[Game Update] - 599141

[Habakkuk]

Just now, landromat said:

Cheating/exploits is the same category when you report someone in online games

Exploits = Cheating

Cheats are normally associated with prohibited actions like, for example,  third party softwares. Exploits are in game mechanics that we use to advance in the game, those derive from knowledge of game mechanics. 
 

[landromat]

Just now, Habakkuk said:

Cheats are normally associated with prohibited actions like, for example,  third party softwares. Exploits are in game mechanics that we use to advance in the game, those derive from knowledge of game mechanics. 
 

Exploits are reportable in online games because you use game feature/mechanic unintended way to get competitive advantage. (not in case of DST of course)

Game exploits and exploit knowledge is just fancy way of cheating. May as well just use cheat mods or console

[Habakkuk]

2 minutes ago, landromat said:

Exploits are reportable in online games because you use game feature/mechanic unintended way to get competitive advantage. (not in case of DST of course)

Game exploits and exploit knowledge is just fancy way of cheating. May as well just use cheat mods or console

Online games where they are prohibited, normally competitive games.

Use a lureplant to block a boss moviment, for example,  can't even be considerate a exploit. You are using the tools the game gives you.  Is it a exploit to use Chess Pieces to block mobs and kill they will catapults? Of course no.  People who call lureplants blocking boss moviment an exploit call it a exploit because in their minds it should not be so easy to kill a boss. If Klei decides to give us 100000 of damage per hit and I kill all bosses with one hit am I cheating? Of course no. 

If you think the game would have more fun without those mechanics you have the right to think that way and defend this position, but call it a cheat is not fair. 

Be careful to don't fall in the " If you don't play like me you are wrong" trap. 

[The Starver]

Courtesy of Google Translate, I give you the REAL update:

Wagstaff's rubbish won't stop now. The Illuminated UI Crown is prohibited from connecting to the world or prisons. Be W.O.B.O.T from the screen. Nightmare / Scrappy Werepig no longer spawn in forest and hill at the same time. Some beta worlds persist until they are conquered. Creatures can now move between obstacles and blocks that can step on fake plants. Added creature chat system. It doesn't seem like there are multiple lines of speech in dialogue. The team used today is Berry, Wagstaff, Ancient Fuelweaver, Nightmare and Scrappy Werepig and Frostyaw. Now, the communicators try to repeat the same message in short time. Added a new option to the advanced options to unlock or increase the travel delay. The player enters fixed mode when opening a portable container in their inventory. When you use the product inside, open the container. However, it will close quickly when the player moves, does other things, or pauses. Bugs are fixed The Dragonfly Oven was created to destroy the Fruitcake for good. The heat here can't kill. Do not expose the furnace to the atmosphere if it is hit with a hammer or other tools. Fall for stealing things from creatures. Fixed crash with Frostjaw dialog. Scheduled flow refers to waste walls that are not closed off-site or on the road. Some in the world see this as having to ruffle feathers. Otherwise, they will not be harmed. Fixed Rift map property not disappearing after Rift is established. Picture of W.O.B.O.T. Sometimes, it wastes screen time and increases speed more than necessary. The hard versions do not show the best results when the server is down or when the player opens and closes the container. Edit the story Here is an article by Monday Ave on our channel. We have decided that it is not enough to publish this new material. So I look forward to what comes out in the future. The creator of Nightmare / Scrappy Werepig has told us what we have left, and now it's up to the veterans to show.

[Castiliano]

21 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

Online games where they are prohibited, normally competitive games.

Use a lureplant to block a boss moviment, for example,  can't even be considerate a exploit. You are using the tools the game gives you.  Is it a exploit to use Chess Pieces to block mobs and kill they will catapults? Of course no.  People who call lureplants blocking boss moviment an exploit call it a exploit because in their minds it should not be so easy to kill a boss. If Klei decides to give us 100000 of damage per hit and I kill all bosses with one hit am I cheating? Of course no. 

If you think the game would have more fun without those mechanics you have the right to think that way and defend this position, but call it a cheat is not fair. 

Be careful to don't fall in the " If you don't play like me you are wrong" trap. 

