Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed?

[grm9]

Why do a lot of people want bugs (e.g. voidwalking) and strats (e.g. anim cancelling, dfly walls, specific character abilities etc.) if they don't need to use them and interact with them? No one forces you to voidwalk and you can't accidentally do that, similarly to anim cancelling, using walls for dfly etc., why do you want the devs to force you to play in a specific way even though you can do that on your own?

DST isn't a competitive game either, almost everyone who bring up speedrunning never speedrun nor watch actual speedruns, and most of those who do know that there's very little competition in most categories, and even if there would've been strats that were too good and simple, categories without them could've been created, similarly to FW restricted.

If you're making a competition on your own, then it's even easier to prevent people from using bugs and strats that you don't want people to use, since you can use mods to make them impossible to perform.

Wanting something like inconsistent attack speed, lag etc. fixed is understandable, those don't add much to the game and you can't avoid interacting with them.

People also might say that they don't like that others use bugs and strats that they refuse to use on public servers etc. but why? How does that affect you? If you think that it's unfair that they do that while you can't because of your own ruleset, then why do you think you're in some sort of competition to start with and why should they play by your rules?

Meanwhile removing bugs and strats only removes some ways in which you can play the game, possibly reducing the amount of time you'll enjoy the game for without adding anything else, removing a bug or a strat won't make you enjoy the game more or play it for longer, since you could've ignored it's existence from the start.

People also say that patching strats that are simple and ineffective pushes people that used them into using more interesting strats, but why can't they use those strats on their own? Even if a strat would've been more fun and less efficient, you can still use it, no one forces you to play as efficiently as possible.

Edited February 22 by grm9

[_zwb]

1. Development time for those things I wouldn't use could've been used on something else. This isn't really relating to bug fixes but to adding content like skill trees.

2. The game's design as a whole is affected. It's like saying meat in the soup have no effects on the vegetables, so vegetarians should be able to enjoy the soup. Obviously not the case, these bugs and exploits are affecting other parts of the game.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, _zwb said:

1. Development time for those things I wouldn't use could've been used on something else. This isn't really relating to bug fixes but to adding content like skill trees

i'm talking about removing things that already exist, not adding new stuff

6 minutes ago, _zwb said:

2. The game's design as a whole is affected. It's like saying meat in the soup have no effects on the vegetables, so vegetarians should be able to enjoy the soup. Obviously not the case, these bugs and exploits are affecting other parts of the game

no one forces you to use them and it's easy to not use them, unlike awkwardly trying to eat everything except the meat in case of example you brought up, you can't accidentally voidwalk 

Edited February 22 by grm9

[Tranoze]

Void walking in spectacular is fixed in ocean update, or, in other word, is what void walking will look like when dev fix it.
How does it look? Player now will drown instead of walking in ocean, losing max hp in progress.

Now after fixing it, it cause more problem for players who didnt use void walking, as players will now drown if they fail to jump to boat, jump to boat but some thing block them...

To make a perfect bug patch for stuff like void walking, yeah that will take time to firgue out, cuz patching that bug might make new bugs/inconvinicence appear somewhere else.
 

- make player die/get penalty when they try to void walk -> Random player die/get penalty when fighting bosses because boss push player out of void.
- make void check function every frame -> Cause server lag.

 

[Cheggf]

Even ignoring the fact that it does affect you if you play on public servers because people can use them to get things way before you realistically could then hoard them away, it's to improve the game for the people who use said exploits. I refuse to fight dfly with walls because it's so boring, and whenever people fight her with me on public servers and we don't use walls it's always their first time doing it and they always remark on how much more fun the fight is. They've just never tried it without walls, because they've only ever been taught the easiest way to do it and never tried experimenting.

To say "Why change it? You can just not do it." is disingenuous, and can apply to literally everything. Why not make it so that being at 0 hunger and 0 temperature doesn't do anything, and you just pretend like you need to manage your hunger and temperature? Why not make it so that being at 0 health doesn't kill you, and you can just walk over to a touch stone and pretend like you needed to revive? Why not make it so that everything dies in a single hit to a weapon and takes no damage from nonweapons so if you want to actually fight things you just keep punching them until you feel like they deserve to die then you hit them with a weapon once? Would that be fun, inventing game mechanics and pretending like they exist?

Games need to do their part to force the player to engage with them, sandbox or not. People will optimize the fun out of games if you give them the opportunity. This is a sandbox game so there should be a lot more room for allowing alternate methods of doing things, but things that require no thinking, no effort, no preparation, no fun, and just skip over everything entirely are not one of them.

Edited February 22 by Cheggf

[Tranoze]

4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I refuse to fight dfly with walls because it's so boring

I believe wall dfly is a perfect implement feature fight of real life and not an exploit at all. Just because the fight is boring doesnt mean it is exploit.

