[Game Update] - 599141

[Mike23Ua]

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why?

Because instead of exploits Klei could make the boss fights fun and creative..

I have a few suggestions for the AFW fight even though I’ve never killed him myself, I still strongly feel like “Creature linked to being in this Area near this thing.. should obviously be able to get weaker the further away from said area the player can get said creature.”

And while I’m fully aware that’s NOT the way the AFW fight works right now… (I actually got the idea from the player running MacTusks away from their igloos before they try to flee back to their homes) 

AFW has to be built in a specific area (the only area it can be reanimated back to life in BtW) so…. It makes a hell of a lot of sense that if you can kite it further and further away from that source of life giving power- it grows weaker.

But before we can get a fight like that- Klei has to remove the EXPLOITS of being able to throw plants down to prevent it from returning back to its power source 

(Scrappy Werepig & its Trash Weapons)

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because instead of exploits Klei could make the boss fights fun and creative..

As much as I dislike AFW after fighting him enough times, he is probably the most creative boss fight in the entire game and utilizes every kind of mechanic you've learned up to that point. 

 

The only thing I'd actually change myself, personally, is the availability of Weather Pains, or a cheaper but far less useful multi-hit range attack for 1hp mobs(pre-rift). Fuelweaver is mostly fine, it's Weather Pains that are the problem.....for me anyway. Would be nice to change the volt goat ingredient into scrap, or make a ''scrap weather pain'' that sucks a little more than the real one but doesn't require you to farm volt goats.

Edited March 20, 2024 by cropo

[Arcwell]

Not a fan of the lureplant change :/. I understand it was intended for Scrappy Werepig and that's fine, but as others have mentioned it has implications for at least FW, Toadstool, and moonrock farming.

With regards to FW, to be clear: this does not "fix an exploit." FW was cheeseable and is still cheeseable with the lureplant change, the strategy just becomes more annoying / time-consuming, which if you ask me benefits no one.

All of that said, if the plan is to change lureplants so they can only be trampled by post-rift enemies, I can be happy with that.

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because instead of exploits Klei could make the boss fights fun and creative..

 

He asked why exploits are bad, not whatever you decided to answer.

AFW is a fun fight.  I enjoy fighting it a lot in the many different ways that I can.  That includes doing it with Wes, Wanda, Willow, Wolfgang, with weather pains or kiting, with catapults or not, and yes even with lureplant blocking.  The fight is already fun and creative, AND this exploit also exists along side it.

All that said - the question was - why are exploits bad.

[BezKa]

For once I'm not the seething "new feature bad" person, nice

[00petar00]

10 hours ago, V2C said:

Lureplants can now be trampled by creatures that can trample through obstacles and structures.

A really bad change, unless playing wormwood it isn't easy to gather lureplants and you'd need to wait for spring and kill deerclops and AG to make houndious shootius if you wanted to kill Fuelweaver like this.

There is also moon rock farming method that is very important because there are so few options.

This is much worse for Toadstool because of his HP and the fight is so much less fun compared to FW.

Like the previous Bee Queen boat patch this just removes options from players.

7 hours ago, V2C said:

We are likely going to change the Lureplant fix to only affect the newer content.  We decided to fix this now because of how it affected the Scrappy Werepig before he could even reach the Junk Pile to pick up his first weapon.

Just got to this part of the thread but I decided to leave what I wrote about lureplants previously because this doesn't confirm it 100%.

5 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

Here we go again, devs are pressured to make changes like these because of a few players that want to force others to play the way they play the game. The more options there are for a fight the better it is.

At first I really liked Nightmare Werepig fight but now like every new boss is getting similar mechanics charge ability and fatigue when you are supposed to dodge or hit and only have one way of defeating them.

2 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Try this - DON'T.

Completely agree with your entire post, its as if you took the words from my mouth.

A big part of sandbox games are choices and we are not getting any from the new boss fights while the bosses before rift are getting "fixed".

Choices matter so much for replayability of a game.

 

Edited March 20, 2024 by 00petar00

[Mike23Ua]

21 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

He asked why exploits are bad, not whatever you decided to answer.

 the question was - why are exploits bad.

But I answered that question? Exploits are bad, because they limit potential mechanic reworks.

Theres a difference between getting Klaus stuck on his loot stash so you can just stand there smacking him. And gathering a bazillion bees/bunnies for the CK/BQ fights.

Pinning a boss in with Lureplants is obviously another one of those “get Klaus stuck on his loot stash” situations Klei wanted to fix.

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But I answered that question? Exploits are bad, because they limit potential mechanic reworks.

No they don't though?

