[Game Update] - 599141

[00petar00]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As a writer myself, that’s like telling me this part of my story sucks and would be better if I changed it. Opinions are fine to have- but in the end.. it’s my story to tell, I’m gonna tell it the way I want it told.

Same Rules apply to video games, you’ll play the way the developers want you to and you’re gonna like it. (Or stop playing) 

How can you believe that and spend this much time on the forums? Makes no sense to me.

If I didn't think that my feedback would be of any use, I wouldn't talk about any game features and betas at all and would only be on the forums for casual discussions.

Why do you have to compare games so often? I can understand and have done it in the past from time to time but for you its literally every second post.

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

If you think bugs and console commands are the same then you have lost nothing, simply use c_godmode() and hold f to win. If that doesn’t feel satisfying, then set up the things you used to use, spawn the boss and kill it with console commands. Its the same effect.

How do so many people bring this up? using console and exploits or cheesing bosses is completely different and you can't really use this as an argument.

If that is an acceptable argument I can say that you can use settings to make the game more difficult if you find it too easy currently.

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

This is either a lie or vastly misunderstanding the situation. Many people see exploits as perfectly valid ways to play. In other words they see it as not cheating. Its cheating. But who cares if someone wants to use console commands to beat the boss? My problem is that the reason many people defend it is because they see it as a valid and unique way of killing the boss, as if its not the boss walking at an indestructible wall for 30 minutes while being chipped away until it dies. Real dynamic gameplay there.

It is a completely valid way to play and it can be considered cheating but I don't think it is. I don't really want to defend this point so I won't be going deeper into this.

I don't care if someone wants to use console commands but I won't do it.

It is a fun and unique way to kill a boss and the reason I like it is because I kill FW 3 times a year to get more houndius shootius, resources required to fight a boss aren't fun to gather and maybe you don't want to keep killing a boss in your "intended" way for the 100th time.

You bring up that you don't care If someone uses console commands to beat a boss but it is an issue when there is an exploit/cheese method?

EDIT: To add this isn't just about FW but moon rock farming and Toadstool too.

Edited March 20 by 00petar00

[Frosty_Mentos]

Aight. My belief that whatever Klei intends is usually what should be a thing for survival-sandbox experience. Creative side can always be enabled via console and mod settings if you wanna just get those items and don't care about to put effort/tryhard the game to make things you wanna make.

There's no wrong way to play this game. Exploits and cheeses are viable while they exist, if Klei removes them they do state the reasons as to why and I appreciate that greatly, but it also means there should or will be a different new solution to dealing with those menaces and problems by either - via boss/item reworks or adding a new intended way to deal with it those threats.

They changed moon storm costs and they really made a simple thing like crowns finally more farmable to make comfortable lights in the world to be set up more often with less dumb amount of time waste that doesn't require as much effort.

If Klei changes something we gotta adapt to it and put our either concerns or criticism as to why that was bad and what solution should be different as it'll help them at creating the content to supplement to what we have lost in more intuitive ways.

Also this update is not yet the end of the world, so don't get gaslit by the lovers of this change cause game devs as said are working on a solution rn. Wait just a bit and we'll get back in business as usual or better/interesting way eventually.

I don't like fighting Fuelweaver solo for 200 times and I just wanna chill seeing him melt from houndiuses or other methods cause he simply is useless drop wise for me and only drop he gives that has value are the ruins reset overall.

[Copyafriend]

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You bring up that you don't care If someone uses console commands to beat a boss but it is an issue when there is an exploit/cheese method?

Absolutely there isnt an issue at all. I seem to have been rather unclear. I do not care if it exists and is being abused. But functionally speaking cheesing a boss is no different than just using a console command to reset the ruins. You’re free to do so. 
 

but call a fish a fish, its cheating. You’re cheating because you’re tired of beating it the “right” way. Its not engaging to beat the boss that way, thats just a lie. Its convenient because you need to kill him many times and it gets old. A very reasonable reason to not want it patched. A very reasonable reason to cheese it.

 

But if klei wants to patch a bug, accept the L. No one has some right to a bug or exploit or cheese just because its convenient or easy or even enjoyable.

 

it doesn’t bother me one way or another if its kept or taken away, what bothers me is that people defend it as if its an engaging gameplay feature when its a bug that results in a boss acting uncharacteristically stupid and walking mindlessly into a wall while it dies. 
 

its a bug, bugs should be removed. If they want to enable a similar behavior they should remove the bug and institute a purposeful version that doesn’t look like the only sentient enemy we know of is mindless walking into a wall while he dies despite his full capabilities of just destroying the lure plants.

