goatt Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 46 minutes ago, grm9 said: why Your question is "why" is void walking kiting a negative effect. I think it's obvious. Because you can easily avoid most of boss attacks, if you are not skilled enough to avoid all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seero Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 damn people want klei to fix animation cancelling? it's an exploit that plays out as a very high-level skill. I'm a huge fan of it, i'm getting better and better at it every day It would suck if they fixed it. And I would download the first mod that re-adds it back in a heartbeat. Allows bosses to be killed quicker, which means less resources needed, less time preparing + fighting more time to focus on other parts of this survival game 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassielu Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 hours ago, grm9 said: it's primarily because you can't use console on other servers, so you'd need to explicitly ask server owner every time you'd want to skip the boring part of the game which would be really awkward, you also don't need to remove it using mods either, you can not use it on your own unless you're hosting a competition That's why it's having a negative impact. People like you assume that others will play by your rules. Voidwalking can be easily avoided, but you cann't. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovens Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 21 hours ago, grm9 said: Why do a lot of people want bugs (e.g. voidwalking) and strats (e.g. anim cancelling, dfly walls, specific character abilities etc.) if they don't need to use them and interact with them? No one forces you to voidwalk and you can't accidentally do that, similarly to anim cancelling, using walls for dfly etc., why do you want the devs to force you to play in a specific way even though you can do that on your own? DST isn't a competitive game either, almost everyone who bring up speedrunning never speedrun nor watch actual speedruns, and most of those who do know that there's very little competition in most categories, and even if there would've been strats that were too good and simple, categories without them could've been created, similarly to FW restricted. If you're making a competition on your own, then it's even easier to prevent people from using bugs and strats that you don't want people to use, since you can use mods to make them impossible to perform. Wanting something like inconsistent attack speed, lag etc. fixed is understandable, those don't add much to the game and you can't avoid interacting with them. People also might say that they don't like that others use bugs and strats that they refuse to use on public servers etc. but why? How does that affect you? If you think that it's unfair that they do that while you can't because of your own ruleset, then why do you think you're in some sort of competition to start with and why should they play by your rules? Meanwhile removing bugs and strats only removes some ways in which you can play the game, possibly reducing the amount of time you'll enjoy the game for without adding anything else, removing a bug or a strat won't make you enjoy the game more or play it for longer, since you could've ignored it's existence from the start. People also say that patching strats that are simple and ineffective pushes people that used them into using more interesting strats, but why can't they use those strats on their own? Even if a strat would've been more fun and less efficient, you can still use it, no one forces you to play as efficiently as possible. Not to argue with you or anything but hilariously enough I did accidentally void walk once. I was running towards the void "river" between the two cave biomes with a lazy explorer and used it to teleport across while still running. I somehow ended up getting stuck in between the two landmasses after my teleport even though I clearly aimed my cursor at the land on the other side. Not sure if lag caused that or what. I wish I were recording, it was pretty funny. I still have a screenshot of that happening - you can see there are no walls/gates around to push me there. It did not affect my gameplay in the slightest though. I used /rescue command and landed where I intended. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 10 hours ago, grm9 said: 10 hours ago, goatt said: What's the intended design of void? You can't walk on it how is that even relevant considering that doesn't make getting to atrium normally fun If this is your response to that then there is no chance of convincing you of anything that supports why people want things changed. It appears you are asking "Why?" without accepting the answers given. If something is intended to be one way and their intentions failed then the developer can be like "Cool that is an unintended consequence, let's keep it." or "Oh shoot, that is an unintended consequence. We need to change that." Considering the intention of the void is "You. Shall. Not. Pass." having players walking on it falls into the former of the two developer options. Klei could change that if they wish, but they have yet to make a comment (that I know of), as such it is seen as a negative unintended feature rather than a positive. Literally can't make it any simpler than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 10 hours ago, goatt said: Your question is "why" is void walking kiting a negative effect. I think it's obvious. Because you can easily avoid most of boss attacks, if you are not skilled enough to avoid all so how does that negatively affect you, considering the way others play doesn't affect you and you can simply not voidwalk if you think that doing that will make you