[Faintly Macabre]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But I answered that question? Exploits are bad, because they limit potential mechanic reworks.

Except that lureplants keeping AFW from getting to the gate to turn it off does not in any way prevent Klei from retooling the fight, and some other things don't actually need to be changed.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Faintly Macabre

[00petar00]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But I answered that question? Exploits are bad, because they limit potential mechanic reworks.

Theres a difference between getting Klaus stuck on his loot stash so you can just stand there smacking him. And gathering a bazillion bees/bunnies for the CK/BQ fights.

Pinning a boss in with Lureplants is obviously another one of those “get Klaus stuck on his loot stash” situations Klei wanted to fix.

That was a terrible fix, very immersion breaking and only to stop Wanda and maybe it is also useful for Walter. All other characters now can't use loot stash to hide behind when he lunges at you in the second stage.

How does this limit boss reworks? It just gives you more options and you can decide how you want to kill a boss.

10 hours ago, V2C said:

Fixed Dragonfly Furnace being able to destroy the Eternal Fruitcake. Not even this heat can destroy this present.

The point of furnace is to delete unwanted items, why are we unable to delete eternal fruitcake? It literally defeats the purpose and we will still need to use lureplants.

Edited March 20, 2024 by 00petar00

[Cruvimaster]

48 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Here we go again, devs are pressured to make changes like these because of a few players that want to force others to play the way they play the game. The more options there are for a fight the better it is.

It is at least shameful for a developer to openly accept that there are serious flaws in the programming. This pseudo-argument that is fun doesn't work for them.

A boss that is stuck helplessly just being beaten is something that many developer companies simply would not accept in their games.

The issue is that they forgot that ending the exploid for the new boss affected the old ones and now they are going back on it.

 

However, it's good to focus on all the great work done by the developers in this beta.

Many incredible things are happening and an old exploit cannot dim the shine of this future update.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Cruvimaster

[00petar00]

1 minute ago, Cruvimaster said:

It is at least shameful for a developer to openly accept that there are serious flaws in the programming. This pseudo-argument that is fun doesn't work for them.

A boss that is stuck helplessly just being beaten is something that many developer companies simply would not accept in their games.

The issue is that they forgot that ending the exploid for the new boss affected the old ones and now they are going back on it.

Scrappy werepig being stuck on lureplant would be a good thing because it would add another option to fight the boss but I understand why it is removed as all bosses post rift don't have that interaction.

The issue I have is that game will be more boring when more content like that is added, how is it not a contradiction to sandbox genre if there is only one intended linear way to kill a boss? What If all bosses get every different method of fighting them "fixed" and you are left with one?

 

[GLERMZ]

7 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

I fully understand the need to fix bugs and exploits from a dev point, specially when it comes to boss fights where you not even allowing the boss to use his mechanics, but please try your best to not ruin some of the best fights this game has, specially the best one, Fuelweaver. If the option is tweaking Fuelweaver and fix the exploits, i would rather have the exploits for people who need them than having the fight change for the worse.

The rest of the update continues to be a banger. Sad that we will have to wait for the new hail mechanics but i know its for the best!!

Edited March 20, 2024 by GLERMZ

[landromat]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

The devs are welcome to ruin their game if they want.  The more my plays, and streams of DST look like the same footage on loop the less I'm inclined to bother with it.  Its as simple as that.

This is why "difficulty" is such an important thing to understand.  If difficulty really equates to less viable options then it also equates to the game losing value to players.  If there is only 1 way to play a game then it will only be played once and only by the few players who like that specific way of playing.

ask for more ways to play then, not to keep exploits

[Dragonboooorn]

players of so called uncompromising survival game when they cant cheese bosses with bugs anymore

[cropo]

7 minutes ago, Dragonboooorn said:

players of so called uncompromising survival game when they cant cheese bosses with bugs anymore

It's like we're not a hivemind with the same opinions on things.

 

Players when a harmless mechanic that has to purposefully be enacted by the player and doesn't affect them is possible to do in the game.

[Faintly Macabre]

33 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

The point of furnace is to delete unwanted items, why are we unable to delete eternal fruitcake?

Because it's funny. I think the devs should be allowed to have fun now and then.

[qwp18]

8 hours ago, V2C said:

Just to answer a few questions:

New features related to Lunar Hail will come in a future update, NOT part of this update (Scrappy Scavengers) beta or live release.

Upgrading Scaled Chests are still coming to this update.

We'll make crafting work with ingredients in containers opened from your inventory.

