[Game Update] - 599141

[cropo]

22 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

The only game in this that’s “pvp oriented” is GTA V. Ark and minecraft having pvp as an option does not make it pvp oriented. And i have never seen anyone play 7 days to die pvp without it being the entire focus of that server.

The ability to walk around and kill anyone you want is a significant part of why people play most of those games, allowing exploits that let another human player insta-kill you, or gather end-game resources to raid your base in a few minutes would cause actual damage to the games.

 

A player planting a bunch of lureplants and sitting at fuelweaver for 30 minutes does not damage ANYONE's experience, there is no comparison between fixing exploits in games with competitive incentives and a harmless bug that a player has to purposefully perform and willingly consent to spending 30 minutes sitting there to do. 

 

If this bug stays:

No one is affected, allegedly Klei looks like a fool in the eyes of players looking up DST videos. Like, the first video they're going to see is a lureplant farm video, and immediately go ''Wow this game sucks, it's so unpolished" and never delve into the game or look into it any further. But being real here, no one is affected.

 

If this bug is patched:

You guys aren't affected, players who enjoyed using it are. All for some ideal of this noblese oblige developers seem to be bound to, thinly veiled ideals that players should be punished for getting a ''cheap victory" which you can practically smell from the majority of ''pro-fix'' posts, and what else? What is gained? Nothing. 

It's a net-negative to remove a harmless glitch that a player has to willingly consent to do, and enforce a certain playstyle on them. Opening up the console is NOT the same as making your own personal goldberg-machine to simulate an automated process. I could just type in a cheat code in Minecraft to get 3billion EXP, the process of making a mob-kill farm is more engaging than that and removing it would make the game far more obnoxious.

This isn't fixing a glitch with Honey Production, it's not fixing longstanding glitches that are still in the game and hinder the experience, this is a specifically targeted update to fix a problem that did not affect anyone unless they wanted it to affect them, and made the game more fun for them. This fix is not in the spirit of fixing flaws and polishing the game, it is SPECIFICALLY to deny a choice on the players part, telling them that it's not okay. I have a problem with that, this is a hollow and lifeless bugfix purely targeted at a specific group of people for no good reason. The reason people are assuming malice on "pro fix" people are because the only logical explanation for such an aggressive stance on such a harmless bug is the desire to finger-wag others into playing a certain way. All this talk about polish and other nonsense just doesn't really feel genuine, we know why you guys want it fixed.

Edited March 20, 2024 by cropo

[grm9]

15 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Why are you acting like an exploit being patched is a personal attack on you? It's just a glitch

because they'll be unable to enjoy the game the way they previously did because of that

[Skyscale]

13 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

if there's a will there's a way.

Next target locked.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

because they'll be unable to enjoy the game the way they previously did because of that

This is a Farcry, lmao like I legit don’t mean to be rude.. but I legitimately stopped playing as some of my favorite characters in DST before they got their Reworks, Because I did not want to get used to and fall and love with the way they played NOW only for Klei to change that later..

And now, we’re doing that all over again with skill trees *sarcastic yay* 

I legit worried the “Nerf her to the Ground!” Crowd would win during Wickerbottoms rework and she would be less enjoyable for me.

you over here talking about a small lureplant glitch, meanwhile I’m watching the entire game change before my eyes.

Stun-lock No eyed deer & Mactusk? Yeah no we can’t do that anymore..

So from my point of view- Your lureplant glitch is just as much “game” as any other change Klei has ever made.

[cropo]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

but I legitimately stopped playing as some of my favorite characters in DST before they got their Reworks, Because I did not want to get used to and fall and love with the way they played NOW only for Klei to change that later..

A fair criticism shared by many people.

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And now, we’re doing that all over again with skill trees *sarcastic yay* 

Skill trees are optional and only add onto the character, I don't think any of them remove something from a character, unless we're talking their negative quirks.

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

you over here talking about a small lureplant glitch, meanwhile I’m watching the entire game change before my eyes.

Something a lot of players(not a majority, I think) are also disappointed in.

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So from my point of view- Your lureplant glitch is just as much “game” as any other change Klei has ever made.

