort to lureplants and houndius. Until they have time to do this, though, they aren't going to make patching all of these methods the biggest priority. Makes sense to me.

[Faintly Macabre]

5 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

We have cheat codes right now, its called console commands. If you want to spawn in the boss loot feel free, but thats a totally separate discussion than whether exploits should be patched. And its a rather condescending rude point too.

It's absolutely not a "totally separate discussion"; the end result is pretty much the same. And watching people cackle with glee as other people lose things they enjoy, I don't feel particularly bad for not being super nice about it.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, JazzyGames said:

I am sure that a similar treatment given to FW would effectively reduce the incentive to resort to lureplants and houndius

i hope they won't turn FW into another "do the boss' gimmick and hold F on it until it wakes up" fight that only requires you to have a weapon and do something extremely intuitive and easy, AG is also boring and got stale fast because there's practically no risk because shadow tentacles are very easy to see and the boss can't deal damage to you if you hide behind a pillar, if FW would get turned into that i'd definitely do cheese just so i spend less time doing boring stuff 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Making a game worse for fun? I won't ever see this as a good thing. We finally got a replacement for lureplant item deletion and in the same update its not able to delete all items.

A big selling point for DST is sandbox.

Sandbox game definition: A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity. to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective.

If we have only one way to kill a boss and everything else is "fixed" that part of the game isn't sandbox anymore.

Hey Buddy, can I introduce you to ark survival evolved? And then Re-Introduce you to that same game (again) with Ark survival Ascended?

To keep this polite and short: They’re two different versions of the same game, and no I don’t just mean in prettier graphics, I mean that a lot of the things you COULD do in ASE, You Can NOT DO in ASA- Because the developers saw what players were doing (such as luring a certain boss into deep water so it drowns itself instantly) and in the updated version of that game- Huh what do you know? This boss can’t be drowned anymore.

Same game… but Old outdated tactics from Yester-Year removed so a new generation of players have to come up with a different tactic besides the known method of drowning it.

Whats my point? ASE/ASA is a sandbox survival game that can & does get updates to the way players play the game.

You need a Minecraft example? Prior to that swooping bat thing & the “Drowned” players could avoid all the games dangers by building a 1 block tower up into the sky to just wait out the nights, or hang out in a boat in the middle of the water.

The Bat, now swoops downward at the player knocking them off their 1 block tower foundation, and the drowned spawn in the water to challenge you.

These are all Sandbox Survival games, and they ALL had changes made to them based on how players were playing the game in a way the developers weren’t happy with & were disheartened by.

As a writer myself, that’s like telling me this part of my story sucks and would be better if I changed it. Opinions are fine to have- but in the end.. it’s my story to tell, I’m gonna tell it the way I want it told.

Same Rules apply to video games, you’ll play the way the developers want you to and you’re gonna like it. (Or stop playing) 

[Cruvimaster]

9 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

For Klei it's more than just wanting to patch exploits, I think. It's about giving players more incentives to not cheese the fight by revisiting some of the issues with these older fights and fixing the underlying reasons why so many players choose to cheese the boss to begin with. I remember before Ancient Guardian was reworked the pillar cheese (and void cheese with Wanda) was extremely common practice for the fight. Now since the rework the fight is just better, more fun, and far less tedious. I am sure that a similar treatment given to FW would effectively reduce the incentive to resort to lureplants and houndius. Until they have time to do this, though, they aren't going to make patching all of these methods the biggest priority. Makes sense to me.

The only thing I regret is that this discussion ended with more important things that will be definitively implemented soon.

For example, could Scaled Chests increase their capacity to 18 or 15 slots?

The W.O.B.O.T. Should I increase the amount of items collected to be more functional?

But all that was lost because of lureplant.