[Game Update] - 599141

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, cropo said:

If this bug stays:

No one is affected, allegedly Klei looks like a fool in the eyes of players looking up DST videos. Like, the first video they're going to see is a lureplant farm video, and immediately go ''Wow this game sucks, it's so unpolished" and never delve into the game or look into it any further. But being real here, no one is affected.

and this wouldn't even really be solved by removing the interaction because all the old videos showing it are gonna stay up regardless lol

Edited March 20, 2024 by Guille6785

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

There is variety in the game's bossfights; you just want ways that are cheap, easy and require no effort from you

i don't, i want stuff like using abigail, bramble husk, shadow prison, scare song, weather pains, lazy explorer, lunar fire, shadow fire, moonshroom hat etc. for fighting stuff instead of ham bat only being the best way to kill all bosses that i've listed, cheese should remain as an option because why not, you might not want to fight the boss for some reason e.g. not wanting to do the preparation or not liking it or not wanting to fight it now or idk, how does that hurt others considering they can not use cheese or not allow it if they're hosting a competition?

[Dingle]

7 hours ago, Yuuko said:

All that said - the question was - why are exploits bad.

This keeps coming up as an argument so I'll put in my thoughts, though I don't expect it to change anyone's mind.

Unfixed exploits can cause a certain level of lack of faith in the developers. Are all exploits/bugs just left in intentionally, as a temporary band-aid for design the developers consider bad? Should we bother reporting bugs or exploits? If Klei leaves in an exploit as a temporary solution for something they don't like, will they just rely on these band-aids to not fix the underlying issues for years? How many years did it take for them to change Ancient Guardian, because people could beat it using the pillars to get it stuck and just wail on it? Does leaving in Void Walking mean that they see something really wrong with the atrium/tentapillars/caves, but don't want to have to change it?

It also makes the developer intent very arbitrary. Every exploit is intentional. Until they fix it, then the fix is the developer intent. Though if they revert that fix due to outcry, it's also the developer's intent.

Example: Bee queen and boats. Intentional until it wasn't. But having her not path onto the water was also intentional. Now having her fly over the water is the intent, as a fix for getting her stuck on boats, and this can be really irritating.

[cropo]

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

What are you even talking about? Scrappy Werepig is a pre-rift boss afaik

Then let it work on him pre-rift, and let him trample it post-rift, since he's both a pre-rift and post-rift boss?

 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

And even if it wasn't, what's the logic here, where do we draw the line on which giant, magical creature can trample plants

I dunno, where do we draw the line on gold literally being used as a better mining tool, a campfire being able to warm the enchanted ice of an ice colossus, a small flower that farts lunar mist being able to send us flying with a tiny needle but a giant omega bear of destruction merely knocks an item out of our hand? 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Variety this, variety that. Y'all are acting like there are only two ways to kill a boss: legitimate and the no-brainer cheese. There's lots of variety in dst but it seems to me like you just don't want to put in the effort.

For gods sake, this is annoying me.

 

Lets make this clear, for the record, for everyone to see so people stop wasting their time with this repeated accusation.

 

Do you, honestly, like I'm looking you in the proverbial eye here. Do you honestly, believe, with all your heart, that we have not legitimately killed Fuelweaver, that we can't do it? Does any of you saying this....for GODS SAKE, I can't even complete this sentence. 

 

I need an answer for this, in fact, I think answering this question should be a bare minimum requirement for people engaging in this discussion who support this change. Do you think we cannot kill Fuelweaver?

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Let's use Bee Queen as an example. When Klei fixed the boat bug there were some forumites who were crying that their exploit got taken away.

Yeah it was dumb, she is still easily cheesable, nothing was changed except an option to cheese her was removed for no good reason. 

 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

You are all acting like you are now forced to fight him legitimately. But there's still planty of variety and even exploits. Klei took away the Bee Queen Boat exploit but you can still cheese her with Bunnymen. The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat.