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

Funnily enough it's impossible to write any code without bugs, you have to admit that your code is bugged, and honestly it's nothing to be ashamed about, recognising the issue is the first step of fixing it.

Also this is not true. Lots of code has “no bugs” but that code is typically very short and simple. This behavior from bosses isn’t actually a bug either, thats just a generalization. Its a design oversight, not a bug.
 

Everything is working exactly how its supposed to work, its just resulting in unintended behaviors. It’s just called a bug because most people either dont know the difference or don’t care, either way the end result is more or less the same.

[00petar00]

9 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

But if klei wants to patch a bug, accept the L. No one has some right to a bug or exploit or cheese just because its convenient or easy or even enjoyable.

So again, you bring up a good point it is more enjoyable to cheese a boss If you need to farm him. 

If a change makes the game less fun for you, wouldn't you want to speak about it?

Isn't this part of the forums for feedback regarding beta? I don't understand why you and Mike are telling me that I should just accept it and not voice my concerns regarding a change.

9 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

it doesn’t bother me one way or another if its kept or taken away, what bothers me is that people defend it as if its an engaging gameplay feature when its a bug that results in a boss acting uncharacteristically stupid and walking mindlessly into a wall while it dies. 

It is your choice if you want to use it or not, you don't ever have to see that on your world.

Removing options is almost never a good thing even when they are exploits, look at the post rift bosses and how linear they are, similar mechanics and you are very limited in how you can approach that fight. The only reason this change happened is because werepig could be blocked which should also stay in the game.

 

Edited March 20 by 00petar00

[Copyafriend]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If a change makes the game less fun for you, wouldn't you want to speak about it?

This is a good point.

i shouldnt just try to silence you on the matter.

however i still hold my belief that if its a “bug” it should just be fixed, and its not really something that should be allowed to stay, usefulness or not. I believe in patching all bugs, but if a useful or interesting mechanic develops, then come back and hard code it in instead of letting it persist as a bug.

 

HOWEVER: there is a very reasonable compromise here that i should have emphasized more instead of ranting about bugs.

 

simply allow for alternatives for resetting the ruins. Then there is no need to “farm” this boss. I could think of a few alternatives but the how is less important than the why.

 

I’m particularly against this particular boss being farmable because of its story relevance and overall menace (and apparent intelligence) It just feels wrong to me for this particular boss to be so easily cheesed. 

[R4yni]

16 hours ago, V2C said:

The Enlightened Crown UI now stays closed after joining a world or going to the caves.

This is so good!

 

16 hours ago, V2C said:

The Player will now enter a stationary state when opening a portable container in their inventory.  The container will stay open when using items from inside of it.  However, it will automatically close if the Player moves, performs other actions, or is interrupted

This make me sad and frustrating, not about the animation or to enter in a stationary state, but I agree with:
 

15 hours ago, Thalz said:

What about allowing us to craft using the Spectackler box with twiggs (or rot)? If possible would be nice allow us to keep crafting stuff using it because its an underrated item that could see more use. And personally I found it very useful during building and now the box closes when I try to craft something using the twiggs inside.

And about Polar Bearger Bin, look at this situation: my crown is down and I need a sanity food inside it, I can't get anything in darkness. No make sense for me, its a lunar end game item.

[The Starver]

13 hours ago, Dreadstone said:

Are the digestive enzymes of pigs extraordinarily special?

Yes

[Copyafriend]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As a writer myself, that’s like telling me this part of my story sucks and would be better if I changed it. Opinions are fine to have- but in the end.. it’s my story to tell, I’m gonna tell it the way I want it told.

Sometimes your story sucks and you should change parts of it though.

i mean no disrespect about your story ofc i dont know it. I was more saying that criticisms are valid and to say this is a little silly. Sometimes changes are better even if you particularly like that part.

[Keigo]

16 hours ago, V2C said:

Changes

• The Nightmare/Scrappy Werepig will no longer spawn in both the Forest and Cave at the same time. Some beta worlds may still have both active until they are defeated.

 

 Does anyone know how this will work?

[Szczuku]

7 hours ago, cropo said:

I also like the idea of Lureplants not affecting post-rift mobs, but staying consistent across pre-rift mobs. We've already accepted that ''Post rifts'' is a very different thing, so trying to argue for consistency with lureplanting seems to be specific. It's pretty messed up to want to take away a naturally found unintended mechanic with lureplants just to spite players who ''don't deserve to have beaten fuelweaver'' when player-consent has already been implied by them intentionally using it.

