Skill Trees — Big Discussion

[Russian_Philin]

I see that many players and users create many different topics related to the same theme, that is, The Skill Trees. I suggest opening one big topic to discuss all the details about this aspect right here.

This will help to avoid clogging up the list of forums and simplify the search for information among them. I hope you will support this idea.

[_zwb]

Skill trees failed at character rebalance, that's all I have to say

[Szczuku]

Skill trees are a bad addition to the game

[Russian_Philin]

23 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Skill trees failed at character rebalance, that's all I have to say

13 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Skill trees are a bad addition to the game

I personally have nothing wrong with this aspect. Literally a second wind for some characters who were not saved by the rework. The problem here lies more in the fact that it must be approached rationally and competently in terms of implementation, and not in a hurry.

[skile]

I like them a lot so far, though as many may agree, the way you unlock points rn kinda sucks. 

Just hoping Winona finally gets what she deserves. 

[BezKa]

Skill tree succ

If I can ask for one thing regarding skill tree threads, it's if you're making one up, post it in the Suggestions section. That's the best place for it

[arubaro]

i like wormwood, woodie and willow's skill trees. Wigfrid's has interesting stuff but little ammount of choices

i dont like Wolfgang and wilson's tree neither the way of unlocking them

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, BezKa said:

if you're making one, post it in the Suggestions section

much less people will see it then

[Mestre Cuca]

I really like the ideia that we get more mechanics that rewards players, in general, i like skilltrees so far. And i think organizing topics from specific characters would help players and Klei develop news ideias better 

[GrapeVruit]

I was apprehensive of them at first, the idea of unlocking permanent buffs after a certain day count didn't feel like it belonged in Don't Starve. Though after playing with them myself, I became a fan of their inclusion. The only thing that worries me about skill tree's is falling down the same path as the character refreshes, in that the first few start out small and simple and overtime become more complex to where it takes longer to see their completion. Though unlike certain refreshes, I feel most of these skill tree's are just unnecessary additions that eat up development time. I think some of them are great, don't get me wrong, being able to set mobs on fire with my mind as Willow is freakin' amazing, but if you asked me if they needed these additions, I wouldn't say so. Especially for characters like WX-78, Maxwell, or Warly who display more complexity and unique progression throughout the game.

[PunkShark]

I like em, adds vareity and made characters who weren't qualified to be fun now is. While i am iffy about the.. implementation and the ways to achieve skill points (and the time required for it). I think what it has brought to our beloved roster so far has been a good beginning of what's to come. I like that it can make copies of players playing the same character be more unique and change your playstyle a bit . It does seem a little overkill to give skill trees for the characters who already have a complete kit at hand be even more expanded and while i know Klei will try their best not to make the already full kit characters be even stronger, i fail to see how. I wouldn't personally mind if some characters had less points to use and less skills to grab to make up for the fact they are already geared up with a kit from the beginning

 

[Russian_Philin]

23 minutes ago, arubaro said:

i like wormwood, woodie and willow's skill trees. Wigfrid's has interesting stuff but little ammount of choices

i dont like Wolfgang and wilson's tree neither the way of unlocking them

Basically, I agree with you about unlocking the Skill Tree. It's quite tedious. 
It would be possible to return the scheme with light bulbs from the original game, where you have to sacrifice some things, but in this case bring specific things to unlock a specific skill, or perform some special action.

[Gi-Go]

I like and dislike skill trees the same way I like and dislike that beefalos are overpowered. They are optional so when you want to have fun and mess with them you use them, and when you hate them you simply ignore them. Except theres an annoying glitch with the insight notification that keeps popping up daily telling you to use your insight points. Can't wait for it to get fixed.

One thing that bothers me tho is how every single skill is just buff with zero depth to it. I want downsides, or rather drawbacks. Willow for exsample gets skills that make fire weaker and stronger at the same time in ways that only help you. Wouldn't it be more fun to have skills for extra strong fires that deal massive damage but burn loot (even meat), option to have crazy fire spreading like in single player, or weaker fire that dosen't burn loot, weaker fire that dosen't spread. 

[arubaro]

13 minutes ago, Russian_Philin said:

Basically, I agree with you about unlocking the Skill Tree. It's quite tedious. 
It would be possible to return the scheme with light bulbs from the original game, where you have to sacrifice some things, but in this case bring specific things to unlock a specific skill, or perform some special action.

i think a good way that would benefit new players and veterans while bringing interesting gameplay paths would be to unlock the points on each world but by achieving milestones like crafting certain useful items and structures so noobs are incentive to learn to play while veterans can rush, visiting areas to incentive exploration, defeating bosses could give a couple of points so noobs can lose the fear while pros can complete the tree faster. The things is adding a lot of tasks so even in multiplayer you can get points.