So is the argument now that exploits are okay, as long as they come with a bunch of grinding?

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Same thing with AF. You can still have a varied experience: farm up for a stack of gunpowder and nuke the boss when he enters the healing phase. Put down a shootius and have it assist you in a fight, not do it for you on a crippled boss. Wear the moonshroom funcap and use the spores to pop the woven shadows. Hell, even explot him: switch to Winona, farm rocks and build catapults in the atrium.

Does this take away the fact that an option was, nonetheless, removed, and that nothing has been gained on your part by its removal? Why bring all this up?

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief;

For me personally? No, it's what comes after the death of Fuelweaver that I'm after. There is no fun fighting Fuelweaver for the 34th time for me, but my motivations or desires are irrelevant to the argument that if I were to cheese fuelweaver with Lureplant, it would have been my decision to make, and would not negatively impact your experience in any way.

36 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

There are ways to take these bosses down in a varied way

And one of those options was taken away, for no good reason besides "Haha, suck it cheesers, now you gotta fight it a way I deem appropriate!". Truly a sad state of affairs, that's not a reason to remove things. 

 

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

how about Klei adds godmode toggle to dst? When you spawn in a new world there's just going to be a toggle that gives you godmode() and freecrafting(). I mean, people won't be forced to use it, it's just there for those who might want a different experience. Surely this would be healthy for the game, the more variety the better

Uh, isn't there a toggle for god mode in the console? Like, you have the power to literally press a key and type in a word to turn it on? Or do you mean without the console, like setting the damage enemies do to you to zero? A lot of survival games have creative modes that are exactly this. Can you elaborate more on what you're getting at here?

Edited March 20, 2024 by cropo

[Maxposting]

least toxic dst balance thread;
y'all should chill out and focus on actually important stuff like how do the werepig spawns work, but most importantly...
Endless Fruitcake.

[ZeRoboButler]

To be fair, fuel weaver probably takes less effort to kill now with the introduction of bright shade stuff, especially the staff. 

easiest way I've done it is get a stack of gunpowder, wake him up light it, and kite him into the explosion, then fight as normal.

staff makes it pretty trivial, but I guess if people struggle with fuelweaver they will probably struggle with celestial champion. The way I see it, the fact that they not only said they will remove an exploit is completely fine, only really made better by the fact that they intend to look back on some older fights. I think it would be great for instead of beequeen spawning bees constantly, there could be new attacks in-between the spawns or how toadstool could have some of the trees be choppable but others be alive killable with their own set of attacks. 

A raid boss level fight, should have fun mechanics that would challenge the player as well give an interesting challenge to them. Ideally, fuelweaver shouldn't be changed, he is meant to be a large impasse for a reason. There is so much to be rewarded, so the fight should take more from you, with out a doubt.

Can't say im too upset, most farms I have seen will still function, hopefully some good can come from all this and people will try new strats. There is always another way, even if you can't see it just yet.

[Fufuji]

Just rework every single garbage boss, make their fights better and there will be much less cheese. For example AG rework.

Klei do has the ability to do this right, don't they?

[Szczuku]

Just now, Fufuji said:

Just rework every single garbage boss, make their fights better and there will be much less cheese. For example AG rework.

Klei do has the ability to do this right, don't they?

Of course not. Who would then be in charge of the 4th iteration of Wormwood's skilltree?

[The Starver]

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Sometimes your story sucks and you should change parts of it though

Not casting aspersions on anyone here.

The famous author of the Inheritance Cycle, Christopher Paolini, said "It doesn't make you a bad author if you write something bad. What makes you a bad author is if you don't change it." I'm really speaking to Klei here; this applies to game development as well.

