Jakepeng99 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 23 minutes ago, Castiliano said: Repeat this three times out loud I mean to be fair you cut out the rest of their comment which justifies this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiliano Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said: I mean to be fair you cut out the rest of their comment which justifies this. I don't see how it justifies asking for keeping bugs Anyway, anyone can abuse them, but it's good to be aware that they can be removed at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 28 minutes ago, Castiliano said: Repeat this three times out loud maybe respond to the entire message instead of a part of it without it's context 6 minutes ago, _zwb said: it just serves as a solution and that's positive and it doesn't add anything negative 7 minutes ago, _zwb said: What I think should be true is now true, what else do I need? why do you care about it being true? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakepeng99 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 10 minutes ago, Castiliano said: I don't see how it justifies asking for keeping bugs Anyway, anyone can abuse them, but it's good to be aware that they can be removed at any time. Ignoring the rest is still bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 5 hours ago, _zwb said: To quote J.P.Sartre, "I am thus responsible for myself and for all men, and I am creating a certain image of man as I would have him to be. In fashioning myself I fashion man." This quote would be great if we were talking about suffering and oppression, but in this situation its more like saying people need Jesus and you're Right and Just for pressing for conversion and seeking laws which reinforce your religious beliefs. Bugs are a part of every game - and they always will be. Map clipping is a very common bug in ALL games, and that is all void walking is - map clipping. Its unlikely to be fixed easily, so I'd suggest getting comfy and cozy. The reality is bugs get put on a priority list and worked through based on that. Top priority bugs are ones that cause instability in the game like crashes, attacks failing to register, items vanishing, etc. After that it depends on the dev team. If a bug doesn't create instability it can be handled when there aren't any higher priorities, but as new content is added and the list lengthens you realize getting through the list is unlikely while a game is in continued development. Not that the work doesn't get done, but there are going to be bugs at the bottom of the list. Players using bugs is not a problem. The game is what it is, and players are playing it. If I want to do x task as fast as possible either for speed run challenge, farm drops or whatever, I'm free to do that as I wish including any bug exploitation. Now if I come on here and I say "Hey I defeated AFW with <insert bug exploit>" you're free to be unimpressed but remember other people with different opinions may be interested. 3 hours ago, Castiliano said: It could not be simpler. It's a bug. A bug tends to get fixed, and it's completely normal for people to want things fixed, especially in one of their favorite games. Okay, next question. Note: I also use exploits, but if they are fixed, I will be totally ok with this, after all I use them with the knowledge that they can be fixed at any time. We also have to hope that what leads us to use the exploit is also improved. This is the reality of it. Fixing a bug is never a problem - because at its heart a bug is code that is not working correctly. You can't properly document or maintain code that isn't doing what its supposed to be doing. But as I said there is a long list of bugs and their priorities vary. IF you want to use a bug, go for it. Especially in your own world, but really even in pubs. Go nuts! IF Klei fixes a bug, okay. It may suck that a thing was removed, but it was a bug. Find a different way to do the thing. ------------------------------------------------------- As I said before Devs need to look at bug exploitation as feedback. If people are routinely skipping a portion of the content, that content is likely not engaging, too repetitive, or something that is causing people to use an exploit. Its possible a player might just enjoy using exploits, but largely when people find out about Void Walking to AFW, or getting Bee Queen stuck on moles, or w/e its because they are googling along the lines of "This is too x how can I do it without as much problem?" I mean we are all here to play the game. Before AG was re-worked it had an easily abusable bug that allowed a player to simply hold F and defeat it 100%. While this bug existed there were many players who didn't abuse this bug, and went through all of the fight motions voluntarily - why? Because the fight was fun. IF finding the way to the Atrium was fun people wouldn't void walk for it. But its not fun. Its a total dice roll. The pillars spawn randomly, and a random one of those takes you to the Atrium. Its a horrible slog, and nothing of value is lost by players skipping this at the cost of a door or wall. 6 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said: Everyone loves these bosses but hates bee queen, toad, nobody cares about dragonfly and crabking is still an oddity all together. Eh, no. I much prefer Dfly and Bqueen over the zombosses. imo they feel like they are in the wrong game. Its fine that they are here, but I really hope Klei gets off this "dodge and stun" mechanic. Its getting really repetitive now... These bosses aren't more difficult, and there are a lot less options for you to play with. I play DST because it is an open world game that encourages player creativity, not for some highly scripted QTE boss fights. Edited February 23 by Yuuko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, grm9 said: why do you care about it being true? Because... I think it should be true? That's pretty obvious no? This feels like trolling now... 1 hour ago, Yuuko said: Players using bugs is not a problem. Yes but sometimes they can