Skill Trees — Big Discussion

[Cockroach Lily]

Willow's lunar flames are way too strong in pvp.

[grm9]

53 minutes ago, Cockroach Lily said:

Willow's lunar flames are way too strong in pvp.

is pvp even a thing considering you can shadow prison others and almost no one plays pvp

[zhangsheng]

1 hour ago, Cockroach Lily said:

Willow's lunar flames are way too strong in pvp.

The official has almost never implemented the PVP mode, and DST has always been a PVE game.

[Just Ragnar]

I feel like the skill trees should be finished before they add any more planar stuff. There shouldnt be this half-baked mechanic that heavily affects your world before every character has their own way of dealing with them. You shouldnt feel obligated to choose a character just because they counter a mechanic the character you actually like playing doesent counter.

[Antynomity]

16 hours ago, ShyRasan123 said:

I feel like the skill trees should be finished before they add any more planar stuff. There shouldnt be this half-baked mechanic that heavily affects your world before every character has their own way of dealing with them. You shouldnt feel obligated to choose a character just because they counter a mechanic the character you actually like playing doesent counter.

The best solution would be removing planar.

[Just Ragnar]

4 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

The best solution would be removing planar.

Elaborate. I see you saying remove planar a lot, could you please give me some more reasoning and examples? Thanks!

[grm9]

1 minute ago, ShyRasan123 said:

Elaborate. I see you saying remove planar a lot, could you please give me some more reasoning and examples? Thanks!

makes old weapons entirely useless and requires a ton of updates for characters to work properly with it

[Bird Up]

I think skill trees are good in the perspective that you MUST kill FW and CC to actually obtain the strong alignments, and the skill trees are there to help you with the post-rift content.

However with questionable execution on Klei's part, some of the skill trees are incredibly powerful and overshadow the basic perks of the character. I think of Woodie. With Woodie's skill tree, it removes his only downside which is he transforms randomly during every full moon, and then the skill tree makes his moose absurdly powerful right off the bat on day 1, along with all the other utility that comes with the skill tree. It gave him way too much power which should have been more innate to his character, not locked behind a skill tree which ends up defining the character. Just the fact that Woodie can goose over to Frostjaw on day 1, transform into Moose with Moose skill tree perks and hold F and win is insane.

[Swiyss]

50 minutes ago, grm9 said:

makes old weapons entirely useless and requires a ton of updates for characters to work properly with it

I think there is room for improvement regarding planar mechanics, either reworking it or changing it a bit. But removing the feature completely and calling it a day would be one of the worst decisions to make imo.

24 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

I think skill trees are good in the perspective that you MUST kill FW and CC to actually obtain the strong alignments, and the skill trees are there to help you with the post-rift content.

However with questionable execution on Klei's part, some of the skill trees are incredibly powerful and overshadow the basic perks of the character. I think of Woodie. With Woodie's skill tree, it removes his only downside which is he transforms randomly during every full moon, and then the skill tree makes his moose absurdly powerful right off the bat on day 1, along with all the other utility that comes with the skill tree. It gave him way too much power which should have been more innate to his character, not locked behind a skill tree which ends up defining the character. Just the fact that Woodie can goose over to Frostjaw on day 1, transform into Moose with Moose skill tree perks and hold F and win is insane.

They shouldn't lock the skill tree behind only surviving with the character once for 150 days. I think adding something that you have to do Per world to unlock those things would make the game progress in a much better pace than what we have right now.

[Russian_Philin]

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

The best solution would be removing planar.

This type of damage should not be removed, but correctly adjusted in game conditions so that it does not only cause irritation, but also brings some intrigue in battles.

At the moment, I agree that this is all very raw, but the developers have not yet released a final update regarding this story arc, so there are hopes that it will all make sense and undergo changes.

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, ShyRasan123 said:

Elaborate. I see you saying remove planar a lot, could you please give me some more reasoning and examples? Thanks!

They make old weapons punish you for using them, eliminating variety, it forces skill trees to have filler skills with planar catch ups, it fails at its job at stopping power creep because the gear sucked so bad they needed to make them power creepy, it's a mechanic that is very poorly explained in-game too.

19 minutes ago, Russian_Philin said:

This type of damage should not be removed, but correctly adjusted in game conditions so that it does not only cause irritation, but also brings some intrigue in battles.

At the moment, I agree that this is all very raw, but the developers have not yet released a final update regarding this story arc, so there are hopes that it will all make sense and undergo changes.

From what Klei has been doing recently it is clear to me that they will not make the system more intriguing, as they keep shoving filler into skill trees and doubling down by not saying anything to any complaints about it, as it stands the system is worse than it simply not being in-place to begin with.