[Copyafriend]

11 minutes ago, The Starver said:

The famous author of the Inheritance Cycle, Christopher Paolini

Did you know that he wrote a new book in this world? Its called murtagh and follows (obviously) murtagh after the events of inheritance 

[The Starver]

Just now, Copyafriend said:

Did you know that he wrote a new book in this world? Its called murtagh and follows (obviously) murtagh after the events of inheritance 

YES

I read it as soon as I could find it at my local lending library.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

This keeps coming up as an argument so I'll put in my thoughts, though I don't expect it to change anyone's mind.

Unfixed exploits can cause a certain level of lack of faith in the developers. Are all exploits/bugs just left in intentionally, as a temporary band-aid for design the developers consider bad? Should we bother reporting bugs or exploits? If Klei leaves in an exploit as a temporary solution for something they don't like, will they just rely on these band-aids to not fix the underlying issues for years? How many years did it take for them to change Ancient Guardian, because people could beat it using the pillars to get it stuck and just wail on it? Does leaving in Void Walking mean that they see something really wrong with the atrium/tentapillars/caves, but don't want to have to change it?

It also makes the developer intent very arbitrary. Every exploit is intentional. Until they fix it, then the fix is the developer intent. Though if they revert that fix due to outcry, it's also the developer's intent.

Example: Bee queen and boats. Intentional until it wasn't. But having her not path onto the water was also intentional. Now having her fly over the water is the intent, as a fix for getting her stuck on boats, and this can be really irritating.

Sure - lets lay some things out.  Lets go over bugs vs unintended interactions, when they are bad for the game ie should actively be targeted and removed by devs, and when they are actually good for the game and their removal would actually be a mistake.

Bugs: A bug is code that is not working as written.  Bugs are bad for the game on a fundamental level, because code not working as written / documented is a development hurdle for maintenance and new content.  Bugs should always be fixed.  However bugs need to be prioritized.  IF a bug does not cause server instability or unfairness between players it can be considered low priority and may never be addressed.  Also if a bug is being exploited for value, the value of the exploit should be noted and considered by the devs.  Still fix the bug, but note that this behavior is a manifestation of player desire - there is something players want, and you should probably look at how to build that into the game.

Unintended Interaction: Here Lock and Key design stands in contrast to Emergent gameplay.  When we want an open ended game where players can explore in their own direction, and solve things with their own wits then we want Emergent Gameplay to be the goal.  The lureplant blocking a mob is an exemplary example of emergent gameplay.  The qualities of the lureplant are that it obstructs mobs, and has wildfire priority.  Both of these can be exploited by the player to great effect IF the player wants.  No situation requires it, it is just an option available.  Ironically removing something like the lureplant interactions and replacing it with a lock&key "this item blocks pathing" thing destroys the credibility of the game.

An important thing for developers of emergent games to remember is that they aren't trying to force the players into specific interaction loops.  Unfortunately this is the change DST has undertaken in the latest arc... much to my displeasure.  I am 100% here for the emergent gameplay and only see my joy leaking away as more restricted, forced interactions are added.  Klei's hand is too heavy on the wheel with a lot of the new stuff.  Taking away the fun, creative, unintuitive but "it works" things about the game that aren't actually bugs absolutely ruins the game.

 

There is a consideration of balance, but I think people misconstrue this a lot.  What matters is fairness between players.  If the player has the access to AFW, and could beat it, does it matter if they did it with a bunch of items they gathered or with a lureplant?  would you even know if you arrived at the arena later?  This kinda reminds me of the time when some players were complaining about ruins rushing.  They would go on about how this strategy is bad because by the time they get to the ruins its been stripped clean...  Well, fairness between players here has nothing to do with cheese and everything to do with limited supply.  The problem is that another player can't get a bone armor, regardless of how AFW was defeated.  The lureplant isn't why, they could have defeated it another way and you'd still be lacking another bone armor.

 

8 hours ago, kroban said:

And hey, I use this cheese all the time,

The fight itself is a huge pain, most players (myself included) end up "locked with the immortal FW"

So yes, I can understand this cheese being a "necessary evil" for most players right now. But thats because the fight itself is horrible.