enjoy the game less? 6 hours ago, Seero said: damn people want klei to fix animation cancelling? it's an exploit that plays out as a very high-level skill. I'm a huge fan of it, i'm getting better and better at it every day It would suck if they fixed it. And I would download the first mod that re-adds it back in a heartbeat. Allows bosses to be killed quicker, which means less resources needed, less time preparing + fighting more time to focus on other parts of this survival game funny part is that it isn't even an exploit, devs pretty much explicitly admitted that they're keeping it in the game intentionally, they could've just increased player's minimal attack speed by a bit to disable anim cancelling, similarly to how they increased it to nerf anim cancelling after releasing the update with the archives 4 hours ago, Cassielu said: That's why it's having a negative impact. People like you assume that others will play by your rules. Voidwalking can be easily avoided, but you cann't i'm not forcing them to play in a specific way, since they aren't forced to use voidwalking, but removing voidwalking would force people that used it to play the way those who didn't do for no reason, how does someone else using voidwalking on the same server that you're on, assuming you aren't in some sort of competition, negatively affect you? 3 hours ago, Evelo said: If this is your response to that then there is no chance of convincing you of anything that supports why people want things changed. It appears you are asking "Why?" without accepting the answers given. If something is intended to be one way and their intentions failed then the developer can be like "Cool that is an unintended consequence, let's keep it." or "Oh shoot, that is an unintended consequence. We need to change that." Considering the intention of the void is "You. Shall. Not. Pass." having players walking on it falls into the former of the two developer options. Klei could change that if they wish, but they have yet to make a comment (that I know of), as such it is seen as a negative unintended feature rather than a positive. Literally can't make it any simpler than that it would make most sense to remove things that are making people enjoy the game less and for less time and voidwalking doesn't do that Edited February 23 by grm9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1464576869 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) As the saying goes. Hard not to optimize the fun out of a game Once a community has become accustomed to exploits I tend to think there's rather a need on the developer's end to design substitutes to it. Something that achieves similar goals but also isn't unfun. Voidwalking is interesting to think about though, it saves time, since being forced to fill out a map of infinite worthless branches actually is the unfun we're skipping out on. At the same time, all it does is save time, it's still just walking across worthlessness, it's in the name even, Void. The fix for voidwalking could mean to make vanilla exploring too tempting to not bother skipping out on. Or make it a little easier to hone in on specific landmarks you have in mind. Not necessarily just remove it. Edited February 23 by user1464576869 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 19 hours ago, grm9 said: they can be ignored when balancing stuff, shadow rifts content wasn't balanced around killing fuelweaver by getting him stuck nearby the ancient gateway room entrance Ignoring those exploits would make the rewards for fuel weaver much easier to obtain, hence making its drops more powerful than it should be. The game's progression is influenced by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 12 minutes ago, _zwb said: Ignoring those exploits would make the rewards for fuel weaver much easier to obtain, hence making its drops more powerful than it should be. The game's progression is influenced by this you can not use them for that if you don't like doing it that way then Edited February 23 by grm9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) On 2/22/2024 at 12:08 PM, grm9 said: No one forces you to voidwalk and you can't accidentally do that, similarly to anim cancelling ... 6 hours ago, Lovens said: Not to argue with you or anything but hilariously enough I did accidentally void walk once. In fact is not hard at all to accidentally "void-walk": it can happen when placing structures at the margin of map, when a mob is pushing you in corners and out of boundaries, when you transit with various sanity-controlling means between Obelisks in Atrium, when you lag/"rubberband" and use Lazy Explorer as per example above, etc. Just some weeks ago, when I was navigating Atrium with 2 friends, both of them got pushed outside by said Obelisks, one in insane state and a Terrorbeak attacked her there, got killed and absolutely all her loot "deleted" by the void space. Another time a friend had his tamed beef & backpack pushed into the void by Obelisks. The issue is so prevalent KLei had to introduce a special tab in in-game Esc menu, aka the mentioned "/rescue" command in button format. On Forest Shard is naturally not-so-easy to go out of map's play-space, but in Cave one, due to darkness and many tight spaces, a lot of things can result in your void displacement. People arguing otherwise solely signal to me how little they play and experiment in Cave environment. That being written, as a principle am not against KLei fixing blatant exploits. Yet, personally, I don't consider "Abyss Gate" as one such example since it doesn't provide huge advantages (think "healing AG corpse with glands to duplicate his loot" levels, boat on land gathering absolutely everything in its path, or - on the trolling side - the destruction of Glommer statue via boat platform), is