Lavae cant destroy stone wall, that a known fact.
So if you wall lavae pond with wall, that effect is legit and you can have dfly fight without any lavae present.

Path finding exploit? Do you think lavae have google map and 1000 IQ path finding with them? There are nothing wrong with low intelligent creature have low ability in path finding.

[grm9]

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Even ignoring the fact that it does affect you if you play on public servers because people can use them to get things way before you realistically could then hoard them away

What glitch does that, out of curiosity? I guess things like disabling FW's AI by killing him from void, but even that isn't a big difference because you can kill him using only weapons, armor, sanity stuff and healing, so it's only a matter of getting those and the player being good enough.

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

it's to improve the game for the people who use said exploits

already answered

11 hours ago, grm9 said:

People also say that patching strats that are simple and ineffective pushes people that used them into using more interesting strats, but why can't they use those strats on their own? Even if a strat would've been more fun and less efficient, you can still use it, no one forces you to play as efficiently as possible

that's mostly their problem, there's no need to remove things from the game just to force people into having fun since they can have fun on their own

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Why not make it so that being at 0 hunger and 0 temperature doesn't do anything, and you just pretend like you need to manage your hunger and temperature?

because you can tank those using healing in some cases and it'd be annoying to calculate on your own how much health you would've lost by now

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Why not make it so that being at 0 health doesn't kill you, and you can just walk over to a touch stone and pretend like you needed to revive?

because ghosts walk slower and it'd be annoying to simulate that by stopping exactly often enough to simulate ghost speed so you can accurately know when would've the world got reset since you'd also need to reset the world after exactly 2 minutes on your own

the difference is that your examples require the player to do more annoying unfun stuff like calculating a lot of stuff that the game would've normally calculated on it's own and do stuff very precisely just to simulate how it would've been, voidwalking and not using voidwalking doesn't require that

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

but things that require no thinking, no effort, no preparation, no fun, and just skip over everything entirely are not one of them

dfly walls require preparation and thinking, voidwalking still requires you to know where atrium usually generates, it's usually more fun than getting to atrium normally because you spend less time doing unfun stuff, even maxwell stuff is still somewhat interesting in case of BQ and other fights that require you to do more stuff than spam shadow prison and duelists

Edited February 22 by grm9

[Cheggf]

15 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

I believe wall dfly is a perfect implement feature fight of real life and not an exploit at all. Just because the fight is boring doesnt mean it is exploit.

Lavae cant destroy stone wall, that a known fact.
So if you wall lavae pond with wall, that effect is legit and you can have dfly fight without any lavae present.

Path finding exploit? Do you think lavae have google map and 1000 IQ path finding with them? There are nothing wrong with low intelligent creature have low ability in path finding.

You're right, the lavae should be able to swim through the pond. Agreed.

[Tranoze]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

You're right, the lavae should be able to swim through the pond. Agreed.

ye, that, i agree some what. But im not sure if lavae can survive swiming, as far as i know, lavae is spits from dragon fly, and when they jump to the pond when dfly dies, they never be seen again.

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

no one forces you to use them and it's easy to not use them, unlike awkwardly trying to eat everything except the meat in case of example you brought up, you can't accidentally voidwalk 

I'm talking about design side of things, these exploits would need to be taken into account whenbalancing the game, if they're not patched that is. I guess this doesn't matter either, DST designers clearly don't care about balancing.

[Cruvimaster]

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

Why do a lot of people want..

 

For me, the majority are the 42 thousand people and not the very few people who are commenting here.

And developers know that many things said here do not represent the reality of people within the game.

[Cheggf]

5 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

 

For me, the majority are the 42 thousand people and not the very few people who are commenting here.

And developers know that many things said here do not represent the reality of people within the game.

This game is almost free and gives you real life money if you have it open so the playercount reported by Steam is extremely inflated. It's also a pretty pointless things to bring up, tons of people on the forums here defend the game (often blindly) so it's not like the forums are only used by people who are coming here to complain or ask for changes. The forums are a pretty good representation of the playerbase, with a lot of varied opinions. 

[Cruvimaster]

I'm going to do an analysis only of dfly walls comparing it to 42,899 players.

Of this total, it is quite possible that 42,800 use walls against Dragonfly.

What would be the logic for a company that needs to keep its customers to remove this feature because of 10 people complaining on the Forum?

If Klei ever changes Dragonfly's mechanics, it will certainly be with this huge base of players who use the wall mechanics in mind.

This reasoning applies to so many other things in the game.

And we still have to note that Klei made some mechanics legitimate.

The arguments in favor of walls became stronger because of the Maxwell rework or the use of bees against the Crab King because of the Wickerbotton rework. And even the cancellation of animation, since its existence is the express wish of the developers.

[cropo]

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

I'm talking about design side of things, these exploits would need to be taken into account whenbalancing the game, if they're not patched that is. I guess this doesn't matter either, DST designers clearly don't care about balancing.