There are typically 2 positions that people really hold when they make the anti-cheese argument.  One is from the perspective of the elitist who has accomplished the task being cheesed and feels their own skill and effort is diminished because another can do it in a different way without needing so much skill and practice.  The other is from the perspective of someone who feels the cheese is necessary, and that they need to use it as a crutch - but don't like that they feel they need to use it.

Both sides provide unconvincing arguments.

From the pro players - No one disrespects the craft of a well executed fight.  Just look at some of the amazing plays some top tier players have put in for AFW fight, dodging bone cage, timing the stun to do the entire fight at low sanity, meticulously kiting AFW to stall the woven phase without using weather pains, even using characters like Wendy and Wes to extend the fight *longer* to really illustrate their consistency in their tactics.  I marvel at these plays, and seeing them fills my mind with anticipation to enter the fight trying these tactics for myself.  They are very difficult maneuvers to execute, but when it comes together just the sheer fulfillment of achieving this difficult fight in such a way is overwhelming.  More joy than I get from most other fights in the game.  No, the cheese existing and other players using it does not diminish the impressive skill employed in these fights.

From the crutch players - You really can do the fight.  Its not bad to use the cheese to obtain the rewards first if it helps, you can always come back to the fight again.  Use the world to adjust your difficulty to ease you into it.  For AFW you can start with adding catapults around the arena, stocking up on healing, utilizing marble suits to tank and trade during his vulnerable times, and even picking a character with perks that help like Wolfgangs higher damage to speed the fight up, or Wortox to teleport out of bone cages.  Do whatever you need to do to move from lureplants to the next step.  Many of these things are also considered cheese, but don't let that bother you the point is your own personal improvement as a player.  Once you accomplish that next step, look at how you can further improve your skill as a player.  Maybe drop the catapults, or change characters etc.  Work your way through until you have learned the fight well enough to feel satisfied with your accomplishment.  The cheese does not stop you.  You can do it!

3 hours ago, Szczuku said:

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief; or that you start a brand new world with each character just so that you can kill AF with lureplant cheese instead of the normal way. Y'all are defending the lureplant cheese because it allows you to effortlessly take the difficult boss down.

I always fight AFW manually the first time I go at it.  Always.  After that it depends - if I'm just needing another bone armor / helm / ruins reset then I'll lureplant cheese him to do it quickly.  If I want to actually fight him then I'll set up whatever tactics I want to use for that fight and go to it.  I've done the fight in a lot of different ways, and enjoyed them all.  My favorite is Wanda, who can utilize her range to cheese AFW during the vulnerable times to out range him, use backstep to escape bone cages, kiting AFW around instead of weather pains to deal with wovens, using nm amulet to trigger insanity to clear hands and bee queen crown to maintain sanity.  I'm also enjoying beta Willow's lunar flame enhancement to clear wovens, and I use lazy explorers to escape cages, Bernie to help position / control AFW and stay insane the whole fight.

I don't think changing from ham bat to glass cutter is variety...  Just changing weapon?  Nah.  I want the fight to actually FEEL different.  Also cheese like lureplant is great when we don't actually want to do the fight, just farm it.  Like setting up catapults for Bee Queen.  I don't get why boat cheese was removed, imo it was a bad change.  It added nothing to the game and removed one option that *some* people used, not even a lot of people because it also involved still dealing with minions and tanking BQueen.  Its easier to do other methods like bunny men, oven, or pan flute than it was for boat cheese.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Yuuko

[Pep61]

It's funny how a lureplant opened pandora's box. LOL

Let's look at it this way:

- It's more likely that if the patch is done to pre rift bosses, they will also take a look on the fight mechanics, and (probably) do a bit of an overhaul.

 

- Take AG for example , for years we took for granted that the pillar cheesing was our only way of dealing with that oversized rook skin. But now after the patch the fight got more interesting , new pahse , new loot , new mechanics. Way more fun to fight overall.