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, Antynomity said:

They make old weapons punish you for using them.

Yeah.. that's the whole point of having planar damage. They want to incentivise players to use planar damage to fight enemies with planar defense.

 

2 hours ago, Antynomity said:

eliminating variety

Yet they added brightshade sword, brightshade bomb, brightshade staff, shadow reaper and all 3 planar defensive sets. If you're complaining that dark swords are getting outdated by something better and different.. then I agree. They shouldn't make pure horror simply drop from a different enemy. That's because I think the game has been like that for years, and to suddenly make those changes means that old resources and weapons that we used for a while are being forgotten instead of rearranged.

 

2 hours ago, Antynomity said:

it forces skill trees to have filler skills with planar catch ups, it fails at its job at stopping power creep because the gear sucked so bad they needed to make them power creepy, it's a mechanic that is very poorly explained in-game too.

I somewhat agree here. The power creep and game progression isn't all that great implemented. But I don't think they should explain planar damage to the player, there is already a visual indication when you attacks those creatures, and you can clearly see they deal true damage if you pay enough attention.

 

2 hours ago, Antynomity said:

From what Klei has been doing recently it is clear to me that they will not make the system more intriguing, as they keep shoving filler into skill trees and doubling down by not saying anything to any complaints about it, as it stands the system is worse than it simply not being in-place to begin with

We're still at the start of all of this. The game's new late game era is only beginning, and they're taking it slow, so there is still a lot of room for improvement. We can't expect them to be perfect with every addition too. We need to be patience and resilient about it. They can always come back too. And if Klei decide to not change it or adjust it, that's not the end of the day. You can still play other games that fulfill exactly what your complains are asking for. I think the worst thing we can do is speak in a pessimistic way about these changes. Try praising them for the great additions they're making.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

Try praising them for the great additions they're making

which ones? the only recent good one is probably the crabby hermit chair task

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah.. that's the whole point of having planar damage. They want to incentivise players to use planar damage to fight enemies with planar defense.

 

Yet they added brightshade sword, brightshade bomb, brightshade staff, shadow reaper and all 3 planar defensive sets. If you're complaining that dark swords are getting outdated by something better and different.. then I agree. They shouldn't make pure horror simply drop from a different enemy. That's because I think the game has been like that for years, and to suddenly make those changes means that old resources and weapons that we used for a while are being forgotten instead of rearranged

planar weapons are better than normal weapons against all enemies atm, brightshade sword and ink scythe are less than ham bat, shield of terror, thule club, dark sword and morning star

[Jakepeng99]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:49 PM, BezKa said:

Skill tree succ

If I can ask for one thing regarding skill tree threads, it's if you're making one up, post it in the Suggestions section. That's the best place for it

It is a discussion not a suggestion.

 

[Antynomity]

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah.. that's the whole point of having planar damage. They want to incentivise players to use planar damage to fight enemies with planar defense.

Then don't add said mechanic if all it brings to the table is a cut to the game's combat content to be less unique and varied., until you have enough items to make it an acceptable addition.

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Yet they added brightshade sword, brightshade bomb, brightshade staff, shadow reaper and all 3 planar defensive sets. If you're complaining that dark swords are getting outdated by something better and different.. then I agree. They shouldn't make pure horror simply drop from a different enemy. That's because I think the game has been like that for years, and to suddenly make those changes means that old resources and weapons that we used for a while are being forgotten instead of rearranged.

that is barely anything compared to the amount pre-rift if it comes to weapons and armor, even then it's not a lot, which should make it easy to replace it with a decent assortment of items and weapons, clearly it wasn't. I am not complaining about dark swords being replaced, quite the opposite because it isn't getting replaced as klei is still so scared for no real reason to surpass the 68 damage threshold for once properly, so instead they reskin darkswords at infinitum or give them some unique-feeling ability that ends up being not so useful due to implementation (like the reaper, it's bonus is so damn useless in fights that aren't a singular target because 3 seconds is often not even close to being enough to properly line up enemies so you can land hits in, yet another mechanic designed strictly for bosses).

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

I somewhat agree here. The power creep and game progression isn't all that great implemented. But I don't think they should explain planar damage to the player, there is already a visual indication when you attacks those creatures, and you can clearly see they deal true damage if you pay enough attention.

I was more talking about the formula for calculating how much your damage gets reduced if it's non-planar hitting a planar enemy, there's no reason for it to be so punishing towards the player for using damage modifiers, if they are that concerned about damage modifiers, then here's a ground breaking idea on how it could be fixed... ahem nerfing damage modifiers that currently exist, expecially volt goat chaud-froid.
 

 

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

We're still at the start of all of this. The game's new late game era is only beginning, and they're taking it slow, so there is still a lot of room for improvement. We can't expect them to be perfect with every addition too.