So lets compromise, let harmless and voluntary bugs stay on the condition that if new content needs it to be fixed to make way for it then that would be an understandable reason to fix them.

 

Like fixing fire farms from single-player due to the new way fire had to work. Sucks that they fixed a glitch, but understandable as to why.

[SapoLover]

I don't use them and don't mind them staying. It doesn't make much sense to me to ask for something that won't have impact in my style, but neither does asking for them to stay. It's unintended and makes the game seem unpolished. Instead of arguing with people that want them removed because you have grown used to use them, why not suggest changes in how things work? It worked fine for Ancient Guardian. Everyone likes to engage with mechanics instead of avoiding them.

Edited February 22 by SapoLover

[ADM]

I think it's normal to picture an ideal out of something, for a game I would much prefer it to be a certain way than it holding on its flaws. I know they're here and they leave a stain, and to each of us their owns but regrouped we often see the same ones being brought up.

[Szczuku]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

...it's to improve the game for the people who use said exploits...

...dfly...

I agree.

I know that this is the very definition of a strawman but -

Imagine if the devs did rework Dragonfly for her chinese new year event, however it turns out that not only the wall exploit still works on her, it actaully bypasses some of the new mechanics/attacks that the devs have implemented. That would be bad, of course, the devs time and effort wasted cuz they didn't fix the exploit

I'm sure that there's some actual in-game example like this one

Edited February 22 by Szczuku

[grm9]

27 minutes ago, SapoLover said:

Instead of arguing with people that want them removed because you have grown used to use them, why not suggest changes in how things work?

because not removing something requires less time than adding something and there's no reason for bugs and strats not to stay in case devs' solution ends up being worse than bugs and strats that were used as solutions previously

3 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Imagine if the devs did rework Dragonfly for her chinese new year event, however it turns out that not only the wall exploit still works on her, it actaully bypasses some of the new mechanics/attacks that the devs have implemented

do you mean that this would be bad or that this would be good?

2 hours ago, _zwb said:

I'm talking about design side of things, these exploits would need to be taken into account whenbalancing the game, if they're not patched that is. I guess this doesn't matter either, DST designers clearly don't care about balancing

they can be ignored when balancing stuff, shadow rifts content wasn't balanced around killing fuelweaver by getting him stuck nearby the ancient gateway room entrance

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

The forums are a pretty good representation of the playerbase, with a lot of varied opinions

there seem to be much more people that have played the game for a lot of time and hate it on the forums

[BezKa]

Developers make updates with all previous content in mind, meaning everything in the game has an impact, even if I don't use it.

[Guille6785]

5 hours ago, _zwb said:

The game's design as a whole is affected. It's like saying meat in the soup have no effects on the vegetables, so vegetarians should be able to enjoy the soup. Obviously not the case, these bugs and exploits are affecting other parts of the game.

This is a horrible analogy because the vegan in this scenario would have to make a conscious effort to avoid the meat, which would result in a horrible experience for them. This is absolutely not the case with things like voidwalking or cheese strategies, nobody can accidentally voidwalk or cheese a boss, these are things that almost nobody becomes aware of until they're told about them via someone else or they see them in a youtube video

[Well-met]

dst is the only game i know where the playerbase relies on exploits to enjoy the game

maybe it's time to find another title if this is your case

[landromat]

That's multiplayer game. Not everyone wants people to cheese or exploit on their servers

[chirsg]

Looking at this entire thread makes me see how truly political the forums are. Things to win people over to their side are false equivalence analogies and hypothetical situations where in my 5500 hours of play, I have never seen.

The point of OP's post hasn't actually been challenged in a fair way and has been met with mythological nonsense. 

[grm9]

35 minutes ago, Well-met said:

dst is the only game i know where the playerbase relies on exploits to enjoy the game

maybe it's time to find another title if this is your case

So you're telling me to stop playing the game because you don't like how i play it? Is there even a need to say how little sense and coherence there is in this message? Wouldn't it make sense for people to use glitches to enjoy the game more if they allow skipping boring stuff or are more fun to perform than intended stuff? Why does something being a glitch matter in this case?

34 minutes ago, landromat said:

That's multiplayer game. Not everyone wants people to cheese or exploit on their servers

6 hours ago, grm9 said:

If you're making a competition on your own, then it's even easier to prevent people from using bugs and strats that you don't want people to use, since you can use mods to make them impossible to perform

most dedicated server owners probably don't care as long as they don't make people play less on their servers and if you're talking about hosting on your own, then you can disable anything or ask people not to do anything on your own, instead of getting it disabled for all players just because you want it to be disabled on your server, that's selfish

Edited February 22 by grm9

[landromat]

21 minutes ago, grm9 said:

probably don't care

or some probably do