- Klei is not of those that will just take something away, they will also give us something in return as well. So i'm mostly certain that if they patch pre rift lureplant bosses they'll revisit and prob even rework some of those boss mechanics.  (talking specifically about fw and toad/misery rn).

- I love cheesing fw for the sake of quick and cheap ruins resetting, (since the loot quickly piles up and it's not like we could turn them into fossils (Come on klei... tweak that up lol)) The fight is fun , but tedious and punishing to any timing mistake (like Ck) if they can come up with a good balance of patching and reworking I welcome this changes.

 Misery on the other hand .... may god have mercy on us if klei doesn't reworks it lol. 


TL;DR We are still on beta , take the changes with a pinch of salt and keep the feedback coming, the more the merrier, as long as it is constructive . And embrace the changes we have yet to come.

PD. There will always be new ways to cheese bosses. One door closes but a window opens LMFAO

PD2. Pls rework ck lol. 

Edited March 20, 2024 by Pep61

[00petar00]

4 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Let's use Bee Queen as an example. When Klei fixed the boat bug there were some forumites who were crying that their exploit got taken away.

This is the same thing that is happening right now with Fuelweaver.

You are all acting like you are now forced to fight him legitimately. But there's still planty of variety and even exploits. Klei took away the Bee Queen Boat exploit but you can still cheese her with Bunnymen. The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat.

I was one of the people that was against boat bee queen fix and it is a very disingenuous to say that boat bee queen method was easy or took no effort, all it did was stop bee queen from moving but you still had to tank and kill her grumble bees.

4 hours ago, Szczuku said:

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief; or that you start a brand new world with each character just so that you can kill AF with lureplant cheese instead of the normal way. Y'all are defending the lureplant cheese because it allows you to effortlessly take the difficult boss down.

Its not exciting but at the same time I don't have to fight a boss "legit" by your standards for the 34th time as I won't be having fun doing that either.

 

Edited March 20, 2024 by 00petar00

[Copyafriend]

34 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

 

An important thing for developers of emergent games to remember is that they aren't trying to force the players into specific interaction loops.  Unfortunately this is the change DST has undertaken in the latest arc... much to my displeasure.  I am 100% here for the emergent gameplay and only see my joy leaking away as more restricted, forced interactions are added.  Klei's hand is too heavy on the wheel with a lot of the new stuff.  Taking away the fun, creative, unintuitive but "it works" things about the game that aren't actually bugs absolutely ruins the game.

 

There is a consideration of balance, but I think people misconstrue this a lot.  What matters is fairness between players.  If the player has the access to AFW, and could beat it, does it matter if they did it with a bunch of items they gathered or with a lureplant?  would you even know if you arrived at the arena later?  This kinda reminds me of the time when some players were complaining about ruins rushing.  They would go on about how this strategy is bad because by the time they get to the ruins its been stripped clean...  Well, fairness between players here has nothing to do with cheese and everything to do with limited supply.  The problem is that another player can't get a bone armor, regardless of how AFW was defeated.  The lureplant isn't why, they could have defeated it another way and you'd still be lacking another bone armor.

 

There are typically 2 positions that people really hold when they make the anti-cheese argument.  One is from the perspective of the elitist who has accomplished the task being cheesed and feels their own skill and effort is diminished because another can do it in a different way without needing so much skill and practice.  The other is from the perspective of someone who feels the cheese is necessary, and that they need to use it as a crutch - but don't like that they feel they need to use it.

 

i am gonna try to argue this from a game design point of view. Note, i primarily mean that i’m arguing from the point of view of someone who is developing a game, but not necessarily klei themselves.
 

 

I think a lot of the problem i have with the way some people form their argument is that a lot of then assume that more options is inherently better. something that i fundamentally disagree with. Another opinion shared is that if its fun it should be kept in, something else i also disagree with, but to a lesser degree.