When a boss has several phases/mechanics and you manage to completely canceling it (as opposed to dealing with it), whether using bug/exploit or whatever you call it, I don't see a better word to describe it other than cheat.

p.s. I have also used it many times and still do, but I completely understand removing it

[Mike23Ua]

26 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

Online games where they are prohibited, normally competitive games.

Use a lureplant to block a boss moviment, for example,  can't even be considerate a exploit. You are using the tools the game gives you.  Is it a exploit to use Chess Pieces to block mobs and kill they will catapults? Of course no.  People who call lureplants blocking boss moviment an exploit call it a exploit because in their minds it should not be so easy to kill a boss. If Klei decides to give us 100000 of damage per hit and I kill all bosses with one hit am I cheating? Of course no. 

If you think the game would have more fun without those mechanics you have the right to think that way and defend this position, but call it a cheat is not fair. 

Be careful to don't fall in the " If you don't play like me you are wrong" trap. 

Somehow.. I don’t think if bosses could crush stone/Thelucite walls that you put up, that Klei EVER intended for a small crushable plant to be invincible to them.

And that’s all I have left to put into this discussion, I fully support the devs decision to make the plants destructible.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

was talking about stuff like voidwalking and cheesing FW, i personally sometimes cheese FW because i already did the fight the fun way in test worlds and i don't want to make a shadow manipulator in normal worlds, ig i should practice no nightmare amulet fight more to do it without wolfgang consistently with ping instead but still, i've had fun doing stuff after FW's death so i don't see why me doing that was bad and i doubt that i've hurt anyone considering that even on pubs there are pretty much no people trying to do FW early

2 things really one is that it's only an assumption noone has a issue with it and the second is a question if the justification for keeping exploits is they're not hurting anyone does that mean if a bug were to occur in which Abigial suddenly had infinite hp Klei should never fix it? Nor do other players not have the right to dislike it? I don't think the exploits should be removed until the bosses get reworked but I do think they should go away eventually.

[landromat]

37 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

Online games where they are prohibited, normally competitive games.

Use a lureplant to block a boss moviment, for example,  can't even be considerate a exploit. You are using the tools the game gives you.  Is it a exploit to use Chess Pieces to block mobs and kill they will catapults? Of course no.  People who call lureplants blocking boss moviment an exploit call it a exploit because in their minds it should not be so easy to kill a boss. If Klei decides to give us 100000 of damage per hit and I kill all bosses with one hit am I cheating? Of course no. 

If you think the game would have more fun without those mechanics you have the right to think that way and defend this position, but call it a cheat is not fair. 

Be careful to don't fall in the " If you don't play like me you are wrong" trap. 

What is cheating? It's playing game in unintended ways, or ignoring the rules. People are using bugs or some mechanics unintended way is cheating, because it's definitely not how game is created to play.

But, as you say there is nothing wrong with cheating in DST. Play like you want, nobody's to stop you from using console, mods or exploits

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

2 things really one is that it's only an assumption noone has a issue with it

i never had anyone tell me that i've ruined their fun that way nor ask to let them do ruins/daywalker/shadow pieces/FW

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

if a bug were to occur in which Abigial suddenly had infinite hp Klei should never fix it?

it'd be really annoying for people to count her hp and how many hits she took and when should she have regenerated all her hp back to summon her again if they want to play the way they previously did so no, meanwhile you don't need to do anything to not use lureplant cheese because you're unlikely to get to know that it exists without someone telling you that

[Mysterious box]

59 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

Cheats are normally associated with prohibited actions like, for example,  third party softwares. Exploits are in game mechanics that we use to advance in the game, those derive from knowledge of game mechanics. 
 

This isn't true people tend to be more lax on cheating in single player games but it's widely accepted that exploits are a form of cheating and it's been that way for years.

44 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

Online games where they are prohibited, normally competitive games.

Use a lureplant to block a boss moviment, for example,  can't even be considerate a exploit. You are using the tools the game gives you.  Is it a exploit to use Chess Pieces to block mobs and kill they will catapults? Of course no.  People who call lureplants blocking boss moviment an exploit call it a exploit because in their minds it should not be so easy to kill a boss. If Klei decides to give us 100000 of damage per hit and I kill all bosses with one hit am I cheating? Of course no. 

If you think the game would have more fun without those mechanics you have the right to think that way and defend this position, but call it a cheat is not fair. 