What are you even talking about? Scrappy Werepig is a pre-rift boss afaik. And even if it wasn't, what's the logic here, where do we draw the line on which giant, magical creature can trample plants and which one can't. Klei is literally treating the Lureplant cheese as an unintended mechanic that needs to be fixed for Scrappy Werepig but for Fuelweaver it is treated as a strategy. What? Why? Just because the fuelweaver version of the same bug is older and that somehow justifies its existance???

8 hours ago, Yuuko said:

A critical, vital, essential element of sandbox games - games that you don't want to end, games that you want to be re-playable infinitely - is player expression and variance.

6 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Like the previous Bee Queen boat patch this just removes options from players.

A big part of sandbox games are choices and we are not getting any from the new boss fights while the bosses before rift are getting "fixed".

Choices matter so much for replayability of a game.

4 hours ago, NoodlemanNed said:

can you efficiency nuts just let people play how they like? Not everyone is a robot who enjoys fighting a boss the same way dozens of times, people need variety. You might hate how people choose to fight a boss but at least what they do has no effect on you. Nobody is going to ever use lureplant cheese by accident, its something you only see if players want to use it.

Variety this, variety that. Y'all are acting like there are only two ways to kill a boss: legitimate and the no-brainer cheese. There's lots of variety in dst but it seems to me like you just don't want to put in the effort.

Let's use Bee Queen as an example. When Klei fixed the boat bug there were some forumites who were crying that their exploit got taken away.

This is the same thing that is happening right now with Fuelweaver.

You are all acting like you are now forced to fight him legitimately. But there's still planty of variety and even exploits. Klei took away the Bee Queen Boat exploit but you can still cheese her with Bunnymen. The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat.

Same thing with AF. You can still have a varied experience: farm up for a stack of gunpowder and nuke the boss when he enters the healing phase. Put down a shootius and have it assist you in a fight, not do it for you on a crippled boss. Wear the moonshroom funcap and use the spores to pop the woven shadows. Hell, even explot him: switch to Winona, farm rocks and build catapults in the atrium.

And besides...

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief; or that you start a brand new world with each character just so that you can kill AF with lureplant cheese instead of the normal way. Y'all are defending the lureplant cheese because it allows you to effortlessly take the difficult boss down.

5 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Scrappy werepig being stuck on lureplant would be a good thing

...dude you can't be serious.

And here's the ending note:

To anyone using the "It doesn't affect you, just don't use the exploit if you don't like it" argument; how about Klei adds godmode toggle to dst? When you spawn in a new world there's just going to be a toggle that gives you godmode() and freecrafting(). I mean, people won't be forced to use it, it's just there for those who might want a different experience. Surely this would be healthy for the game, the more variety the better

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Szczuku said:

how about Klei adds godmode toggle to dst? When you spawn in a new world there's just going to be a toggle that gives you godmode() and freecrafting()

since when is there a visible toggle or tip on the screen about using lureplants to block stuff?

3 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief; or that you start a brand new world with each character just so that you can kill AF with lureplant cheese instead of the normal way. Y'all are defending the lureplant cheese because it allows you to effortlessly take the difficult boss down

i can kill FW without weather pains but i still use cheese because i don't want to do the preparation, megabasers could also not want to do it normally every time

5 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

there were some forumites who were crying

learn to talk constructively

6 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

What are you even talking about? Scrappy Werepig is a pre-rift boss afaik. And even if it wasn't, what's the logic here, where do we draw the line on which giant, magical creature can trample plants and which one can't. Klei is literally treating the Lureplant cheese as an unintended mechanic that needs to be fixed for Scrappy Werepig but for Fuelweaver it is treated as a strategy. What? Why? Just because the fuelweaver version of the same bug is older and that somehow justifies its existance???

no, because there are already many ways to kill FW but only 1 way to kill CC, werepig, werepig 2, AG, EoT, frostjaw etc.

[Guille6785]

4 hours ago, kroban said:

the legit fight also requires lots of farming and using multiple different items that can easily make the inventory a whole mess in the middle of the fight etc etc.

this is hardly more items than what you need for any other fight

Edited March 20 by Guille6785

[grm9]

11 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat

boat cheese still required you to deal with the minions so it was hardly cheese and you still need to wait for spring to use lureplant for FW cheese and why do you want other people to be unable to do something because you think that it's too easy or cheap to do even though them doing that doesn't affect you since no one forces you or puts a button onto your screen that makes you cheese a boss?