I think that cheese is fine and good generally speaking. A little bit of a semi cheaty way to do things thats clever is often good for the health of the game. People feel clever, the solution works, its overall a good time. There is nothing wrong with a classic “fun bug” thats left in as an easter egg either. At the end of the day games ARE meant for fun.

but that doesn’t mean that cheese should always be allowed either. Everything in moderation, every “piece of cheese” considered in a vacuum if possible. Just because its useful or interesting or even fun does not necessarily imply that it should remain. Sometimes it’s more important that a character is shown in a certain light, than it is that maximum options be maintained. Additionally, a cheese can be so effective as to kill the fun of the act itself. 
 

one phrase i’ve seen in game design, is that a player will optimize the fun out of the game if you let them.

you can see this with players in skyrim casting “soul trap” on a dead body for hours on end to level conjuration, or standing at the throat of the world to grind healing. These are not inherently fun things to do, but they ARE effective at achieving what the players want to do.

so then the question becomes, what do the players want to do. 
 

well, to be honest, i have not once seen someone say in so many words: that they WANT to farm AFW 100+ times. The farm is a product of what they want. 
 

which i assume is bone armor/bone helm and a ruins reset. 
 

well, they CAN farm it, and it DOES solve those problems to a certain extent. However (at least for me) this presents a problem. The ancient fuel weaver is meant to be one of two intimidating final bosses of the first half of the game. It’s effectively the wall of flesh from terraria. 

But it can be killed with zero effort. 
 

this hurts the intended tone for those “in the know” so to speak. While the ancient fuelweaver is meant to be an intimidating “lord of shadow” (my term) he is instead an easily cheesable roadblock unless you choose to fight him on even footing.

his lunar counterpart has no such easily obtained cheese, and must be farmed traditionally.

therefore we are met with THE problem: the players are accustomed to easily obtaining repeat copies of the end game boss gear, but that boss is meant to be intimidating and tough to beat.

well if the goal is the secondary materials, what we can and could do is simply provide the player with alternatives.

instead of cheesing the boss, make the helmet refuelable. Its primarily used for farming an obsolete resource (as of this bossfight) and inducing insanity (which we already have an item for this) anyway.

As for the armor, it’s indestructible and refuelable already, they shouldn’t need many copies to be satisfied.

the ruins reset is a bit tricky, but i think it could be handled outside of the fuelweaver fight. Simply make an expensive “ruins resetting” machine that pulses the ruins back into a undestroyed state. Likely using lots of pure horror and dreadstone. Give it a cooldown and you have a solid (if overly simple) alternative to fuelweaver.

 

 

now i present this as a compromise to any pro cheese players. Not as an argument for why to patch it, but as a solution that klei might in theory enact. Would you be mad about this change? Do you think that the cheese is inherently important to the argument, or do you think its more about the secondary benefits of the cheese.

[Szczuku]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

you might not want to fight the boss for some reason e.g. not wanting to do the preparation or not liking it or not wanting to fight it now

56 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Also cheese like lureplant is great when we don't actually want to do the fight, just farm it.

Then you don't fight the boss and you don't get the benefits that come from fighting the boss. When you feel like fighting the boss, you fight the boss. Simple as.

Not to mention that the last year of updates has made it so that defeating AF and CC after fighting them once is easier

There is no discussion to be had here if your point literally boils down to "I want boss rewards without having to fight the boss"

4 hours ago, cropo said:

So is the argument now that exploits are okay, as long as they come with a bunch of grinding?

Yes, being rewarded for putting in the effort is usually how video games go

23 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

it is a very disingenuous to say that boat bee queen method was easy or took no effort, all it did was stop bee queen from moving but you still had to tank and kill her grumble bees.

Oh sure, it only got rid of Bee Queen's honey trail and kiting mechanics which totally don't matter when fighting her

[grm9]

35 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Then you don't fight the boss and you don't get the benefits that come from fighting the boss. When you feel like fighting the boss, you fight the boss. Simple as.

