Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed?

[Cheggf]

59 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

I agree.

I know that this is the very definition of a strawman but -

Imagine if the devs did rework Dragonfly for her chinese new year event, however it turns out that not only the wall exploit still works on her, it actaully bypasses some of the new mechanics/attacks that the devs have implemented. That would be bad, of course, the devs time and effort wasted cuz they didn't fix the exploit

I'm sure that there's some actual in-game example like this one

Yep. Ancient Guardian got reworked from the worst boss fight to a very fun one. In the process of reworking him, they removed his cheap cheese exploit where you just hold F until he's dead because he's stuck. But everyone loves that fight now, nobody is complaining about the removal of the exploit. If they hadn't fixed the exploit and still allowed you to just hold F many players would never experience the new fun fight since they're so used to the old way they don't even give the rework a chance. 

[Yuuko]

14 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You're right, the lavae should be able to swim through the pond. Agreed.

All that does is change how the wall is built, using signs or fossils instead of the pond.  Yes we can in fact literally move the goal post on this one...  b/c how the wall is built now is only the most efficient way to build the wall NOW, and it can always be built different if things change.

I think its really stupid to get hung up over some people using walls on dfly.  Its basically an in-game difficulty selection.  Yes it takes players deciding to have a bit more of a challenge to tackle her without a wall, and really any 2-3 characters can do it with reasonable coordination and just a few runs of experience, but do they HAVE to?  Should the game really FORCE them?  We got a lot of bosses in the game, some that even force you to play some mock Dark Souls style QTE fight, surely we can leave *1* boss where you have some control in setting up the arena?

tbh sounds more like some "pro uber l33t" players just hating.  You fight dfly how you want, let others fight how they want.  If you're in a group, talk about it.  If you're out voted - then you're out voted.  Pick a different group of people to play with, or make a better sales pitch for your method.

10 hours ago, Szczuku said:

I agree.

I know that this is the very definition of a strawman but -

Imagine if the devs did rework Dragonfly for her chinese new year event, however it turns out that not only the wall exploit still works on her, it actaully bypasses some of the new mechanics/attacks that the devs have implemented. That would be bad, of course, the devs time and effort wasted cuz they didn't fix the exploit

I'm sure that there's some actual in-game example like this one

Imagine they make a whole new boss with a really interesting option where you can slot in different gems to select the abilities of the boss but all of them are trolls except 1...

10 hours ago, Well-met said:

dst is the only game i know where the playerbase relies on exploits to enjoy the game

maybe it's time to find another title if this is your case

You haven't played very may games then lol.  Bugs happen, and as players find them useful they will get used.  Good developers take bug exploitation into account in designing new features.  Combos in fighting games grew out of "exploits" in animation cancelling.  Fast travel was borne out of map clipping bugs.  Fact is if players are continually doing a thing to bypass another thing it means that other thing might not be good.

And note - that doesn't mean the thing they're avoiding is hard, but it might be slow, boring, and worst of all - pure RNG.  Like void walking to AFW.  What are they cheesing by doing this?  They're skipping a completely RNG experience.  Tentapillars are randomly spawned, and a random one of these will lead to the Atrium.  A complete snooze fest of a chore that can take a highly variable amount of time and skill has absolutely zero barring.  It might be the first pillar, it might be the last, you have NO control over this!  Its not exciting or an adventure, its a bore... and that's it...

If Klei wants to fix void walking they need to address WHY people void walk in the first place and take the RNG out of tentapillar hunting.  Maybe have the Thulecite Medalion which already displays the location of the Ancient Key instead display the location of the tentapillar to Atriumn if you're also holding the key?

idk, give people a fun thing to do and they'll likely do that fun thing instead of cheesing, then we don't even need to fix the bug..................

For all of the streamers and yt videos I see of people void walking to AFW, I only see legit AFW fights..................

Edited February 23 by Yuuko

[Cassielu]

Because I'm selfish, over controlling and antisocial. I don't like it when you're happy.

[Mike23Ua]

The simple answers are If a game is doing something the developers intended it to do, you’re allowed to do it. If the game is doing something the developers did NOT intend for it to do, you should not be doing it because sooner or later.. they will fix it.

But DST is a game that is literally being built on forums feedback, so much to the point that Klei completely removes core long standing features (disease) just because no one liked it & thought it was a boring mechanic, even though it was a core part of the game for many years.. 

Gunpowder is another good example, it exists, it’s in the game.. you’re meant to use it… right? But then they go and give enemies Gunpowder resistance, so what do you even use it on anymore?

As much as I get an extreme satisfaction out of watching a bunch of bees sting crab king to death, I know this likely wasn’t an intended part of the fight, and at any second Klei gets the thought to do so, they can update his animations so that has pinchers swat the bees out the air.