show a problem with the game. For example, skipping the tentapillar journey with void walking, a big reason people do that is because doing it "legitimately" is boring and takes too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 10 minutes ago, _zwb said: Because... I think it should be true? That's pretty obvious no? This feels like trolling now... how does it matter for you considering it doesn't affect you? Do you get something from others being unable to voidwalk? Edited February 23 by grm9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 23 minutes ago, grm9 said: how does it matter for you considering it doesn't affect you? Do you get something from others being unable to voidwalk? If you just want the reassurance that people who are against these bugs are only against it because they don't want others to use it, then yes, I'm policing you, happy now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, _zwb said: happy now? no, i want people to stop ruining others' fun for no reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 13 minutes ago, grm9 said: no, i want people to stop ruining others' fun for no reason No one is doing that. Only Klei can ruin your fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 3 minutes ago, _zwb said: No one is doing that. Only Klei can ruin your fun some people are asking them to do that for no reason, which might make them do that Edited February 23 by grm9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, _zwb said: Yes but sometimes they can show a problem with the game. For example, skipping the tentapillar journey with void walking, a big reason people do that is because doing it "legitimately" is boring and takes too long. That's essentially what I said. Devs should look at bug exploitation AS feedback. The problem isn't void walking, or bugs - its a section of the game that players would rather skip if they could. Which sucks considering games are recreational things, we should WANT to play them. Why is this tentapillar section entirely RNG based? Simple put - lots of things with Klei and DST were unrefined when they were first made, and that is okay. Updates to the game which rework existing content are so great because they take some flawed, underused aspect of the game and return something enjoyable. RWYS is, for me, one of the best updates Klei has ever done for the game, better than any boss, gear, or character because it traded out a flawed system for something genuinely better. The refreshes, skill trees, planar, etc NONE of that accomplishes this. I'd take a RWYS style overhaul of boating, cooking, base defense, and seasons over a million more zombie bosses that make me wear planar gear, dodge, and get a 5 second stun. ppl cheesing Bee Queen to bypass the fight? Maybe look at how you can add interaction to the fight that allows players to interact with it more so they don't feel the need to bypass it. Give players something more engaging than tentapillars and they'll stop void walking. Spoiler On an aside: Piracy is the same issue. Back in the 00's piracy was all over the news. Game companies, movie studios, and musicians were all up in arms about the evils of Napster and torrents. Piracy fell off HEAVILY over time. What dropped piracy? NOT the "yOu WoUlDnT dOwNlOaD aCaR" ads. It was itunes allowing people to buy a single digital copy of a song they liked to carry on their digital player device, streaming movies online straight to your tv, downloading games on release day without leaving your house, cloud saves - THESE ended most piracy. b/c most piracy was users needing something that was not being provided. They didn't want to buy CDs, or BluRays, or game discs. They wanted mp3s and digital copies. They wanted to use what they knew technology could do, but companies wouldn't give them. Most people have no problem paying for what they want. Most gamers have no problems jumping through the game's challenges to unlock rewards. But it has to be engaging, and skillful, and in theme of the game, not artificial difficulty, rng, and grind. Edited February 23 by Yuuko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-met Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 finding the atrium is intended to take a while via the rng tentacles. Its not the games fault if you have the attention span of a child. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Well-met said: finding the atrium is intended to take a while via the rng tentacles. Its not the games fault if you have the attention span of a child you're either trying to create a conflict or express hatred towards some people that are having fun through a different way in comparison to you for no reason, attention span is unrelated to not wanting to do things that aren't fun and if it would've been intended to take a while, then it failed because you can find atrium after killing the 1st tentacle you found Edited February 23 by grm9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Well-met said: finding the atrium is intended to take a while via the rng tentacles. Its not the games fault if you have the attention span of a child. Are you equally against people using telepoof staff to get there? Edited February 23 by Yuuko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 13 hours ago, grm9 said: so how does that negatively affect you, considering the way others play doesn't affect you and you can simply not voidwalk if you think that doing that will make you enjoy the game less? Your main argument is this: Others can void walk, but it doesn't affect your gameplay because you can choose not to. This is not true as other commenters under the thread have mentioned. For example, people can speed hoard ruins materials and make the ruin content unavailable for everyone else, all because one person decided it's fun for him/her to exploit a bug. Furthermore, in private servers, bugs like this make those who frequently abuse the bugs develop certain distorted understanding and habits towards the general game balance. During game play, they keep it to themselves. But on the internet, they