Can be interesting how every person will play to progress in the game while also getting skill points, maybe some people will rush certain easy tasks to get points while other will take more time preparing for a boss, etc 

also some skill nodes should be unlocked by doing stuff (like some wigfrid's perks)

is more interactive and linked to gameplay instead of being something new on top of old content

also unlocking it via certain tasks and not having it day 1 would remove the complaints during willow's skill tree and future ones. Is hard to add balanced powerful perks if you will have them since day1... unlocking them on each new world can give more creative freedom 

[Toros]

I have mixed feelings about skill trees, and I think their implementation has been really uneven.

Character refreshes and skill tree implementation takes time to work through the cast, and I’m not seeing consistent design principles or mechanical power targets which ends up feeling chaotic.

I’ll speak to the Wolfgang rework and skill tree, because I am the most familiar with them and I think they’re a good example with both the strengths and weaknesses of the approach Klei has taken,

Wolf’s rework I think was well done in the context it was made.  At the time it decreased his mechanical strength, added flavor and utility and as a long time Wolfgang main, I was very happy with it.

However, when you compare Wolf’s rework to Max’s, it feels like the power point Wolf was aiming for is significantly below Max’s, to the point that we could argue Max is a more effective boss slayer while also having more utility and fun mechanics.

The general trend is that skill trees add power and fun mechanics, but Wolf overwhelmingly got passive boosts with his only new active mechanic being coaching which is awkward.  No one I know uses any of the 6 gym skills, and you can take all but one of the remaining skills.

Woodie’s skill tree was a phenomenal way to build on and enhance his existing strengths, and Willow’s and Wigfrid’s did a good job of introducing fun mechanics (for this point I’m explicitly not judging their balance or thematic cohesion).

My concern moving forward is that characters refreshed or introduced later (max, wanda, wickerbottom) will have far more fun, creative, and powerful skill trees than earlier characters.

My most actionable criticism of the whole system is that alignment perks just giving passive damage boosts/resists is boring.  Please make them interesting passives like Woodie or interesting actives like Willow.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Russian_Philin said:

I personally have nothing wrong with this aspect. Literally a second wind for some characters who were not saved by the rework. The problem here lies more in the fact that it must be approached rationally and competently in terms of implementation, and not in a hurry.

The problem is if there isn't some form of balance struck after skill trees are over people are going to want another wave of character refreshes due to the imbalance. One could argue this is going to be even worse now than before the skill trees as skill trees begin to make characters blend together much more than before making it even more necessary for some level of  balance.

[The Starver]

51 minutes ago, arubaro said:

 

i dont like Wolfgang and wilson's tree neither the way of unlocking them

As a Wilson main myself, this makes me sad. I’m currently filling out the skill tree, and I don’t have any problems with it.

I think that for some people, it helps to have a boost (like being able to craft morsels into meat for example, if you’re an idiot like me who takes massive damage trying to get meat from Pigs, Beefalo, or Spiders) at the beginning of the game, and also the Wilson skill tree allows you to craft an Iridescent Gem! I understand that more experienced players might prefer doing everything the original way, but for people like me who are in an intermediate skill level, the skill trees make things a bit easier, like Woodie’s woodworking skills. 

If I missed something or my information is inaccurate, please let me know. 

[Russian_Philin]

Spoiler

17 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem is if there isn't some form of balance struck after skill trees are over people are going to want another wave of character refreshes due to the imbalance. One could argue this is going to be even worse now than before the skill trees as skill trees begin to make characters blend together much more than before making it even more necessary for some level of  balance.

 

It seems to me that the balance for the characters will never be achieved in this game, because various new mechanics, creatures and so on are introduced on an ongoing basis. 

I understand the main problem that Skill Trees powerfully enhance characters, erasing their disadvantages altogether, but this has already happened during the reworks. So far, everything looks very one-sided, but I can't say for sure about the complete uselessness of this feature until the final updates for this entire story arc are released. Because without them, it is difficult to say what Skill Trees should be in the end. We don't have the full picture.

At the moment we have some unfinished content, but it still offers at least some alternatives in my opinion. This system will be improved in any case, I think.

[cybers2001]

So, I've had some thoughts on the skill tree system that sort of evolved over time as other characters got their trees. I have a solid idea of what I wish the system was like, though.

#1 Skills should not be "mandatory"

Woodie needed some protection from full moons for years now, as more and more mechanics were introduced to mess with the moon cycles. Wickerbottom being able to create infinite full moons was the last straw, tbh. The fact that the only way this is addressable is via skill points is problematic, though. So players have to defeat CC and earn 21 insight points to get the rebalance they need, and the shadow alternative is basically a meme as a result. I don't dislike it existing as a skill, but it shouldn't be the only solution to the problem. Here's an easy alternative I thought of: Allow the umbralla to block the full moon's effects. It fits thematically, too!