That would also open up new ways of engaging the fight, bees could preoccupy the pinchers so they’re less focused on grabbing onto your boat or healing CK.

But Klei has to see how players actually come up with methods of how they approach the games tasks- before they can alter, change or fix them.

Because I assure you, even if Klei considers every “intended” way to tackle a part of the game, they’ll have players discover their own “unintended” ways that Klei probably never even thought of (hence the word unintended..)

Edited February 22 by Mike23Ua

[Jakepeng99]

10 hours ago, grm9 said:

Why do a lot of people want bugs (e.g. voidwalking) and strats (e.g. anim cancelling, dfly walls, specific character abilities etc.) if they don't need to use them and interact with them? No one forces you to voidwalk and you can't accidentally do that, similarly to anim cancelling, using walls for dfly etc., why do you want the devs to force you to play in a specific way even though you can do that on your own?

DST isn't a competitive game either, almost everyone who bring up speedrunning never speedrun nor watch actual speedruns, and most of those who do know that there's very little competition in most categories, and even if there would've been strats that were too good and simple, categories without them could've been created, similarly to FW restricted.

If you're making a competition on your own, then it's even easier to prevent people from using bugs and strats that you don't want people to use, since you can use mods to make them impossible to perform.

Wanting something like inconsistent attack speed, lag etc. fixed is understandable, those don't add much to the game and you can't avoid interacting with them.

People also might say that they don't like that others use bugs and strats that they refuse to use on public servers etc. but why? How does that affect you? If you think that it's unfair that they do that while you can't because of your own ruleset, then why do you think you're in some sort of competition to start with and why should they play by your rules?

Meanwhile removing bugs and strats only removes some ways in which you can play the game, possibly reducing the amount of time you'll enjoy the game for without adding anything else, removing a bug or a strat won't make you enjoy the game more or play it for longer, since you could've ignored it's existence from the start.

People also say that patching strats that are simple and ineffective pushes people that used them into using more interesting strats, but why can't they use those strats on their own? Even if a strat would've been more fun and less efficient, you can still use it, no one forces you to play as efficiently as possible.

They should remove void walking and add a dangerous shadow ocean we can sail on.

[Pedro cc]

This post is reposted bait at its core.

Bring back confused reaction

[goatt]

Here is a counter argument:

Why do you want to stop the fixing of bugs when you can create mod your server with the same bug-like features?

DST is a sandbox game, and we can do whatever we want, that's true. But DST is also just a game with a intended design behind everything. If the vanilla game has its own design, why can't we let the design complete itself? Just because you want to exploit some old bugs which you refuse to let go?

You don't have to let go. Just mod your server. Allow players to walk on water? You can. Allow players to walk on void? You can.

 

 

What's the intended design of void? You can't walk on it. Peroid. Interesting that people choose to willfully ignore the fact that void should just be void, and instead choose to believe void walk is a legit strategy.

Game is all about constraints and solutions. Proper constraints brings more long and extend the longivity of a game. If you think the current constraints of the game is too much, simply mod your game.

Edited February 22 by goatt

[Mr Giggio]

honestly void walking shouldnt be here in the first place and Im not arguing that

[BalkanCockroach]

7 minutes ago, goatt said:

intended design

If intended design isn't for solo players then those players seek to find methods to overcome it. For example the moonstone event is exhausting solo without abusing pathfinding. I think some can be keot some can be fixed. Like voidwalking is kinda cracked.

[grm9]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Yep. Ancient Guardian got reworked from the worst boss fight to a very fun one. In the process of reworking him, they removed his cheap cheese exploit where you just hold F until he's dead because he's stuck. But everyone loves that fight now, nobody is complaining about the removal of the exploit. If they hadn't fixed the exploit and still allowed you to just hold F many players would never experience the new fun fight since they're so used to the old way they don't even give the rework a chance

that's mostly their problem tbf, and they would've probably got to experience it anyway by trying to do pillar cheese, no one is stopping them from trying to have fun, there's no need to remove things to force some specific people into having fun

17 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

This post is reposted bait at its core.

Bring back confused reaction

the most worthless reply out of all in the thread

35 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They should remove void walking and add a dangerous shadow ocean we can sail on

exactly the problem, people are asking to remove things for no reason, if going through the ocean would be fun surely people would do that instead if they want to have fun

6 minutes ago, goatt said:

Why do you want to stop the fixing of bugs when you can create mod your server with the same bug-like features?

because it takes less time to not remove something in comparison to removing something and it's more awkward to work around wanting to allow things that you liked in comparison to not allowing things that you don't like, e.g. you can not use a bug on all servers regardless of if you're playing on PC, but you can't use a bug that got patched unless you're playing on your own server on PC and you aren't going to ruin someone else's fun by using most bugs either

14 minutes ago, goatt said:

What's the intended design of void? You can't walk on it

how is that even relevant considering that doesn't make getting to atrium normally fun

[GimplyGoose]

10 hours ago, grm9 said:

Why do a lot of people want bugs (e.g. voidwalking) and strats (e.g. anim cancelling, dfly walls, specific character abilities etc.) if they don't need to use them and interact with them? No one forces you to voidwalk and you can't accidentally do that, similarly to anim cancelling, using walls for dfly etc., why do you want the devs to force you to play in a specific way even though you can do that on your own?