Be careful to don't fall in the " If you don't play like me you are wrong" trap. 

Lure plant and chess piece walls are the definition of exploits because the ai isn't able to acknowledge and adapt to them it's not a feeling it's a fact.

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it'd be really annoying for people to count her hp and how many hits she took and when should she have regenerated all her hp back to summon her again if they want to play the way they previously did so no,

I don't see how this would be annoying at which Wendy player would go darn it why won't she just die or count hits that's just silly. People would definitely have a problem with it but using the same words "it's not harming you" so why not?

 

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

never had anyone tell me that i've ruined their fun that way nor ask to let them do ruins/daywalker/shadow pieces/FW

If I'm being real I've never had anyone complain about most of the stuff discussed here outside the forums like too much rot, skill trees suck, brightshades are bad, and so on. But I have 100 percent had people complain about things like dfly cheese specifically heck I've even been on many servers where Webbers were treated poorly for not wanting to engage in spider war cheese. Some people speak up about problems some don't it's as simple as that.

[Habakkuk]

1 hour ago, landromat said:

What is cheating? It's playing game in unintended ways, or ignoring the rules. People are using bugs or some mechanics unintended way is cheating, because it's definitely not how game is created to play.

But, as you say there is nothing wrong with cheating in DST. Play like you want, nobody's to stop you from using console, mods or exploits

If they are prohibited, if they are not it is not a cheat. You can call exploit or cheese. 
DST is a sandbox, we can do things in a unintended way.

 

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

This isn't true people tend to be more lax on cheating in single player games but it's widely accepted that exploits are a form of cheating and it's been that way for years.

If it can lead you to be punished for use it I could call it a cheat.

Edit: I don't know, it maybe a cultural difference or language misunderstanding happening here. 
 

Edited March 21 by Habakkuk

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't see how this would be annoying at which Wendy player would go darn it why won't she just die or count hits that's just silly. People would definitely have a problem with it but using the same words "it's not harming you" so why not?

???

i've explained why it'd be a problem and why lureplants cheese isn't and you wrote something nonsensical, i'm not sure about what to write considering i've already answered that, it'd hard people that want to do the fights fairly because they'd need to calculate abigail's hp on their own and unsummon her on their own if she should've died by now but you don't need to do anything to avoid using lureplants cheese

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

If I'm being real I've never had anyone complain about most of the stuff discussed here outside the forums like too much rot, skill trees suck, brightshades are bad, and so on

because other players on the server can't change that but they can not cheese a boss or not do something that someone else wanted to do so it makes sense to say that if you want them to not do that but complaining about skill trees and brightshades on pubs is pointless 

[landromat]

16 minutes ago, Habakkuk said:

If they are prohibited, if they are not it is not a cheat. You can call exploit or cheese. 
DST is a sandbox, we can do things in a unintended way.

 

If it can lead you to be punished for use it I could call it a cheat.

Edit: I don't know, it maybe a cultural difference or language misunderstanding happening here. 
 

No, there is dont need to be a punishment to cheat in a game. You can play solitare by yourself and change some cards to win. There is noone to stop or punish you, but yet you cheated. 

You can have fun in dst in any way you like. There is nothing wrong with cheating, exploiting or cheesing stuff, but remember you arent playing game intended way

[Castiliano]

You can use the console, cheating this way and you won't be punished for it either

anyway, void walk and other bugs are not that different from using commands

[Well-met]

3 hours ago, Habakkuk said:

If Klei decides to give us 100000 of damage per hit and I kill all bosses with one hit am I cheating? Of course no. 

if klei did that everyone would quit the game because its the dumbest comparison i've ever heard.

objects having collision is expected for any physics engine, its not a "tool".

mobs being unable to react to blocks is a unfortunate limitation but id wager its alot less work to adjust the obstacles rather than rewriting the entire path finder algorythms.

Edited March 21 by Well-met

[GIGIbaGIGI]

Spoiler

 

This must be the community with the most sticks up their asses there is 
I can't believe ya all are getting mad because they are fixing their game jesus christ

[Habakkuk]

40 minutes ago, Well-met said:

if klei did that everyone would quit the game because its the dumbest comparison i've ever heard.

objects having collision is expected for any physics engine, its not a "tool".

mobs being unable to react to blocks is a unfortunate limitation but id wager its alot less work to adjust the obstacles rather than rewriting the entire path finder algorythms.