Not to mention that the last year of updates has made it so that defeating AF and CC after fighting them once is easier

There is no discussion to be had here if your point literally boils down to "I want boss rewards without having to fight the boss"

why not though? you still didn't name any reasons about why people should play the way you think is right

35 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Oh sure, it only got rid of Bee Queen's honey trail and kiting mechanics which totally don't matter when fighting her

they don't except BQ flying away wasting a bit of time since you'd usually tank it anyway

35 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

There is no discussion to be had here

35 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Oh sure, it only

35 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

totally don't matter

learn how to talk to people without causing disgust, all of those were written only to annoy and provoke

Edited March 20, 2024 by grm9

[Mysterious box]

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The fight is good but the annoying part is managing the inventory and not everyone can do it. The boss doesn't need to be reworked at all, there are much more important ones like Bee Queen and Dragonfly (minions) that are terrible for solo players without using a method to remove them from the fight.

This is a contradiction if the boss is being cheesed because the heavy requirements for some players is too much then it should be reworked for the causal player if nothing else keeping it as is only helps veteran players or players in the know.

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

hope they won't turn FW into another "do the boss' gimmick and hold F on it until it wakes up" fight that only requires you to have a weapon and do something extremely intuitive and easy, AG is also boring and got stale fast because there's practically no risk because shadow tentacles are very easy to see and the boss can't deal damage to you if you hide behind a pillar, if FW would get turned into that i'd definitely do cheese just so i spend less time doing boring stuff

As much as us veteran players might not like this direction if the goal is to make the game more accessible this kind of needs to happen as most people prefer bosses having obvious tells or weakened states.

 

9 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

It's absolutely not a "totally separate discussion"; the end result is pretty much the same. And watching people cackle with glee as other people lose things they enjoy, I don't feel particularly bad for not being super nice about it.

I mean as much as people like to pretend it doesn't their existence does infact effect the experience of other players unless your playing solo.

Personally I do agree with the decision to hold back on removing the exploits unless the bosses are reworked and I think what we should do is offer suggestions for alternative paths boss fights can take for example make water balloons more effective against dragonfly.

[Sapientis]

23 hours ago, V2C said:

Fixed Dragonfly Furnace being able to destroy the Eternal Fruitcake. Not even this heat can destroy this present.

I'm sorry, but is there any chance that Dragonfly Furnace's heat could cook stacks of items? I'm even up for a reflex minigame to take food out before animation finishes so the food isn't fully destroyed but only cooked.

p l e a s e

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

one phrase i’ve seen in game design, is that a player will optimize the fun out of the game if you let them.

you can see this with players in skyrim casting “soul trap” on a dead body for hours on end to level conjuration, or standing at the throat of the world to grind healing. These are not inherently fun things to do, but they ARE effective at achieving what the players want to do.

so then the question becomes, what do the players want to do. 

Generally a good post, and I agree with a lot of the sentiment.  I think the last line is very important - what do players *want* to do.

In game design it is essential to consider the motivations of the players, and to carefully weigh where things become tedious or stretched out as these can become point where players feel the need to optimize / exploit / out right cheat.  In your example of Skyrim the character has skills they need to max out to accomplish certain tasks they *want* to do, but there are few tasks they *want* to do which accomplish maxing out these skills.  So they find ways to optimize for the skill growth since there is no more-fun alternative.  Similarly in Monster Hunter Rise the talismans and armor augments are randomly generated.  In order to get a good one for your build you need to repeatedly farm the materials and roll these RNG tables over and over again.