I don't see a lot of people petitioning Klei to fix the voidwalking bug, so I'm not sure who your post is addressing.

I think voidwalking is an obvious exploit. I consider it similar to a bug in the game that would let you duplicate items or stop needing to eat. Should you use voidwalking? I think that should be up to you. If you are speedrunning the game in an any% category it would definitely be in your interest to use the exploit as it is the case for any other exploit that would give you a faster time. You may find that you don't like the content that voidwalking lets you skip and for that to be a good enough reason to use it.

Your argument about modding it out doesn't really make sense to me, because if the bug was fixed, you could also just use console commands to teleport to the ancient gateway.

I want to express that I don't really have a stake in whether or not it stays in the game. I think ultimately, it is up to Klei whether it is something they want in their game or not.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

I don't see a lot of people petitioning Klei to fix the voidwalking bug, so I'm not sure who your post is addressing

there previously were a lot, but the bug is old so not nearly as many actively asking now

7 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

Your argument about modding it out doesn't really make sense to me, because if the bug was fixed, you could also just use console commands to teleport to the ancient gateway

it's primarily because you can't use console on other servers, so you'd need to explicitly ask server owner every time you'd want to skip the boring part of the game which would be really awkward, you also don't need to remove it using mods either, you can not use it on your own unless you're hosting a competition 

[goatt]

1 hour ago, BalkanCockroach said:

For example the moonstone event is exhausting solo without abusing pathfinding.

Abusing game mechanics is fine. Abusing bugs is another thing.

[Jakepeng99]

40 minutes ago, grm9 said:

there previously were a lot, but the bug is old so not nearly as many actively asking now

it's primarily because you can't use console on other servers, so you'd need to explicitly ask server owner every time you'd want to skip the boring part of the game which would be really awkward, you also don't need to remove it using mods either, you can not use it on your own unless you're hosting a competition 

Most people ask for a tentacle pillar revamp in addition.

[grm9]

10 hours ago, goatt said:

Abusing game mechanics is fine. Abusing bugs is another thing

what's the exact difference between them then? Is mobs going through fossils and ignoring walls that they can break a mechanic? Then voidwalking is a mechanic too, you need to push yourself through a gate and know how the world usually gets generated to end up anywhere useful 

Edited February 23 by grm9

[goatt]

 

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

because it takes less time to not remove something in comparison to removing something and it's more awkward to work around wanting to allow things that you liked in comparison to not allowing things that you don't like

So it's ok to save time by leaving bugs alone? Your argument about saving time is nonsense in itself.

Your wording of "remove something" also doesn't make sense. Debugging is not about "removing something" "takes more/less time", because that's not how coding works.

 

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

Quote

Abusing game mechanics is fine. Abusing bugs is another thing

what's the exact difference between them then? Is mobs going through fossils and ignoring walls that they can break a mechanic? Then voidwalking is a mechanic too, you need to push yourself through the gates and know how the world generates to end up anywhere useful 

The only difference in those 2 sentences are "mechanics" and "bugs". So what's the difference between "mechanics" and "bugs" you ask? I think it's quite self-explanatory. Mechanics are intended designs. Bugs are undesirable broken codes.

Edited February 22 by goatt

[grm9]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

 

So it's ok to save time by leaving bugs alone? Your argument about saving time is nonsense in itself.

Your wording of "remove something" also doesn't make sense. Debugging is not about "removing something" "takes more/less time", because that's not how coding works

that's how it works, i make mods too, you can leave something if it doesn't break anything else and is only positively affecting the game

[Swiyss]

There was a lot of unintended features in the Betas that we get used to being removed. I always think "yeah this was good while it lasted, but it wasn't fair so it's ok".

The problem is that Klei let it last for too long, making people used to it.

[goatt]

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can leave something if it doesn't break anything else and is only positively affecting the game

Exactly, I completely agree.

But you cannot subjectively conclude its only positively affecting the game based on your own preference. If void walking is so positive, why not make it an official feature by introducing a void walking door officially? Then people can still do it "the hard way" while can get access to this so called "strategy" at the same time.

If it's so positive, you should be arguing for adding void walking as a real feature, rather then protecting the bugs from being removed.

 

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

e.g. you can not use a bug on all servers regardless of if you're playing on PC, but you can't use a bug that got patched unless you're playing on your own server on PC and you aren't going to ruin someone else's fun by using most bugs either

Every time you talked about this bug, your tone suggested you meant it was a feature. I can replace "bug / bug patched" with "feature / feature removed", your sentence will make the same exact sense. I think you confuse yourself with the difference between bugs and features (or strategies).