Fair enough, but that doesn't exclude the ability to argue in favor of it's preservation in that case. 

[Catuna_]

7 minutes ago, Skyscale said:

Next target locked.

Chances are they're keeping this, and reverting the lureplant change for older content until they get to revamping/improving older content.

[_zwb]

4 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

It is at least shameful for a developer to openly accept that there are serious flaws in the programming

Funnily enough it's impossible to write any code without bugs, you have to admit that your code is bugged, and honestly it's nothing to be ashamed about, recognising the issue is the first step of fixing it.

[O Prea]

It would be interesting to use Embalming Spritz on the marble trees we planted, so we could leave them at an desirable stage.

[Cruvimaster]

5 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Funnily enough it's impossible to write any code without bugs, you have to admit that your code is bugged, and honestly it's nothing to be ashamed about, recognising the issue is the first step of fixing it.

Yes, you're right. But I wasn't referring to the fact of having errors in development, but rather knowing about their existence and not taking measures to repair them. That's what I meant. 
 

[_zwb]

2 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

Yes, you're right. But I wasn't referring to the fact of having errors in development, but rather knowing about their existence and not taking measures to repair them. That's what I meant. 
 

But they are taking measures right now? Maybe not for the fuel weaver fight but V2C said they will fix those boss fights later?

[Cruvimaster]

6 minutes ago, _zwb said:

But they are taking measures right now? Maybe not for the fuel weaver fight but V2C said they will fix those boss fights later?

Yes, and I already said this in a previous comment here.

[00petar00]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As a writer myself, that’s like telling me this part of my story sucks and would be better if I changed it. Opinions are fine to have- but in the end.. it’s my story to tell, I’m gonna tell it the way I want it told.

Same Rules apply to video games, you’ll play the way the developers want you to and you’re gonna like it. (Or stop playing) 

How can you believe that and spend this much time on the forums? Makes no sense to me.

If I didn't think that my feedback would be of any use, I wouldn't talk about any game features and betas at all and would only be on the forums for casual discussions.

Why do you have to compare games so often? I can understand and have done it in the past from time to time but for you its literally every second post.

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

If you think bugs and console commands are the same then you have lost nothing, simply use c_godmode() and hold f to win. If that doesn’t feel satisfying, then set up the things you used to use, spawn the boss and kill it with console commands. Its the same effect.

How do so many people bring this up? using console and exploits or cheesing bosses is completely different and you can't really use this as an argument.

If that is an acceptable argument I can say that you can use settings to make the game more difficult if you find it too easy currently.

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

This is either a lie or vastly misunderstanding the situation. Many people see exploits as perfectly valid ways to play. In other words they see it as not cheating. Its cheating. But who cares if someone wants to use console commands to beat the boss? My problem is that the reason many people defend it is because they see it as a valid and unique way of killing the boss, as if its not the boss walking at an indestructible wall for 30 minutes while being chipped away until it dies. Real dynamic gameplay there.

It is a completely valid way to play and it can be considered cheating but I don't think it is. I don't really want to defend this point so I won't be going deeper into this.

I don't care if someone wants to use console commands but I won't do it.

It is a fun and unique way to kill a boss and the reason I like it is because I kill FW 3 times a year to get more houndius shootius, resources required to fight a boss aren't fun to gather and maybe you don't want to keep killing a boss in your "intended" way for the 100th time.

You bring up that you don't care If someone uses console commands to beat a boss but it is an issue when there is an exploit/cheese method?

EDIT: To add this isn't just about FW but moon rock farming and Toadstool too.

Edited March 20, 2024 by 00petar00

[Frosty_Mentos]

Aight. My belief that whatever Klei intends is usually what should be a thing for survival-sandbox experience. Creative side can always be enabled via console and mod settings if you wanna just get those items and don't care about to put effort/tryhard the game to make things you wanna make.

There's no wrong way to play this game. Exploits and cheeses are viable while they exist, if Klei removes them they do state the reasons as to why and I appreciate that greatly, but it also means there should or will be a different new solution to dealing with those menaces and problems by either - via boss/item reworks or adding a new intended way to deal with it those threats.