It started off terribly with brightshades which still feel like an early-access feature and I'm not talking about the art or animation here.

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

We need to be patience and resilient about it. They can always come back too. And if Klei decide to not change it or adjust it, that's not the end of the day.

I've been patient with the ocean, only got disappointed more and more and it seems like they are finally throwing the white flag over the wall by adding a band-aid fix to seafaring, that being the bootleg getaway gotten from yet another boss.

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Try praising them for the great additions they're making.

I praised them in the past with things they have done well, even with this arc, however I will not blindly praise something I don't agree with or something that I think is awfully implemented, simple as. Otherwise we get a tf2 2.0 situation where Valve can throw together any slop and everyone congratulates them as if they have done something amazing, even if 95% of the update isn't even made by them.

[Swiyss]

31 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

Then don't add said mechanic if all it brings to the table is a cut to the game's combat content to be less unique and varied., until you have enough items to make it an acceptable addition.

Killing and fighting against those enemies is HARDER without planar damage, but then easier with it. It is meant to feel hard at first, but as you gather those new resources, find ways to craft those new items and finally get to use it then it should feel easier; thus rewarding the player for leveling up their gear. It's a good mechanic on paper, however my critique is that it should be obligated, not optional. 

Right now you can fight the 3 new lunar mutated bosses and the 3 new inkblights without or with planar damage and defense; we can choose to do it easily or the hard way, and I think we should experience the Hard Way first to THEN thrive with the easy way. We should be able to get Lunar to fight Shadow and vice-versa. Or first suffer to then thrive. The only place where that happens with the new stuff is when you're first killing brightshades, and yet you can easily counter them if you use Shadow gear against it. The same can be said for the inkblights, they are extremely easy with a brightshade staff + helmet. There is hardly any challenge added with planar stuff. And at the same time, the rewards are way too good, making people want to skip the whole early game to be in the late game. People are starting to rush the game without experiencing each phase and each part because the game's early game leveling is kinda underwhelming and *gasp* kinda boring.

44 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

until you have enough items to make it an acceptable addition

For me that's the problem, you should suffer to then thrive, that's more rewarding than just beating them like you would beat a koalefant.

 

47 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

(like the reaper, it's bonus is so damn useless in fights that aren't a singular target because 3 seconds is often not even close to being enough to properly line up enemies so you can land hits in, yet another mechanic designed strictly for bosses).

I would like if they added a rightclick attack to the reaper similar to wigfrid's charged elder spear, but with a different attack.

 

48 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

that is barely anything compared to the amount pre-rift if it comes to weapons and armor, even then it's not a lot, which should make it easy to replace it with a decent assortment of items and weapons, clearly it wasn't. I am not complaining about dark swords being replaced, quite the opposite because it isn't getting replaced as klei is still so scared for no real reason to surpass the 68 damage threshold for once properly, so instead they reskin darkswords at infinitum or give them some unique-feeling ability that ends up being not so useful due to implementation

For me, I understand what they tried to do. It should feel the same to old mobs so they still feel like a challenge, but it's game changing against new content, so they feel like "less" of a challenge than they would if you used regular gear compared to planar ones. They are "scared" as you pointed out because they haven't added the Big Big challenges yet, so to do things linearly and not randomly, they're trying their best so that these updates feel coherent and completed with each new patch. That's because they are releasing the game slowly.

The fact that these new gears came pretty much before the challenge tho speaks a lot about how they like to progress the game. They knew that people would scream and cream if they released crystal deerclops, armored bearger and possesed varg without the stunning mechanics from planar stuff. So they gave you equipment before sending you to war. 

Imo they should've locked the equipment behind overcoming the issues. It would feel more rewarding. The skill trees kinda fail in that regard to as you can unlock its full potential once, so then when starting a new world you have them unlocked from the get-go. That for me is also something that shouldn't be like that.

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

was more talking about the formula for calculating how much your damage gets reduced if it's non-planar hitting a planar enemy, there's no reason for it to be so punishing towards the player for using damage modifiers, if they are that concerned about damage modifiers, then here's a ground breaking idea on how it could be fixed... ahem nerfing damage modifiers that currently exist, expecially volt goat chaud-froid

They don't want to affect the early game experience, hence why planar damage exists in the first place. They did what they wanted and succeded in that regard. I don't understand your complain. They wanted something and obtained it. Their objetive is done. So it's a great design.

[Mike23Ua]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:48 AM, ShyRasan123 said:

I feel like the skill trees should be finished before they add any more planar stuff. There shouldnt be this half-baked mechanic that heavily affects your world before every character has their own way of dealing with them. You shouldnt feel obligated to choose a character just because they counter a mechanic the character you actually like playing doesent counter.

