[Game Update] - 599141

[Frosty_Mentos]

5 hours ago, V2C said:

Lureplants can now be trampled by creatures that can trample through obstacles and structures.

 

It was fun while it lasted with Fuelweaver.

[Auth]

19 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

Perfection. This is what I want to see. Exploits given proper looks and new, valid, intended means of taking them down introduced.

Some say cheese removal, but I like to look at what was done to Ancient Guardian. Simple changes using the idea of the initial exploit to build off of and make something new.
This is what we should be doing. Removing abusive behaviors and balancing them to make players still able to engage, but in new, possibly even more rewarding ways.

This goes to show that if you have any kind of suggestions for changes with FW, you should be suggesting them now. I am already ludicrously excited.

As someone who regularly struggles with Fuelweaver's fight and mechanics specifically, this would be AMAZING to see new strategies open up that don't feel like I'm cheating.
...Do you think Crab King could get some looking at too, when you get around to it?

EDIT:

I'd like to clarify. I love how difficult Fuelweaver is. He is truly one of the best examples of game design the game has and possibly ever will have.
However, now that he's effectively become a Wall-Of-Flesh boss that gatekeeps a huge (and growing) chunk of content, adding new methods to deal with him would be greatly appreciated. I know I certainly would, I have Aspergers so I really can't handle such demanding multitasking very well. It's just something I am not able to do.

I really wish that the fight does not get any easier. But that new items or strategies could be introduced instead. The best example I can give is the brightshade staff. It's a multi-hit projectile that distinctly targets different enemies. This item can be used during FW's fight and is a magnificent new addition that can be taken or left depending on a player's preference. This is what I want to see more of: More valid options, not an easier fight.

Edited March 21, 2024 by Auth
Clarification

[SapoLover]

Woah, it doesn't affect me, but it makes my eye tilt to see you taking a step back ON A FIX because some people want to afk or hold F for easy kills and infinite moon rock. Well, on the good side, I guess it's nice you're updating some bosses because of that. One good thing about the cheese lovers.

Edited March 20, 2024 by SapoLover

[Cassielu]

41 minutes ago, V2C said:

we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver

That scares me a lot more than all these cheese stuff. Fuelweaver was created eight years ago, is designers today still grasp its design intent? It's a perfect classics DS-style strategy-oriented puzzle boss, don't tarnish it with from beyond style nothing but movement combat design.

boss requiring the player to use different items is not the problem that needs to be solved, controller can't do it quickly is.

[Masked Koopa]

1 hour ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

In a similar vein I think it would be really cool if ya'll could get around to fixing mob pathfinding with static objects, it's pretty annoying having them get stuck in random positions around my base. Maybe add an invisible wall of some sort so people can still trick mob pathfinding on purpose.

Still I'm really happy to hear that sort of thing is on the table, these types of updates do absolute wonder for long term worlds.

[zhangsheng]

1 hour ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them

When you have time, please make sure to redo the Toadsool and Misery Toadsool. This boss is difficult and not as interesting as Ancient Fuelweaver. Every time I hit it, it's a torture that I have to use lureplant.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Auth said:

Perfection. This is what I want to see. Exploits given proper looks and new, valid, intended means of taking them down introduced.

Some say cheese removal, but I like to look at what was done to Ancient Guardian. Simple changes using the idea of the initial exploit to build off of and make something new.
This is what we should be doing. Removing abusive behaviors and balancing them to make players still able to engage, but in new, possibly even more rewarding ways.

This goes to show that if you have any kind of suggestions for changes with FW, you should be suggesting them now. I am already ludicrously excited.

As someone who regularly struggles with Fuelweaver's fight and mechanics specifically, this would be AMAZING to see new strategies open up that don't feel like I'm cheating.
...Do you think Crab King could get some looking at too, when you get around to it?

I agree.. but some things should be fair game, such as for example: Using a horde of Bunnymen, a horde of Merms or in this case 19,000 bees.

I hope Klei does not remove the bee strategy from CrabKing, this is not an exploit, your not blocking off a bosses ability to walk with a tiny easy to obtain plant.. you still very much have to catch a ton of bees with nets & craft bee mines, and dodge his attacks.

Theres a difference.

Gunpowder should’ve been a “valid” strategy too, but some bosses were given gunpowder resistance.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Mike23Ua

[Szczuku]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

I'm sorry but what is the plan then?

The entire point of the Lureplant/spider eggs cheese is to make AF not function. How are you going to remove these exploits but keep the players who use them happy? Add walls that you can craft pre-fuelweaver that completely remove any and all effort from the fight?

AFAIK there is no probelm with the AF bossfight aside from some players going "It requires too much effort from me, I shouldn't be forced  to bring more items to the boss than a weapon and armor". That cheese literally is only used by people who don't want to participate in that fight but still want rewards

Edited March 20, 2024 by Szczuku

[Frosty_Mentos]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

So, does that mean we'll be getting new tools to deal with these kinds of bosses or there's gonna be some bigger changes for older bosses to be different to what they are? If it's a mystery for now I guess it's fine to not tell, but if you got info on what your plans are with the changes it'd be appreciated to let us know.