sometimes insist that their distorted views are the legit view and they genuinely try to defend their distorted views. In some cases, when there are an overwhelming demand from fan to make such bug an official feature, it can become an official feature, if it actually improves the general experience of the game. But in other cases, when the majority of the community thinks such bugs are harmful one way or another, it will remain a bug or be patched. But the point is, even if everyone only plays in their private servers and doesn't interfere with each other, you do voice your ideas on the internet and conflict other players' non-bug-abusive interests, as is happening under this thread. This is a negative effect in a broader but more profound sense, as it may change the game or change the perception of the game. Change the game, how? - the bug gets patched, negatively affecting those who love abusing the bug - the bug becomes official feature, making critics think the game is unbalanced - the bug is left untouched, making fans think the game contains long standing bugs and negatively impacting fans' perceptions Beyond furthermore. It's true that DST is not a competitive game. But it's still a multiplayer online game. Bugs like this can hurt people's perception or feelings towards the game. Edited February 23 by goatt 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 17 minutes ago, goatt said: Your main argument is this: Others can void walk, but it doesn't affect your gameplay because you can choose not to. This is not true as other commenters under the thread have mentioned. For example, people can speed hoard ruins materials and make the ruin content unavailable for everyone else, all because one person decided it's fun for him/her to exploit a bug. A skilled player without using any exploits will virtually always be able to do this faster than the vast majority of the playerbase using exploits (and in fact, in this specific scenario voidwalking to the ruins is literally slower than not doing so, this is why nobody does it in speedruns) Edited February 23 by Guille6785 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, Well-met said: finding the atrium is intended to take a while via the rng tentacles. Its not the games fault if you have the attention span of a child. It took me 20 minutes to find the correct tentapillar. That's 20 minutes of walking and ignoring everything else, just boring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: A skilled player without using any exploits will virtually always be able to do this faster than the vast majority of the playerbase using exploits (and in fact, in this specific scenario voidwalking to the ruins is literally slower than not doing so, this is why nobody does it in speedruns) That's mostly true. And that means my example is a bit edgy. But the purpose of my example is not to show this is a common problem, but to show that there is negative effects in the context of the argument. So my argument still stands in the context of the original discussion. But you are also right. Edited February 23 by goatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 14 hours ago, grm9 said: 15 hours ago, Evelo said: If this is your response to that then there is no chance of convincing you of anything that supports why people want things changed. It appears you are asking "Why?" without accepting the answers given. it would make most sense to remove things that are making people enjoy the game less and for less time and voidwalking doesn't do that Oh hey I was right. Didn't accept the answer that was given. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semind Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 On 2/22/2024 at 6:02 AM, grm9 said: you can't accidentally voidwalk I want to point out at the top that if I had to say, I lean more to your side of the argument. But I literally signed up to this forum so I can point out that I did in fact accidentally void walk while exploring the atrium, I got pushed through the edge of the floor by a rising obelisk. I'm not even really presenting a counter-argument, I just think it was funny that I did in fact discover accidental void walking when by most accounts you have to do it on purpose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 18 hours ago, goatt said: This is not true as other commenters under the thread have mentioned. For example, people can speed hoard ruins materials and make the ruin content unavailable for everyone else, all because one person decided it's fun for him/her to exploit a bug how does the way through which they did that matter for you, especially considering that there are no glitches that allow you to skip a lot of progression and save a ton of time to the point of allowing anyone to always do things that others wanted to do faster with minimal knowledge and skill? And would've many things changed without bugs anyway, considering you can pretty easily ruin others' fun by going to ruins and hammering full station or even all stations to not let them craft ruins stuff and killing AG and taking all of it's loot and hiding the key somewhere? If pvp isn't enabled on the server, they'd be able to do that right in front of you even without bugs and you wouldn't be able to stop them without kicking them 18 hours ago, goatt said: Furthermore, in private servers, bugs like this make those who frequently abuse the bugs develop certain distorted understanding and habits towards the general game balance it's fine for them to talk about using bugs, it's not any worse than someone who plays with reduced damage taken and extra equip slots talking on the forums 18 hours ago, goatt said: - the bug is left untouched, making fans think the game contains long standing bugs and negatively impacting fans' perceptions or they might try to understand that there's nothing wrong with leaving it in the game 18 hours ago, goatt said: - the bug becomes official feature, making critics think the game is unbalanced depends on the bug, and you can hardly find a coherent definition of what's balance and why is it