Edited March 20 by grm9

[Szczuku]

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

there are already many ways to kill FW but only 1 way to kill CC, werepig, werepig 2, AG, EoT, frostjaw etc.

Like I said, you only consider braindead cheese as an alternative to fight with armor and weapons. Literally any difference you make to your equipment for a bossfight, outside for switching darkswords for a hambat and football helmets for the thulecite crown, is an alternative bossfight. Use darts, wear bodyarmor and the enlightment crown, put down a shootius. Mix and match these tree things and you get 6 different takes on a bossfight

There are ways to take these bosses down in a varied way. You can prepare 3 stacks of gunpowder for CC, drop them on the ground in different palces and explode each phase- by the time it switches to a new phase its gunpowder resistance would probably end.

FIght EoT with a bunch of Pigmen or bunnymen.

Bring Rock lobsters to the Daywalker fight

There is variety in the game's bossfights; you just want ways that are cheap, easy and require no effort from you. Own up to it

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, cropo said:

If this bug stays:

No one is affected, allegedly Klei looks like a fool in the eyes of players looking up DST videos. Like, the first video they're going to see is a lureplant farm video, and immediately go ''Wow this game sucks, it's so unpolished" and never delve into the game or look into it any further. But being real here, no one is affected.

and this wouldn't even really be solved by removing the interaction because all the old videos showing it are gonna stay up regardless lol

Edited March 20 by Guille6785

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

There is variety in the game's bossfights; you just want ways that are cheap, easy and require no effort from you

i don't, i want stuff like using abigail, bramble husk, shadow prison, scare song, weather pains, lazy explorer, lunar fire, shadow fire, moonshroom hat etc. for fighting stuff instead of ham bat only being the best way to kill all bosses that i've listed, cheese should remain as an option because why not, you might not want to fight the boss for some reason e.g. not wanting to do the preparation or not liking it or not wanting to fight it now or idk, how does that hurt others considering they can not use cheese or not allow it if they're hosting a competition?

[Dingle]

7 hours ago, Yuuko said:

All that said - the question was - why are exploits bad.

This keeps coming up as an argument so I'll put in my thoughts, though I don't expect it to change anyone's mind.

Unfixed exploits can cause a certain level of lack of faith in the developers. Are all exploits/bugs just left in intentionally, as a temporary band-aid for design the developers consider bad? Should we bother reporting bugs or exploits? If Klei leaves in an exploit as a temporary solution for something they don't like, will they just rely on these band-aids to not fix the underlying issues for years? How many years did it take for them to change Ancient Guardian, because people could beat it using the pillars to get it stuck and just wail on it? Does leaving in Void Walking mean that they see something really wrong with the atrium/tentapillars/caves, but don't want to have to change it?

It also makes the developer intent very arbitrary. Every exploit is intentional. Until they fix it, then the fix is the developer intent. Though if they revert that fix due to outcry, it's also the developer's intent.

Example: Bee queen and boats. Intentional until it wasn't. But having her not path onto the water was also intentional. Now having her fly over the water is the intent, as a fix for getting her stuck on boats, and this can be really irritating.

[cropo]

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

What are you even talking about? Scrappy Werepig is a pre-rift boss afaik

Then let it work on him pre-rift, and let him trample it post-rift, since he's both a pre-rift and post-rift boss?

 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

And even if it wasn't, what's the logic here, where do we draw the line on which giant, magical creature can trample plants

I dunno, where do we draw the line on gold literally being used as a better mining tool, a campfire being able to warm the enchanted ice of an ice colossus, a small flower that farts lunar mist being able to send us flying with a tiny needle but a giant omega bear of destruction merely knocks an item out of our hand? 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Variety this, variety that. Y'all are acting like there are only two ways to kill a boss: legitimate and the no-brainer cheese. There's lots of variety in dst but it seems to me like you just don't want to put in the effort.

For gods sake, this is annoying me.

 

Lets make this clear, for the record, for everyone to see so people stop wasting their time with this repeated accusation.

 

Do you, honestly, like I'm looking you in the proverbial eye here. Do you honestly, believe, with all your heart, that we have not legitimately killed Fuelweaver, that we can't do it? Does any of you saying this....for GODS SAKE, I can't even complete this sentence. 

 

I need an answer for this, in fact, I think answering this question should be a bare minimum requirement for people engaging in this discussion who support this change. Do you think we cannot kill Fuelweaver?