always localized and doesn't affect game-play as a whole, only underlines some mechanics' problems: the fact one cannot TP in caves, aka solo-using Lazy Deserter via a process similar to Meat Effigy attuning, or that we don't have consistent, all-year-round means to delete/"recycle" items - probably most important use of "Void Gates", aka dumping trash in. As for people adamant on all others from same server to play their preferred way indifferent of circumstances, what else can I write for such "control freaks": if is their server, yes, their "home", their rules; but when is about pub environment and their play-style being an absolute minority, maybe instead of trying to compel others to their whims, they should look for other servers/make their own and play with like-minded individuals. As many stated, DST isn't a competitive game, if someone is "cheesing" DF with walls before you did it "legit", wait your turn, or solely de-log. Edited February 23 by MondayNight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 11 minutes ago, grm9 said: you can not use them if you don't like using them for that then Again, I'm saying this from a design perspective. It's not about me "just don't use it", it's about how most people would play the game. If there's an exploit that allows players to obtain a powerful equipment, but it is only meant to be obtained at a certain progression level, then everything before that level would be easier than they should be. For example, obtaining the bone helm early on makes Wickerbottom& Maxwell a lot powerful than they should be, when they shouldn't be that powerful yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, _zwb said: It's not about me "just don't use it", it's about how most people would play the game why do you care about that and why do you need people to play the way you do? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty_Mentos Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 There's no more convenient ways to get to places that we don't wanna try travelling forever to (unless you're Wanda then you are stimker) People I noticed are very lazy on getting a speed befalo when it literally saves so much time later in the game by not needing roads everywhere and they cut travel to ruins and many places by what feels like half and I can speed into ruins station and back home in less than a day with one. Void walking is only there to supplement the lack of lazy explorer or traveling really far distances that you can't teleport to. Primarily I think it's used to get to atrium since it's also not guaranteed to have a spot to telepoof to it. Wortox is alternative way to do it, which really makes little change but make things faster. Also Wanda, I guess. Some cheeses are just convenient because it's very boring to fight same bosses with their basic attacks and character basic attacks till they fall and die. This applies to majority of the more classic bosses because they're not exactly developed to be an RPG levels of box complexity threats, unless we're talking about the new moonbound bosses, fuelweaver and celestial champion. Bigger health =/= fun in a game when combat mechanics aren't any bit developed. Klei been experimenting more with the new bosses and I appreciate that the most and I can tell that reception to these is very highly positive from everyone I heard around. Everyone loves these bosses but hates bee queen, toad, nobody cares about dragonfly and crabking is still an oddity all together. If Klei or anyone wants like you to have many of these issues fixed then they'll have to rework and add the content to make it fun and interesting. If none of it would happen then there is no fix needed and I think it's for the current moment everything is fine. Also it's a sandbox game, till developers work on these 'issues' it'll take a lotta time and patience cause they want to make more content and reworking old aspects of the game will take too much time right now. Though I will say it's a good thing you want these changes and you want better overall experience instead of weird and icky mechanics that ruin the immersion and I do same, but this game's been out for forever and it's so much more different every year or two. Patience and posts like these is the feedback Klei needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameoAppearance Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Personally I don't use voidwalking for practical purposes unless another player sets up a whole group field trip, but I'd rather use a Lazy Explorer or Wortox's soul hop to teleport to the atrium area than sift through a bunch of annoying tentapillar fights to find the right one. I hate fighting tentapillars and all their stupid baby tentacles. This does of course depend on some portion of the atrium landmass generating so it's visible from elsewhere in the caves; even if you've already been there, telelocators don't work underground, lazy deserters need you to send a player in first, and I don't always want to play Wortox or Wanda. 