IF in Skyrim the player was able to perform certain quests that gave significant gains in their skills that allowed them to chart out a path to maxing a skill through purposeful play they would.  IF MHRise gave the players a way to combine specific materials to determine the skills on their talismans and armor augments instead of rolling RNG tables they would.  The game doesn't give them this though - and why?  idk about Skyrim, but I know for MH its because they wanted to design a grindy end-game and the best way to do that is to give the players a massive resource sink so that the player NEEDS to keep playing and can never fully optimize.  The downside of this is player burnout, many players just stop caring and quit, or they resort to cheat engines to just give them their desired stats.  Certainly in Skyrim you probably have the same thing, people who drop the game because fully maxing specific skills is too tedious or they install cheat engines to just set the character stats as desired.

IMO those are great examples of game design gone wrong.  They let the players optimize the fun out of the game because the game did not provide a fun way to play optimally.

2 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

well, to be honest, i have not once seen someone say in so many words: that they WANT to farm AFW 100+ times. The farm is a product of what they want. 
 

which i assume is bone armor/bone helm and a ruins reset. 

I would say there are 2 reasons to cheese AFW.  You can't defeat it but want to experience the next tier of content, or you've done it but don't want to go through the lengthy fight involved.

If you can't defeat it, and the cheese helps then congrats.  Hopefully this can be a stepping stone towards actually challenging the boss - as I detailed in another post.  DST is a difficult game, with a lot to learn.  Cheese can work like difficulty sliders to help a player skill up on a boss.  I don't need every player to pass the fight in the hardest way possible to enjoy something they could give themselves with a console command anyway.  If they start with a lureplant and become acquainted with the path to AFW (shadow pieces, ruins, AG, atrium,) that is enough imo.  After getting familiar with that they can go overboard with cheese like catapults, healing foods, etc and have fun playing the fight without the stress of "needing" to beat it.  As they improve they can enjoy taking away cheese until they complete it in a way that satisfies them.

If you can defeat it, then as you say you're just repeating it.  Repeating AFW is NOTHING like its lunar counter part.  Sans cheese, not only is the AFW fight significantly more difficult, tedious, and demanding compared to CC but the whole path to the boss needs to be repeated as well.  When I'm playing with 4 ppl on a server and we finish AFW only one person has bone armor.  Since it has been done, we might not all be clamoring to repeat it right away - it might be just 1 more person who wants bone armor and needs to get a set for themselves running back and doing it all alone.  Why NOT let them cheese it?

 

imo the AFW fight is plenty fun, its also plenty tough!  This is a fight I like to do, but I don't like to do every single time I want to reset the ruins.  But what is the alternative?  Magic ruins reset machine?  bah, lock & key is not the way DST needs to go.  There is nothing wrong with repeating AFW to reset the ruins, provide AFW doesn't force you to play only the hardest difficulty version.  Cheese lets you change the fight to make it easier to run back, let it go.

[Cruvimaster]

On 3/19/2024 at 9:02 PM, V2C said:

Changes

• The Nightmare/Scrappy Werepig will no longer spawn in both the Forest and Cave at the same time. Some beta worlds may still have both active until they are defeated.

 

Having to wait 20 days (I think that's the counter) to defeat the one in the caves to access the one on the surface is very slow. It could be reduced to 10 days.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Sapientis said:

I'm sorry, but is there any chance that Dragonfly Furnace's heat could cook stacks of items? I'm even up for a reflex minigame to take food out before animation finishes so the food isn't fully destroyed but only cooked.

p l e a s e

This is the best idea I’ve seen in this entire topic. I Applause your creativity Sir or Madam. 

[Evelo]

I leave for a day and this is what happens? Holy Carp.

[somethin]

Other sandbox game players when the dev decided to remove cheese: Damn, better find new ways to cheese

DST players when the dev decided to remove cheese:

[zhangsheng]

27 minutes ago, somethin said:

Other sandbox game players when the dev decided to remove cheese: Damn, better find new ways to cheese

DST players when the dev decided to remove cheese:

It can only be said that if all bosses could be as excellent as Ancient Guardian, then the player's first reaction would definitely not be like this. With bosses like Toadstool, people will have to use other methods.