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, V2C said:

Changes

• Lureplants can now be trampled by creatures that can trample through obstacles and structures.
•  

 

Boo.  Quit being a hater and let ppl have fun.

[lowercase skye]

35 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The entire point of the Lureplant/spider eggs cheese is to make AF not function. How are you going to remove these exploits but keep the players who use them happy?

Personally, the reason I use the lureplant cheese against Fuelweaver is because I find the fight frustrating and not any fun, which is something I cannot say for 98% of the content in this videogame. If the fight was reworked to have design more akin to modern DST boss fights, then I would likely find it fun, and have no reason to cheese it. It's the same as the Ancient Guardian, they reworked him to be fun and now I gladly do the fight because I find it fun!

[Frosty_Mentos]

To be fair, it's either the lureplants I'll use or gunpowder to blow up fuelweaver. We have alternatives still even if they are a little riskier.

[Yuuko]

19 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them.

Try this - DON'T.

A critical, vital, essential element of sandbox games - games that you don't want to end, games that you want to be re-playable infinitely - is player expression and variance.

It doesn't matter that the lureplant was not "intended" to block certain mob pathing, of course Klei didn't sit down in a meeting and say "we're making this thing that will block bosses."  What matters is that DST is a sand box game about emergent game play, puzzle solving, and creativity MORE than it is about boss fights.  When someone wants to fight AFW they will, and they often do because the fight is fun.  You don't need to break every cheese someone finds and FORCE ppl to fight it "legit."

This whole arc is plagued with these highly scripted QTE style fights where every single play through is pretty much identical because you just can not approach it a different way.  It makes the "end game loop" an extremely monotonous experience b/c once I've beaten these bosses once or twice I'm just DONE with them.  With AFW I can go back and re-fight it different ways.  I can do it with nm amulets and weather pains, or skip the weather pains and kite him around, or carefully balance sanity loss and gains with hivehat vs sanity recovery foods, or yes stick him with a lure plant and hold F until he's dead.  Because these are all options I can re-play the fight multiple times and enjoy it each time without quitting DST and playing something different.  When it comes to zombie bearger I'm just done after one fight.  I don't need to see that butt slam again, its done, its over with, I'm done.  My worlds used to last about 300-500 days before I'd reset.  Now I get to about 200 and I'm just burned out of BS plants, zombie boss fights, lunar hail, and acid rain.  I'm just DONE.  And rather than starting a new world I'm switching to a different game.  Its really not the direction I want DST to go.

(PS: Also a better fix is probably to just prevent things from being planted in the scrap zone eh?)

Edited March 21, 2024 by Yuuko

[landromat]

12 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

is player expression and variance.

intended variance? sure, but not exploits lol. destroy them

[arubaro]

A component of a sand box is being able to use gun powder, spamm a billion of bunnies or any other item, structure or whatever to fight the boss in your own way, being afk because the AI breaks isnt part of a sandbox 

Controller should be changed before drastic changes but i don't see why a company would like to keep these AI bugs just because there is a bunch of lazy players that dont want to make the effort of learning how to beat their content with any of their multiple tools that make it easier 

Imagine looking for a gameplay of this game to decide if buying it and witness a player afk during so much time that the video is speed up.. 

Edited March 20, 2024 by arubaro

[Szczuku]

29 minutes ago, finn from human said:

If the fight was reworked to have design more akin to modern DST boss fights

That would single-handedly ruin the Fuelweaver fight.

Look at what @Cassielu said on the previuos page: the current dst boss design philosophy is having the boss go "Oohh, aahh I'm eepy" every three attakcs and giving players like 10 seconds to freely smack them. I'd much rather the Fuelweaver fight stayed as a high-octane, intense bossfight where players are punished for their mistakes and the boss is not afraid to use all of his special attacks at once

The AF fight is supposed to be hard it's the closest thing dst has to a final boss; sure, he ain't one- as the rift updates continue I'm sure we'll only get more and more raid bosses after him but AF is still one of the most hype and important fights in the game.

Requiring players to prepare different equipment for a boss is the one thing that New Reign did right with its bosses. Dst has so many items with so little practical use - you don't use telepoofing to move around map, at best maybe in the atrium. Same thing with weather pain. Outside of AF and Toadstool where do you use this item? To chop trees? As if you don't have a bearger parked somewhere for that. These items get to shine thanks to AF, his fight requiring a more thorough preperation is not a problem, if anything its an asset - it makes the player feel like they are about to take on a great challenge (and will therefore feel even better about themselves when they win)

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, landromat said:

intended variance? sure, but not exploits lol. destroy them

Nah, both are good.

Like it or not, exploits are literally part of the game and most of the time its good that they exist.  Exploits typically extend the shelf life of a game because the number of players who will enjoy a game, and the number of times they will play it are directly related to how many different ways it can be played.  Just look at the classic Mario 1.  People play it warp-less, hit-less, and also super-speedy using every clip and glitch they can even utilizing TAS to extremely optimize the "perfect play."  The fact that these options all exist is why the game is still played to this day.  If there were no warps and the glitches were all patched the game would have died ages ago.