They changed moon storm costs and they really made a simple thing like crowns finally more farmable to make comfortable lights in the world to be set up more often with less dumb amount of time waste that doesn't require as much effort.

If Klei changes something we gotta adapt to it and put our either concerns or criticism as to why that was bad and what solution should be different as it'll help them at creating the content to supplement to what we have lost in more intuitive ways.

Also this update is not yet the end of the world, so don't get gaslit by the lovers of this change cause game devs as said are working on a solution rn. Wait just a bit and we'll get back in business as usual or better/interesting way eventually.

I don't like fighting Fuelweaver solo for 200 times and I just wanna chill seeing him melt from houndiuses or other methods cause he simply is useless drop wise for me and only drop he gives that has value are the ruins reset overall.

[Copyafriend]

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You bring up that you don't care If someone uses console commands to beat a boss but it is an issue when there is an exploit/cheese method?

Absolutely there isnt an issue at all. I seem to have been rather unclear. I do not care if it exists and is being abused. But functionally speaking cheesing a boss is no different than just using a console command to reset the ruins. You’re free to do so. 
 

but call a fish a fish, its cheating. You’re cheating because you’re tired of beating it the “right” way. Its not engaging to beat the boss that way, thats just a lie. Its convenient because you need to kill him many times and it gets old. A very reasonable reason to not want it patched. A very reasonable reason to cheese it.

 

But if klei wants to patch a bug, accept the L. No one has some right to a bug or exploit or cheese just because its convenient or easy or even enjoyable.

 

it doesn’t bother me one way or another if its kept or taken away, what bothers me is that people defend it as if its an engaging gameplay feature when its a bug that results in a boss acting uncharacteristically stupid and walking mindlessly into a wall while it dies. 
 

its a bug, bugs should be removed. If they want to enable a similar behavior they should remove the bug and institute a purposeful version that doesn’t look like the only sentient enemy we know of is mindless walking into a wall while he dies despite his full capabilities of just destroying the lure plants.

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

Funnily enough it's impossible to write any code without bugs, you have to admit that your code is bugged, and honestly it's nothing to be ashamed about, recognising the issue is the first step of fixing it.

Also this is not true. Lots of code has “no bugs” but that code is typically very short and simple. This behavior from bosses isn’t actually a bug either, thats just a generalization. Its a design oversight, not a bug.
 

Everything is working exactly how its supposed to work, its just resulting in unintended behaviors. It’s just called a bug because most people either dont know the difference or don’t care, either way the end result is more or less the same.

[00petar00]

9 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

But if klei wants to patch a bug, accept the L. No one has some right to a bug or exploit or cheese just because its convenient or easy or even enjoyable.

So again, you bring up a good point it is more enjoyable to cheese a boss If you need to farm him. 

If a change makes the game less fun for you, wouldn't you want to speak about it?

Isn't this part of the forums for feedback regarding beta? I don't understand why you and Mike are telling me that I should just accept it and not voice my concerns regarding a change.

9 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

it doesn’t bother me one way or another if its kept or taken away, what bothers me is that people defend it as if its an engaging gameplay feature when its a bug that results in a boss acting uncharacteristically stupid and walking mindlessly into a wall while it dies. 

It is your choice if you want to use it or not, you don't ever have to see that on your world.

Removing options is almost never a good thing even when they are exploits, look at the post rift bosses and how linear they are, similar mechanics and you are very limited in how you can approach that fight. The only reason this change happened is because werepig could be blocked which should also stay in the game.

 

Edited March 20, 2024 by 00petar00

[Copyafriend]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If a change makes the game less fun for you, wouldn't you want to speak about it?

This is a good point.

i shouldnt just try to silence you on the matter.

however i still hold my belief that if its a “bug” it should just be fixed, and its not really something that should be allowed to stay, usefulness or not. I believe in patching all bugs, but if a useful or interesting mechanic develops, then come back and hard code it in instead of letting it persist as a bug.

 

HOWEVER: there is a very reasonable compromise here that i should have emphasized more instead of ranting about bugs.