I don’t know.. to me the weapons and armors to deal with planar (& whatever the shadow variant is called) is already in the game, so while yes.. some characters have planar abilities (like moose Woodie) they don’t actually NEED those abilities cause anyone can equip a Brightshade helm, armor and sword.

That said: A lot of people hate Planar mechanics because it makes using cheese strategies (elaborately set up contraptions) to fight the mobs with less useable.

I can see why characters like Wurt would need planar though.. her entire character design is building a Merm army, so when that becomes less effective, she just becomes Wilson 2.0

[SSneaky]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I can see why characters like Wurt would need planar though.. her entire character design is building a Merm army, so when that becomes less effective, she just becomes Wilson 2.0

Also Wanda and Walter. Wandas Alarming Clock becomes ineffective VS planar Entities, and same with Walters kit.

[Mike23Ua]

Just now, SSneaky said:

Also Wanda and Walter. Wandas Alarming Clock becomes ineffective VS planar Entities, and same with Walters kit.

Wanda is OP anyway so I for one, think Nerfing the heck out of her is quite fair.. Force her to use BS helm and swords for once. 
 

I mean the chick can literally set up her own portal systems, rewind the deaths of herself and all other players- I don’t think she really needs to have a long range high damaging Yo-Yo too.. *shrugs*

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

praised them in the past with things they have done well, even with this arc, however I will not blindly praise something I don't agree with or something that I think is awfully implemented, simple as. Otherwise we get a tf2 2.0 situation where Valve can throw together any slop and everyone congratulates them as if they have done something amazing, even if 95% of the update isn't even made by them.

 

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

I've been patient with the ocean, only got disappointed more and more and it seems like they are finally throwing the white flag over the wall by adding a band-aid fix to seafaring, that being the bootleg getaway gotten from yet another boss.

 

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

It started off terribly with brightshades which still feel like an early-access feature and I'm not talking about the art or animation here

Honestly, the best I can do is hope that klei listen to us and our suggestions and hopefully we can see them implemented into the game. And if they don't, I'll still move on with the game. At the end of the day, I'm still looking foward to new skins, new stories, and anything new in general, even if it's bad in my eyes. That's the best thing we can do!

And honestly, I'm super happy with almost everything they did for the game, even if it's not perfect. That's because I got used to seeing things change before my eyes all the time. So for me I like it. The only real thing you can actually change in this whole world is your own perspective of things.

The things we wanted to say were already said. Now we can only hope and wait.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m okay with skill trees, they feel like character Refreshes part 3.. but they do have one huge problem.

Character Refreshes grant players access to all their perks right out the starting gate (not including time it might take to gather resources)

But Skill Trees Require earning Insight points over long periods of time, which then permanently makes your character more powerful.

Unless of course your not good enough at the game to unlock Lunar/Shadow Affinities and THEN your Skill trees look a bit like this.

Spoiler

 

[somethin]

I just can't with you people. Planar is literally armor/armor piercing with wonky math. Many game with damage formulas have this. What is so hard to think and complain about?

As for skill tree, shortening the unlock time would be much better for everyone. That's my only suggestion.

[Just Ragnar]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m okay with skill trees, they feel like character Refreshes part 3.. but they do have one huge problem.

Character Refreshes grant players access to all their perks right out the starting gate (not including time it might take to gather resources)

But Skill Trees Require earning Insight points over long periods of time, which then permanently makes your character more powerful.

Unless of course your not good enough at the game to unlock Lunar/Shadow Affinities and THEN your Skill trees look a bit like this.

  Hide contents

 

why not invest in wilson alchemy instead of torch? 

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, ShyRasan123 said:

why not invest in wilson alchemy instead of torch? 

Honestly it just depends on player playstyle preferences, I actually enjoy having the torch toss ability, and they can effectively replace needing to use a lantern, I don’t personally have much use for the Transmutation stuff because I play DST Alone, and don’t actually need to share resources with other players so everything I could need i can just go out and obtain.

I honestly wasn’t impressed with Wilson’s skill tree being honest about it. Compared to other characters skill trees, it’s clear to me Wilson got shafted.

[Just Ragnar]

30 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Honestly it just depends on player playstyle preferences, I actually enjoy having the torch toss ability, and they can effectively replace needing to use a lantern, I don’t personally have much use for the Transmutation stuff because I play DST Alone, and don’t actually need to share resources with other players so everything I could need i can just go out and obtain.

I honestly wasn’t impressed with Wilson’s skill tree being honest about it. Compared to other characters skill trees, it’s clear to me Wilson got shafted.

Probably because his skill tree was the first skill tree, and he was scammed out of a rework to get one.