We are likely going to change the Lureplant fix to only affect the newer content.  We decided to fix this now because of how it affected the Scrappy Werepig before he could even reach the Junk Pile to pick up his first weapon.

Love you klei, thank you for so much transparency and communication with the community compared to thousands of other games <3

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, Dragonboooorn said:

players of so called uncompromising survival game when they cant cheese bosses with bugs anymore

true, they shouldn't be allowed to have fun the way they want, the less people playing the game the better ig, especially if it becomes impossible for them to have fun the way they previously did after they bought the game

[Cruvimaster]

25 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Scrappy werepig being stuck on lureplant would be a good thing because it would add another option to fight the boss but I understand why it is removed as all bosses post rift don't have that interaction.

The issue I have is that game will be more boring when more content like that is added, how is it not a contradiction to sandbox genre if there is only one intended linear way to kill a boss? What If all bosses get every different method of fighting them "fixed" and you are left with one?

 

 

The biggest difficulty in analyzing an "exploit" is the fact that to some extent it was implemented natively in the game.

Maxwell exists and he blocks Klaus, Dragonfly, Ancient Fuelweaver and everything in the game. What was exploid became a native mechanic.

Of course, there is an active combat stance on the part of the player and it consumes some resources, but it would be the equivalent of using walls, signs and lureplants.

So what would be valid or invalid in the game? I just don't know.

What I know is that any debate about exploits loses relevance, as there is the express approval of the developers.

One day they will change, but that day may be 10 years from now.

[grm9]

47 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

It is at least shameful for a developer to openly accept that there are serious flaws in the programming

it's obvious that they simply don't want to remove it because it isn't harmful because it can be removed by adding local function kill(inst) inst.components.health:Kill() end outside the prefab function and inst:AddComponent("workable"); inst.components.workable:SetAction(nil); inst.components.workable:SetOnFinishCallback(kill); inst:AddTag("NPC_workable") in prefab function which isn't hard and is similar to what they did with campfires

Edited March 20, 2024 by grm9

[00petar00]

21 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Because it's funny. I think the devs should be allowed to have fun now and then.

Making a game worse for fun? I won't ever see this as a good thing. We finally got a replacement for lureplant item deletion and in the same update its not able to delete all items.

10 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The biggest difficulty in analyzing an "exploit" is the fact that to some extent it was implemented natively in the game.

Maxwell exists and he blocks Klaus, Dragonfly, Ancient Fuelweaver and everything in the game. What was exploid became a native mechanic.

Of course, there is an active combat stance on the part of the player and it consumes some resources, but it would be the equivalent of using walls, signs and lureplants.

So what would be valid or invalid in the game? I just don't know.

A big selling point for DST is sandbox.

Sandbox game definition: A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity. to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective.

If we have only one way to kill a boss and everything else is "fixed" that part of the game isn't sandbox anymore.

Edited March 20, 2024 by 00petar00

[allmeitysk]

8 hours ago, Evelo said:

Unfortunate to read this. But I guess this indeed is meant to be an "intended" solution for defeating some bosses. Such a shame.

Its not intended, its a strategy you can or you dont use. Why care, who uses it? If you dont, im happy for you, enjoy your  game, but why it bothers anyone - that I use lureplant to cheese farming moon rock? 

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Making a game worse for fun? I won't ever see this as a good thing. We finally got a replacement for lureplant item deletion and in the same update its not able to delete all items.

A big selling point for DST is sandbox.

Sandbox game definition: A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity. to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective.

If we have only one way to kill a boss and everything else is "fixed" that part of the game isn't sandbox anymore.

wow. You just single handladly killed all arguments. This is great explanation of not everything should have one way to be dealt with. LOVE IT

[Cruvimaster]

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Making a game worse for fun? I won't ever see this as a good thing. We finally got a replacement for lureplant item deletion and in the same update its not able to delete all items.

A big selling point for DST is sandbox.

Sandbox game definition:  A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity. to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective.

If we have only one way to kill a boss and everything else is "fixed" that part of the game isn't sandbox anymore.

You are bringing a concept to justify that failures in development (exploit) are normal. Dude, this argument doesn't make sense.

Yes, there are several ways to combat AF ("sandbox"):
1. With or without weather pain; 2. with or without sanity (Willow?); 3. With or without Brightshade Staff; 4. With or without gunpowder; 5. You can use Maxwell (prison), Wolfgang (double damage), Wigfrid with your new weapon, etc.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Cruvimaster

[Faintly Macabre]

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Making a game worse for fun?

The negative impact of this change is so small as to be almost non-existent. Just feed it to a pig.

You do know about fruitcake's reputation, right? It's a joke...