#2 Skills that enable variant playstyles should make sense

I really do like the idea that there are different branches that dramatically change the focus of the player's skills. Wolfgang having a tree that improves his mining skill is a great idea, and I'd love to see more utility-focused skills in that branch. Like we know Wolfgang is also a better paddler, maybe he could gain a skill that improves his ability to reel in fish, too? Maybe a skill where he gains mightiness while carrying large objects? I dunno, but definitely not the trainer skill. A playstyle where you stay normal and buff other players is just not Wolfgang at all. Likewise, I do actually like the idea of Wigfrid being a cavalry specialist, but the tree is just too limiting. The saddle encourages you to play like a tank, and the passive inspiration generation is only useful for... affinity-themed melodies, I guess? Maybe a Wigfrid has better ideas for synergies, but it seems that all the skills here just serve to give beefalo riding Wigfrids the same traits they already have while on foot. Not bad in itself, but a large investment of points to get there.

#3 Skills should be merit-based

I think it's fine to have a combination of path locks and minimum-inspiration locks similarly to the way affinity branches already are, but I was shocked to find that defeating CC and FW were one-time tasks that persisted across both worlds and characters. I think it would be way more rewarding to have to defeat FW as Wilson if I want shadow affinity for Wilson. Having it locked to the world itself also allows us to have actually strong perks tied to that branch without it feeling OP in brand new worlds. Imagine, Willow's affinity skills wouldn't have needed any nerfs, and could've even been buffed instead if it was a skill she had to earn in the world that she wants to use it. Going back to #2, having specialization branches would mean that other merit-based unlocks could correlate to those skills. So a farmer specialist Wormwood could easily unlock farming skills by just... doing farming related quests. Would be much more engaging and might also get players acclimated to different ways to play the game that they might not realize they actually enjoy.

#4 Less timey grindy

I think this becomes an easier pitch when combined with merit-based skill trees. I like the idea of insight points being permanent, to reduce the tedium, but some core skill branches can still be time-locked to every unique world. I'm basically proposing a middle-ground here, where it takes less time for a player to fully unlock a tree in a world, but there should be an additional time component for new worlds, too. So maybe for the first go-around, to accumulate the insight points, it takes a full in-game year, but in the next world, instead of those points being a bottleneck, the time locks are, and it instead takes more like half an in-game year.

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

it instead takes more like half an in-game year

that would still be bad because some characters, like willow, are nearly useless without the skill tree                                          

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

I definitely dislike skill trees being used to balance characters. I wish Willow would've actually been changed from the ground up as opposed to just a skill tree.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Russian_Philin said:

  Hide contents

 

It seems to me that the balance for the characters will never be achieved in this game, because various new mechanics, creatures and so on are introduced on an ongoing basis. 

I understand the main problem that Skill Trees powerfully enhance characters, erasing their disadvantages altogether, but this has already happened during the reworks. So far, everything looks very one-sided, but I can't say for sure about the complete uselessness of this feature until the final updates for this entire story arc are released. Because without them, it is difficult to say what Skill Trees should be in the end. We don't have the full picture.

At the moment we have some unfinished content, but it still offers at least some alternatives in my opinion. This system will be improved in any case, I think.

See the thing is balance wouldn't even need to be a major consideration but perk overlap makes this a problem because the characters are starting to feel more and more similar.

[cybers2001]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that would still be bad because some characters, like willow, are nearly useless without the skill tree                                          

That’s a Willow problem, not a skill tree problem.

Also note, unlocking isn’t all-or-nothing. You’d still be gaining skills along the way.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

That’s a Willow problem, not a skill tree problem

nah that's a problem with skill trees in general, they made woodie much more viable through the skill tree too, previously moose was hardly worth it in comparison to just using a ham bat, goose was much worse than getting a beefalo and the treeguard idol wasn't a thing 

4 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Also note, unlocking isn’t all-or-nothing. You’d still be gaining skills along the way

most of the good abilities are at the end of the skill trees, burninb bernie requires 9 points, lunar fire requires 8 points etc.

[cybers2001]

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

nah that's a problem with skill trees in general, they made woodie much more viable through the skill tree too, previously moose was hardly worth it in comparison to just using a ham bat, goose was much worse than getting a beefalo and the treeguard idol wasn't a thing 

most of the good abilities are at the end of the skill trees, burninb bernie requires 9 points, lunar fire requires 8 points etc.

I mean, did you read my #1?

to answer more specifically, I simply disagree with your Woodie argument. His pre-skill moose was just fine for early-game needs like clearing spider and bee biomes. He was actually a strong starter overall since you also explore the map quickly as goose too. I used to do speed runs as Woodie that involved rushing moon island for glass cutters.

His tree allows him to scale into lategame, which makes it even more practical as a time-locked buff.