The only thing you should really watch for is stability issues, and PLAYER intent.  If its something that causes the game to crash, or is easily *accidentally* done, then it is a problem.  If its something that doesn't crash the game and rarely happens without a player purposefully making it happen then there is little reason to change it.  Old AG is a good example of this - the pillars were too convenient.  Just backing away from the boss and getting caught in the gap would lead to the exploit (in fact it would trap the player, so there was no option except to use the exploit.)  Because nothing the player did really caused it, its less player expression / variance and more a failing of the game.  Compare this to Dfly.  Walls don't naturally spawn around Dfly.  If a player built the walls there then they wanted them there, there is little reason to do anything about how walls interact with the dfly fight.  The interaction is the reward of player creativity and resourcefulness. 

This isn't to say "never fix a game."  Just that being a pedant and policing play styles is bad.  So what if someone takes the game you made, with your own intended interactions, and finds a different way to play - the fact that they are playing the game is success.  Unless the lureplant exploit is driving players away from the game, I don't see any reason to change it.  From what I can tell PLENTY of people are still manually fighting AFW.  I mostly see only legit fights happening in streams, and in yt I only see things like the lureplant exploit when I specifically search for it.  I think its pretty obvious this is NOT negatively effecting the game in any way - despite what some spiteful players (and perhaps devs) may think.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Yuuko

[cropo]

42 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The AF fight is supposed to be hard it's the closest thing dst has to a final boss; sure, he ain't one- as the rift updates continue I'm sure we'll only get more and more raid bosses after him but AF is still one of the most hype and important fights in the game.

The hardest part about him is that you're often fighting more with your inventory and dated targeting controls than the Fuelweaver itself. He would be much easier if the inventory didn't have this Runescape PvP level of inventory manipulation. There's a reason he's 10x harder on console.

 

I also like the idea of Lureplants not affecting post-rift mobs, but staying consistent across pre-rift mobs. We've already accepted that ''Post rifts'' is a very different thing, so trying to argue for consistency with lureplanting seems to be specific. It's pretty messed up to want to take away a naturally found unintended mechanic with lureplants just to spite players who ''don't deserve to have beaten fuelweaver'' when player-consent has already been implied by them intentionally using it.

Edited March 20, 2024 by cropo

[grm9]

4 hours ago, V2C said:

Hey guys, seems to be some confusion, but to clarify, we do intend to fix these bugs and exploits eventually.  For the older bosses, they were not a focus of this update.  When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights such as Fuelweaver before we unexpectedly remove some players' means of progressing past them

please don't change FW, atm it's the most fun and complex fight in the game imo, with lureplant, spider den, weather pains, brightshade staff etc. strats if you want to trivialize it and dodging bone cage and luring it away from the ancient gateway for being able to kill it earlier with less preparation at the cost of making the fight harder but more fun and many character specific fun strats e.g. bramble husk or abigail or lunar fire for woven shadows, soul hopping out of the arena to prevent mind control, lightning spear for getting out of bone cage etc.

Edited March 20, 2024 by grm9

[cropo]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

lunar fire for woven shadows

Do they drop embers? If so I completely take back everything I said about the fight. I didn't even think to use that.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, cropo said:

Do they drop embers? If so I completely take back everything I said about the fight. I didn't even think to use that.

iirc they don't since you can't ignite them, but you can kill most of them using it and cd is short enough to use it every time he summons 

[landromat]

1 minute ago, Yuuko said:

Like it or not, exploits are literally part of the game and most of the time its good that they exist

Like it or not, they're removing them so they're not part of the game anymore 

And no, exploits are bad lol why there is even discussion about that

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, landromat said:

exploits are bad

why?

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, landromat said:

Like it or not, they're removing them so they're not part of the game anymore 

And no, exploits are bad lol why there is even discussion about that

The devs are welcome to ruin their game if they want.  The more my plays, and streams of DST look like the same footage on loop the less I'm inclined to bother with it.  Its as simple as that.

This is why "difficulty" is such an important thing to understand.  If difficulty really equates to less viable options then it also equates to the game losing value to players.  If there is only 1 way to play a game then it will only be played once and only by the few players who like that specific way of playing.

[cropo]

7 minutes ago, landromat said:

And no, exploits are bad lol why there is even discussion about that

Not necessarily? Like, I get in a competitive environment they are bad but DST is not a competitive game. 

You can make your own server, and stipulate to anyone playing that exploits are not allowed and ban them if you see them using it, if you use public servers then I don't think you have any right to police the way they play. Lureplanting is such a specific exploit that requires player intent to utilize.

 

Many games evolved the way they have today because of exploits. Comboing in Street Fighter was originally not an intended mechanic, but it made the game far better because of it and arguably made it into what it is today. To just write off all exploits as something to immediately destroy regardless of context, or the effects of said "exploit" is incredibly close-minded.