You want void walking, it's your sandbox game and your freedom. You hope it become a feature, that's also fine. But just because you are attached to a bug doesn't means it stops being a bug for others or for the game itself.

Like I said, just make a mod for that to protect your freedom and feeling, so that it doesn't prevent the game from growing whatever direction it wants to grow.

Removing a extensively exploited bug is not removing a feature / strategy. Although it may feel like that because some players have always abusing those bugs and found themselves uncomfortable without them.

(Don't get me wrong, I support the argument that some bugs can be made into features if they are mostly harmless or positive. But void walking isn't one of them, at least in my opinion.)

Edited February 22 by goatt

[Gi-Go]

Imagen being salty because people are having fun the "wrong" way? 

 

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, goatt said:

Exactly, I completely agree.

But you cannot subjectively conclude its only positively affecting the game based on your own preference. If void walking is so positive, why not make it an official feature by introducing a void walking door officially? Then people can still do it "the hard way" while can get access to this so called "strategy" at the same time.

If it's so positive, you should be arguing for adding void walking as a real feature, rather then protecting the bugs from being removed

it could be a bug and still affect the game only positively since it doesn't affect the game negatively because you can't accidentally voidwalk and you can skip a boring part of the game if you voidwalk intentionally

38 minutes ago, goatt said:

Every time you talked about this bug, your tone suggested you meant it was a feature. I can replace "bug / bug patched" with "feature / feature removed", your sentence will make the same exact sense. I think you confuse yourself with the difference between bugs and features (or strategies).

You want void walking, it's your sandbox game and your freedom. You hope it become a feature, that's also fine. But just because you are attached to a bug doesn't means it stops being a bug for others or for the game itself.

Like I said, just make a mod for that to protect your freedom and feeling, so that it doesn't prevent the game from growing whatever direction it wants to grow.

Removing a extensively exploited bug is not removing a feature / strategy. Although it may feel like that because some players have always abusing those bugs and found themselves uncomfortable without them.

(Don't get me wrong, I support the argument that some bugs can be made into features if they are mostly harmless or positive. But void walking isn't one of them, at least in my opinion.)

i still don't get why it needs to be removed

41 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

There was a lot of unintended features in the Betas that we get used to being removed. I always think "yeah this was good while it lasted, but it wasn't fair so it's ok".

The problem is that Klei let it last for too long, making people used to it

the problem is that there was no need to remove them if they didn't affect people that didn't know about them and there was almost no way to accidentally discover them

[Gi-Go]

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Yep. Ancient Guardian got reworked from the worst boss fight to a very fun one. In the process of reworking him, they removed his cheap cheese exploit where you just hold F until he's dead because he's stuck. But everyone loves that fight now, nobody is complaining about the removal of the exploit. If they hadn't fixed the exploit and still allowed you to just hold F many players would never experience the new fun fight since they're so used to the old way they don't even give the rework a chance. 

Nope, not everyone. I'm the guy who hates new ancient guardian. And I don't understand how anyone likes it. It's a baby boss for babies. He is heavily telegraphed (literally fails to get up every single time giving you massive time gap for retreat), runs into pillars like a dumbass even when you stand behind them (you don't need to bait and dodge you can just stand still), and to top it off the guy spawn extra obstacles to smash into as if 4 pillars weren't enough. 

Unreworked ag had a problem and that problem was his stupid 10k hp added in dst. Since you couldn't get a lot of hits on him if your only speed was from magi - fight was taking forever. But the reason I'm so pissed is because ag was flawless in single player and for some inexplicable reason that fragile boss was given this shitty rework as well. 

Like are you guys serious? This is the boss you consider to be fun? 

[goatt]

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it could be a bug and still affect the game only positively since it doesn't affect the game negatively because you can't accidentally voidwalk and you can skip a boring part of the game if you voidwalk intentionally

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i still don't get why it needs to be removed

Here is one example. You can use void walk to kite fuel weaver.

This is a known exploitation. Is it players' freedom to void kite? Absolutely. Is it intended? Absolutely not. Should be patched? I personally say yeah. Is it a negative effect? Yes, despite that it is players' freedom.

Edited February 22 by goatt

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, goatt said:

Is it a negative effect? Yes

why

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, BalkanCockroach said:

If intended design isn't for solo players then those players seek to find methods to overcome it. For example the moonstone event is exhausting solo without abusing pathfinding.

I did the moonstone event by creating one of those little ball tilting mazes like this:

Did I use more resources than I would have ever needed if I would’ve just abused a pathfinding exploit? Probably..

But it felt satisfying to make a huge maze that should’ve worked on not so intelligent creatures as a legitimate way of completing the event.