It is magic xD

[Mano Til]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 PM, V2C said:

Just to answer a few questions:

New features related to Lunar Hail will come in a future update, NOT part of this update (Scrappy Scavengers) beta or live release.

Upgrading Scaled Chests are still coming to this update.

We'll make crafting work with ingredients in containers opened from your inventory.

We are likely going to change the Lureplant fix to only affect the newer content.  We decided to fix this now because of how it affected the Scrappy Werepig before he could even reach the Junk Pile to pick up his first weapon.

Where is the scale chests update beta?

[00petar00]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

If I'm being real I've never had anyone complain about most of the stuff discussed here outside the forums like too much rot, skill trees suck, brightshades are bad, and so on. But I have 100 percent had people complain about things like dfly cheese

If it happens that often a lot more players prefer cheesing Dragonfly and while it is unfair to the players that are gathering resources to do the fight in the intended way, you decided to play on a pub and you should know that players will use walls at DF in like 99% of cases.

This can be solved easily by making bosses respawn faster, why do we have this arbitrary 20 day waiting period? I don't think that there is a good answer for this when it would be more fun for everyone If they all get a chance to fight and kill a boss within a reasonable timeframe like 5 days or less.

Edited March 21 by 00petar00

[nice rocks]

On 3/19/2024 at 8:02 PM, V2C said:

• Lureplants can now be trampled by creatures that can trample through obstacles and structures.

It would be nice if the boss ai could be updated to detect that its path finding is being blocked by lureplants when it's engaged in a fight with the player and prioritize attacking the lureplants to remove the block. In the case of the Scrappy Werepig if it is being dealt damage while it is trying to get back to the junk pile it could attack it could attack and kill the lure plants to get them out of the way. Mechanically the lureplants feel like a combination of both structures and creatures in that they can be placed like structures and are classified as hostile creatures in the world gen settings that can be attacked and killed for loot like other creatures. Normally when Bearger is charging or AF or the Forest Stalker are walking they would trample over and destroy structures but not deal damage to creatures or the player. The bosses would only deal damage if they attack. This would be an elegant solution that compromises on the unique mechanics of the lureplant and would allow for efficient farms like the moonstone farm to coexist with smarter bosses and more engaging fights.

[Yuuko]

Lets be real about something.

Cheating is not exploiting.

Using a cheat code or console command requires you have admin rights.

Cheat by definition is violating the rules of the game, in a video game the rules are maintained by the game therefore cheating in games (sans explicit cheat codes / mods / code manipulation etc) is *virtually impossible.

IF a game is competitive there *may* be additional rules set by the people running the game which can include things like banned characters, and even play behavior BUT this "cheating" is a layer of rules added by people, and thus enforced by people.  The game its self does not see these as cheating.

Fairness between players in a pvp game is unlike a pve game, and it is very hard to compare them so making arguments about what is / should be allowed in a pve game based on a pvp game's competitive rules is a bit nonsense.  It makes sense for Riot Games or Capcom to have a list of rules people must follow to participate in a tournament, but these rules only apply to their tournaments.  If you're playing at home what is cheating is defined only by the game.

 

Are lureplants cheating?  No.  Definitively, de facto, in no way is using a lure plant "cheating."  It doesn't matter the level of effect it has on the mob, the lureplant is doing what it is coded to do.   There is no bug, there is no code manipulation, no admin access altering the game state.  Saying it is cheating is just flatly, absolutely wrong.

 

Is it exploitation?  Absolutely.  But it is doing nothing which is against its code, and unaligned with the nature of the game.

Most game play is exploiting the game though.  That is what the meta layer of gaming is all about.  It doesn't matter the significant of the exploits effect on the game, it is still not a cheat.

 

*Bug exploitation is a gray area that some can term as cheating, but a lureplant exploit is not bug manipulation.  It is not an accident or fluke in the code that the lureplant interacts as it does.  Note this change was not listed as a bug fix, there is no debate about this  The lureplant interactions are a feature according to the code of the game.

Edited March 21 by Yuuko

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If it happens that often a lot more players prefer cheesing Dragonfly and while it is unfair to the players that are gathering resources to do the fight in the intended way, you decided to play on a pub and you should know that players will use walls at DF in like 99% of cases.