4 hours ago, Lovens said: Not to argue with you or anything but hilariously enough I did accidentally void walk once. I was running towards the void "river" between the two cave biomes with a lazy explorer and used it to teleport across while still running. I somehow ended up getting stuck in between the two landmasses after my teleport even though I clearly aimed my cursor at the land on the other side. Not sure if lag caused that or what. I wish I were recording, it was pretty funny. I still have a screenshot of that happening - you can see there are no walls/gates around to push me there. It did not affect my gameplay in the slightest though. I used /rescue command and landed where I intended. I also accidentally voidwalked once, but it was because I was using a mod that let me sit on anything like it was a chair and I disembarked on the wrong side of the terrain edge. In your case I'm guessing it was lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed? Same can be asked when people complain about awful mechanics that dont affect them being changed. Some people have a lot of tunnel vision about their bland and short way of thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 18 minutes ago, grm9 said: why do you care about that and why do you need people to play the way you do? To quote J.P.Sartre, "I am thus responsible for myself and for all men, and I am creating a certain image of man as I would have him to be. In fashioning myself I fashion man." Spoiler By man he didn't mean male, it's just there's no gender neutral word for that in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 4 minutes ago, _zwb said: To quote J.P.Sartre, "I am thus responsible for myself and for all men, and I am creating a certain image of man as I would have him to be. In fashioning myself I fashion man." Hide contents that still doesn't make sense because most people don't know and don't care about how you specifically play 9 minutes ago, _zwb said: Hide contents By man he didn't mean male, it's just there's no gender neutral word for that in English human? 21 minutes ago, arubaro said: Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed? Same can be asked when people complain about awful mechanics that dont affect them being changed. Some people have a lot of tunnel vision about their bland and short way of thinking your response sounds rude, incomplete and doesn't contain a proper answer nor a reason for what you've said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 5 minutes ago, grm9 said: that still doesn't make sense because most people don't know and don't care about how you specifically play You asked "why do you care about that and why do you need people to play the way you do? ", I gave my reason. Nothing to do with other people. 7 minutes ago, grm9 said: human? Almost but not quite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 13 minutes ago, _zwb said: Nothing to do with other people then idk what's meant by 32 minutes ago, _zwb said: I am thus responsible for myself and for all men Reveal hidden contents Edited February 23 by grm9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cropo Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 12 minutes ago, grm9 said: then idk what's meant by I think zwb is trying to say that they have some civic duty to police the playstyle of other users based on that quote? Like literally saying there is some moral beauty to it. That's what I got out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, grm9 said: then idk what's meant by Oh I misread your comment, sorry for that. What I meant was, if I say "void walking is bad", I wouldn't mean it's bad for me only, but for everyone. After all, it's the same situation for everyone. How could it become good if another person is using it? When I make a value judgement I'm making it for everyone, even if they don't know and don't care. I'm not saying everyone should all believe what I do, of course you can choose differently, I would just disagree with you. 1 hour ago, cropo said: they have some civic duty to police the playstyle of other users I feel like this post's entire purpose is to reassure this type of idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiliano Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 It could not be simpler. It's a bug. A bug tends to get fixed, and it's completely normal for people to want things fixed, especially in one of their favorite games. Okay, next question. Note: I also use exploits, but if they are fixed, I will be totally ok with this, after all I use them with the knowledge that they can be fixed at any time. We also have to hope that what leads us to use the exploit is also improved. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 33 minutes ago, _zwb said: What I meant was, if I say "void walking is bad", I wouldn't mean it's bad for me only, but for everyone. After all, it's the same situation for everyone. How could it become good if another person is using it? When I make a value judgement I'm making it for everyone, even if they don't know and don't care but why do you want people to be affected by what you think, even though them being affected by it wouldn't affect you? What would you get from the bug getting fixed? 22 minutes ago, Castiliano said: It could not be simpler. It's a bug. A bug tends to get fixed, and it's completely normal for people to want things fixed, especially in one of their favorite games it doesn't make sense to remove bugs that only add something positive to the game, since they don't impact people that don't want to interact with them 35 minutes ago, _zwb said: I'm not saying everyone should all believe what I do, of course you can choose differently, I would just disagree with you then why do you still want to force what you want others to do onto everyone? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiliano Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 12 minutes ago, grm9 said: it doesn't make sense to remove bugs Repeat this three times out loud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 31 minutes ago, grm9 said: What would you get from the bug getting fixed? What I think should be true is now true, what else do I need? 32 minutes ago, grm9 said: that only add something positive to the game, since they don't impact people that don't want to interact with them It doesn't, it just serves as a band aid solution for finding tentapillar takes forever. It covers the real problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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