needed on the forums anyway 18 hours ago, goatt said: Bugs like this can hurt people's perception or feelings towards the game that only applies to people that are only considering playing the game and i doubt that everyone are telling to newbies that this game is janky and not worth playing because there's a bug that you need to setup that helps in like 2 scenarios both of which most newbies won't end up in anytime soon after starting to play the game and therefore the rest of the game is obviously bad 17 hours ago, Evelo said: Oh hey I was right. Didn't accept the answer that was given what does accepting mean in this case? What was i supposed to do other than explain why i disagreed with it? Edited February 24 by grm9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 minutes ago, grm9 said: how does it matter for you in which way they did that, especially considering that there are no glitches that allow you to skip a lot of progression and save a ton of time to the point of allowing anyone to always do things that others wanted to do faster with minimal knowledge and skill? And would've many things changed without bugs anyway, considering you can pretty easily ruin others' fun by going to ruins and hammering full station or even all stations to not let them craft ruins stuff and killing AG and taking all of it's loot and hiding the key somewhere? If pvp isn't enabled on the server, they'd be able to do that right in front of you even without bugs and you wouldn't be able to stop them without kicking them it's fine for them to talk about using bugs, it's not any worse than someone who plays with reduced damage taken and extra equip slots talking on the forums or they might try to understand that there's nothing wrong with leaving it in the game depends on the bug, and you can hardly find a coherent definition of what's balance and why is it needed on the forums anyway that only applies to people that are only considering playing the game and i doubt that everyone are telling to newbies that this game is janky and not worth playing because there's a bug that you need to setup that helps in like 2 scenarios both of which most newbies won't end up in anytime soon after starting to play the game and therefore the rest of the game is obviously bad i've explained why i disagreed with it, what's wrong with that? 1. You shouldn't bring extra slot mod to the discussion, it's completely unrelated because it's not a bug. 2. Are we still talking about negative effects? I showed you the negative effects, and you say "it's fine". That's kinda lame argument. 3. Players' perception is their subjective opinions. They don't need clear definition of "balance", "bug", "features", etc. They are just opinions. However, subjective opinions do influence game experience. And other commenters' opinions will influcence readers' perceptions too. Talking about "definition" is missing the point. The main point here, which you haven't addressed, is this: You try to make this bug a feature. But you don't seem to have enough people on your side. Most people still see it as a bug. I understand how you might feel among the disagreeing voices. But you can't explain your subjective opinions as if they are objective truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 50 minutes ago, grm9 said: what does accepting mean in this case? What was i supposed to do other than explain why i disagreed with it? When people ask "Why does so and so do this thing?" And an answer is given typically the response is "Oh, okay." since the knowledge has been gained. It is not an argumentative question. It is a question based on gaining understanding. For example, Ashton asks, "Why does Sam avoid highways? It is much faster to get to work." Sam can respond, "I am terrified of driving on the highway. I prefer to take in town roads even if it takes longer." Ashton asked a question and got the answer. Sure Ashton may disagree but the understanding of why Sam does the specific action (avoid highways) has been explained. Tying this into our example the question, "Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed?" The answer, in response to specifically voidwalking, "Because it is not the intended design of the void" is sufficient enough of an answer. There is no need to refute as a question has been asked and an answer given. You can dislike with the answer but that does not mean the answer is wrong. The only acceptable outcome is to acknowledge the answer as the answer for that specific individual (or group of individuals) is correct in their perception of the world. If you are attempting to convince people of your viewpoint it is best to structure the initial question differently to procure appropriate discussion rather than a one sided question. This is why in general it is better to avoid "why" question because they can be answered simply without any follow up. (Unless of course the follow up is to further gain knowledge, example: Why do you walk up the stairs so slow? Because I got a knee replacement. Why did you get a knee replacement? Because my knee was heavily damaged after years of wear and tear and needed to be fixed." Lastly, the stated question is of an individual's opinion. Opinions can never be right or wrong, they are simply ones own perception. Opinions different, you may disagree with that, that is perfectly fine. But unless you are trying to convince people (as stated in the previous paragraph) then "Why" questions are not the way to go about it. Edited February 23 by Evelo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaghatai Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 On 2/22/2024 at 12:13 PM, Jakepeng99 said: They should remove void walking and add a dangerous shadow ocean we can sail on. I think void walking is very artificial, and extra glitchy so I would have no problem with them removing it - if they did, I would like to see the ruins equivalent of docks added so that certain gaps could be crossed without glitching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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