 

simply allow for alternatives for resetting the ruins. Then there is no need to “farm” this boss. I could think of a few alternatives but the how is less important than the why.

 

I’m particularly against this particular boss being farmable because of its story relevance and overall menace (and apparent intelligence) It just feels wrong to me for this particular boss to be so easily cheesed. 

[R4yni]

16 hours ago, V2C said:

The Enlightened Crown UI now stays closed after joining a world or going to the caves.

This is so good!

 

16 hours ago, V2C said:

The Player will now enter a stationary state when opening a portable container in their inventory.  The container will stay open when using items from inside of it.  However, it will automatically close if the Player moves, performs other actions, or is interrupted

This make me sad and frustrating, not about the animation or to enter in a stationary state, but I agree with:
 

15 hours ago, Thalz said:

What about allowing us to craft using the Spectackler box with twiggs (or rot)? If possible would be nice allow us to keep crafting stuff using it because its an underrated item that could see more use. And personally I found it very useful during building and now the box closes when I try to craft something using the twiggs inside.

And about Polar Bearger Bin, look at this situation: my crown is down and I need a sanity food inside it, I can't get anything in darkness. No make sense for me, its a lunar end game item.

[The Starver]

13 hours ago, Dreadstone said:

Are the digestive enzymes of pigs extraordinarily special?

Yes

[Copyafriend]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As a writer myself, that’s like telling me this part of my story sucks and would be better if I changed it. Opinions are fine to have- but in the end.. it’s my story to tell, I’m gonna tell it the way I want it told.

Sometimes your story sucks and you should change parts of it though.

i mean no disrespect about your story ofc i dont know it. I was more saying that criticisms are valid and to say this is a little silly. Sometimes changes are better even if you particularly like that part.

[Keigo]

16 hours ago, V2C said:

Changes

• The Nightmare/Scrappy Werepig will no longer spawn in both the Forest and Cave at the same time. Some beta worlds may still have both active until they are defeated.

 

 Does anyone know how this will work?

[Szczuku]

7 hours ago, cropo said:

I also like the idea of Lureplants not affecting post-rift mobs, but staying consistent across pre-rift mobs. We've already accepted that ''Post rifts'' is a very different thing, so trying to argue for consistency with lureplanting seems to be specific. It's pretty messed up to want to take away a naturally found unintended mechanic with lureplants just to spite players who ''don't deserve to have beaten fuelweaver'' when player-consent has already been implied by them intentionally using it.

What are you even talking about? Scrappy Werepig is a pre-rift boss afaik. And even if it wasn't, what's the logic here, where do we draw the line on which giant, magical creature can trample plants and which one can't. Klei is literally treating the Lureplant cheese as an unintended mechanic that needs to be fixed for Scrappy Werepig but for Fuelweaver it is treated as a strategy. What? Why? Just because the fuelweaver version of the same bug is older and that somehow justifies its existance???

8 hours ago, Yuuko said:

A critical, vital, essential element of sandbox games - games that you don't want to end, games that you want to be re-playable infinitely - is player expression and variance.

6 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Like the previous Bee Queen boat patch this just removes options from players.

A big part of sandbox games are choices and we are not getting any from the new boss fights while the bosses before rift are getting "fixed".

Choices matter so much for replayability of a game.

4 hours ago, NoodlemanNed said:

can you efficiency nuts just let people play how they like? Not everyone is a robot who enjoys fighting a boss the same way dozens of times, people need variety. You might hate how people choose to fight a boss but at least what they do has no effect on you. Nobody is going to ever use lureplant cheese by accident, its something you only see if players want to use it.

Variety this, variety that. Y'all are acting like there are only two ways to kill a boss: legitimate and the no-brainer cheese. There's lots of variety in dst but it seems to me like you just don't want to put in the effort.

Let's use Bee Queen as an example. When Klei fixed the boat bug there were some forumites who were crying that their exploit got taken away.

This is the same thing that is happening right now with Fuelweaver.

You are all acting like you are now forced to fight him legitimately. But there's still planty of variety and even exploits. Klei took away the Bee Queen Boat exploit but you can still cheese her with Bunnymen. The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat.