To me personally that speaks more to the fight needing another look I agree most players use the wall method but what we should be doing is solving the reason they feel the need to rely on it no? Let's make the fights more fun rather than just going well if you don't like it just abuse the ai because at that point I don't see why we don't just cut out the middle man and make a optional(not just on pc) insta kill button for bosses.

33 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

This can be solved easily by making bosses respawn faster, why do we have this arbitrary 20 day waiting period? I don't think that there is a good answer for this when it would be more fun for everyone If they all get a chance to fight and kill a boss within a reasonable timeframe like 5 days or less.

Honestly this would be a great idea for a post rift item or a Wanda skill tree clock.

 

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

i've explained why it'd be a problem and why lureplants cheese isn't and you wrote something nonsensical, i'm not sure about what to write considering i've already answered that, it'd hard people that want to do the fights fairly because they'd need to calculate abigail's hp on their own and unsummon her on their own if she should've died by now but you don't need to do anything to avoid using lureplants cheese

I don't get what you didn't understand my point is who would abigial having infinite hp harm noone but there are many people who wouldn't like it just like they wouldn't like it if hp, sanity, and hunger were infinite via exploits. The main point is these sorts of things bother people even if it isn't specifically harmful many people just don't like bugs or exploits that doesn't make them spiteful nor do they hate fun wether you accept that or not is up to you.

[00petar00]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To me personally that speaks more to the fight needing another look I agree most players use the wall method but what we should be doing is solving the reason they feel the need to rely on it no? Let's make the fights more fun rather than just going well if you don't like it just abuse the ai because at that point I don't see why we don't just cut out the middle man and make a optional(not just on pc) insta kill button for bosses.

Its not that dragonfly fight isn't fun, it is but for groups. I think I would find it fun with more people and not calming her down or building walls.

Also I want the option to be able to cheese or exploit, I don't think a button like that would ever make it in the game. 

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly this would be a great idea for a post rift item or a Wanda skill tree clock.

That defeats the purpose, why do we need to keep the 20 day respawn timer? Would the game become worse or better if bosses respawned in 5 days? 

 

[Mysterious box]

17 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Using a cheat code or console command requires you have admin rights.

Cheat by definition is violating the rules of the game, in a video game the rules are maintained by the game therefore cheating in games (sans explicit cheat codes / mods / code manipulation etc) is *virtually impossible.

Honestly it's up to interpretation as it's definition is to act unfairly or dishonestly which can very much be paired with exploits and if we're speaking from a culture standpoint exploits have been listed as cheats for decades.

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Its not that dragonfly fight isn't fun, it is but for groups. I think I would find it fun with more people and not calming her down or building walls.

Also I want the option to be able to cheese or exploit, I don't think a button like that would ever make it in the game. 

 But it's usually groups who cheese the fight not individuals heck I've never seen a group actually engage with dfly's boss fight normally.

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

That defeats the purpose, why do we need to keep the 20 day respawn timer? Would the game become worse or better if bosses respawned in 5 days? 

I would imagine for the same reason resources are finite it's just less interesting that way.

[Yuuko]

28 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To me personally that speaks more to the fight needing another look I agree most players use the wall method but what we should be doing is solving the reason they feel the need to rely on it no? Let's make the fights more fun rather than just going well if you don't like it just abuse the ai because at that point I don't see why we don't just cut out the middle man and make a optional(not just on pc) insta kill button for bosses.

The walls are fine.  If people want to use them, let them.  It is a viable way to manage lavea, just like using an ice staff.  This is literally walls doing what walls are supposed to do.  Might as well complain someone uses high %def armor to tank through damage instead of dodging, or uses a beefalo for its advantages.

The fight doesn't need any work.  It is perfectly manageable without walls for those who want to do it that way too.

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly it's up to interpretation as it's definition is to act unfairly or dishonestly which can very much be paired with exploits and if we're speaking from a culture standpoint exploits have been listed as cheats for decades.

Cultural standpoint?  Please go on, what is this "cultural standpoint" ??  Just you and some friend's culture where you decide to make up your own things and hold the world to them?  Or do you actually have some basis for this argument?

Edited March 22 by Yuuko