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Let's use Bee Queen as an example. When Klei fixed the boat bug there were some forumites who were crying that their exploit got taken away.

Yeah it was dumb, she is still easily cheesable, nothing was changed except an option to cheese her was removed for no good reason. 

 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

You are all acting like you are now forced to fight him legitimately. But there's still planty of variety and even exploits. Klei took away the Bee Queen Boat exploit but you can still cheese her with Bunnymen. The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat.

So is the argument now that exploits are okay, as long as they come with a bunch of grinding?

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Same thing with AF. You can still have a varied experience: farm up for a stack of gunpowder and nuke the boss when he enters the healing phase. Put down a shootius and have it assist you in a fight, not do it for you on a crippled boss. Wear the moonshroom funcap and use the spores to pop the woven shadows. Hell, even explot him: switch to Winona, farm rocks and build catapults in the atrium.

Does this take away the fact that an option was, nonetheless, removed, and that nothing has been gained on your part by its removal? Why bring all this up?

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief;

For me personally? No, it's what comes after the death of Fuelweaver that I'm after. There is no fun fighting Fuelweaver for the 34th time for me, but my motivations or desires are irrelevant to the argument that if I were to cheese fuelweaver with Lureplant, it would have been my decision to make, and would not negatively impact your experience in any way.

36 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

There are ways to take these bosses down in a varied way

And one of those options was taken away, for no good reason besides "Haha, suck it cheesers, now you gotta fight it a way I deem appropriate!". Truly a sad state of affairs, that's not a reason to remove things. 

 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

how about Klei adds godmode toggle to dst? When you spawn in a new world there's just going to be a toggle that gives you godmode() and freecrafting(). I mean, people won't be forced to use it, it's just there for those who might want a different experience. Surely this would be healthy for the game, the more variety the better

Uh, isn't there a toggle for god mode in the console? Like, you have the power to literally press a key and type in a word to turn it on? Or do you mean without the console, like setting the damage enemies do to you to zero? A lot of survival games have creative modes that are exactly this. Can you elaborate more on what you're getting at here?

Edited March 20 by cropo

[Maxposting]

least toxic dst balance thread;
y'all should chill out and focus on actually important stuff like how do the werepig spawns work, but most importantly...
Endless Fruitcake.

[ZeRoboButler]

To be fair, fuel weaver probably takes less effort to kill now with the introduction of bright shade stuff, especially the staff. 

easiest way I've done it is get a stack of gunpowder, wake him up light it, and kite him into the explosion, then fight as normal.

staff makes it pretty trivial, but I guess if people struggle with fuelweaver they will probably struggle with celestial champion. The way I see it, the fact that they not only said they will remove an exploit is completely fine, only really made better by the fact that they intend to look back on some older fights. I think it would be great for instead of beequeen spawning bees constantly, there could be new attacks in-between the spawns or how toadstool could have some of the trees be choppable but others be alive killable with their own set of attacks. 

A raid boss level fight, should have fun mechanics that would challenge the player as well give an interesting challenge to them. Ideally, fuelweaver shouldn't be changed, he is meant to be a large impasse for a reason. There is so much to be rewarded, so the fight should take more from you, with out a doubt.

Can't say im too upset, most farms I have seen will still function, hopefully some good can come from all this and people will try new strats. There is always another way, even if you can't see it just yet.

[Fufuji]

Just rework every single garbage boss, make their fights better and there will be much less cheese. For example AG rework.

Klei do has the ability to do this right, don't they?

[Szczuku]

Just now, Fufuji said:

Just rework every single garbage boss, make their fights better and there will be much less cheese. For example AG rework.

Klei do has the ability to do this right, don't they?

Of course not. Who would then be in charge of the 4th iteration of Wormwood's skilltree?

[The Starver]

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Sometimes your story sucks and you should change parts of it though

Not casting aspersions on anyone here.

The famous author of the Inheritance Cycle, Christopher Paolini, said "It doesn't make you a bad author if you write something bad. What makes you a bad author is if you don't change it." I'm really speaking to Klei here; this applies to game development as well.

[Copyafriend]

11 minutes ago, The Starver said:

The famous author of the Inheritance Cycle, Christopher Paolini

Did you know that he wrote a new book in this world? Its called murtagh and follows (obviously) murtagh after the events of inheritance 

[The Starver]

Just now, Copyafriend said:

Did you know that he wrote a new book in this world? Its called murtagh and follows (obviously) murtagh after the events of inheritance 

YES

I read it as soon as I could find it at my local lending library.