Same thing with AF. You can still have a varied experience: farm up for a stack of gunpowder and nuke the boss when he enters the healing phase. Put down a shootius and have it assist you in a fight, not do it for you on a crippled boss. Wear the moonshroom funcap and use the spores to pop the woven shadows. Hell, even explot him: switch to Winona, farm rocks and build catapults in the atrium.

And besides...

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief; or that you start a brand new world with each character just so that you can kill AF with lureplant cheese instead of the normal way. Y'all are defending the lureplant cheese because it allows you to effortlessly take the difficult boss down.

5 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Scrappy werepig being stuck on lureplant would be a good thing

...dude you can't be serious.

And here's the ending note:

To anyone using the "It doesn't affect you, just don't use the exploit if you don't like it" argument; how about Klei adds godmode toggle to dst? When you spawn in a new world there's just going to be a toggle that gives you godmode() and freecrafting(). I mean, people won't be forced to use it, it's just there for those who might want a different experience. Surely this would be healthy for the game, the more variety the better

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Szczuku said:

how about Klei adds godmode toggle to dst? When you spawn in a new world there's just going to be a toggle that gives you godmode() and freecrafting()

since when is there a visible toggle or tip on the screen about using lureplants to block stuff?

3 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The entire variety talk is just a facade, right? Like, you can't tell me that killing AF for the 34th time by going afk for 5 minutes is making your gameplay exciting beyond belief; or that you start a brand new world with each character just so that you can kill AF with lureplant cheese instead of the normal way. Y'all are defending the lureplant cheese because it allows you to effortlessly take the difficult boss down

i can kill FW without weather pains but i still use cheese because i don't want to do the preparation, megabasers could also not want to do it normally every time

5 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

there were some forumites who were crying

learn to talk constructively

6 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

What are you even talking about? Scrappy Werepig is a pre-rift boss afaik. And even if it wasn't, what's the logic here, where do we draw the line on which giant, magical creature can trample plants and which one can't. Klei is literally treating the Lureplant cheese as an unintended mechanic that needs to be fixed for Scrappy Werepig but for Fuelweaver it is treated as a strategy. What? Why? Just because the fuelweaver version of the same bug is older and that somehow justifies its existance???

no, because there are already many ways to kill FW but only 1 way to kill CC, werepig, werepig 2, AG, EoT, frostjaw etc.

[Guille6785]

4 hours ago, kroban said:

the legit fight also requires lots of farming and using multiple different items that can easily make the inventory a whole mess in the middle of the fight etc etc.

this is hardly more items than what you need for any other fight

Edited March 20, 2024 by Guille6785

[grm9]

11 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The only difference is that the Bunnymen strategy actually requires player effort and the easy bossfight is an earned reward for farming up the 480 logs, 120 bunny puffts and 300 carrots, whereas the boat exploit only required you to craft a boat

boat cheese still required you to deal with the minions so it was hardly cheese and you still need to wait for spring to use lureplant for FW cheese and why do you want other people to be unable to do something because you think that it's too easy or cheap to do even though them doing that doesn't affect you since no one forces you or puts a button onto your screen that makes you cheese a boss?

Edited March 20, 2024 by grm9

[Szczuku]

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

there are already many ways to kill FW but only 1 way to kill CC, werepig, werepig 2, AG, EoT, frostjaw etc.

Like I said, you only consider braindead cheese as an alternative to fight with armor and weapons. Literally any difference you make to your equipment for a bossfight, outside for switching darkswords for a hambat and football helmets for the thulecite crown, is an alternative bossfight. Use darts, wear bodyarmor and the enlightment crown, put down a shootius. Mix and match these tree things and you get 6 different takes on a bossfight

There are ways to take these bosses down in a varied way. You can prepare 3 stacks of gunpowder for CC, drop them on the ground in different palces and explode each phase- by the time it switches to a new phase its gunpowder resistance would probably end.

FIght EoT with a bunch of Pigmen or bunnymen.

Bring Rock lobsters to the Daywalker fight

There is variety in the game's bossfights; you just want ways that are cheap, easy and require no effort from you. Own up to it