I don't know a nice way of saying this... Shouldn't we WANT to do new content?

[Ryusuta]

I'm honestly not sure what's been with this current design philosophy of getting the player to work hard and earn a way to make the game more annoying to deal with.

Deadly Brightshades constantly all over the damned place in order to artificially give a reason for the equipment you make from them... And now we have acid rain, designed to artificially give a reason to make the new umbrella.

Like... the new stuff looks fancy and stuff, but shouldn't we have a reason to want all this new stuff other than the ad hoc reasons invented to use them on?

What about making equipment to help with stuff that already exists? Maybe have the cowl or umbrella prevent Charlie from attacking at full dark, perhaps? I mean, why not... You're already past the current final boss at that point. It's not like you're breaking the game by doing that.

Or hey! You've shown Wilson wearing armor with a backpack multiple times in the artwork. What if we gave a way to do that (without mods)? A real incentive that handles a problem that already exists.

All of this "Let's invent damage types to make new weapons seem more useful than they are" stuff is getting ridiculous.

[Mike23Ua]

Actually… Acid Rain would probably be more well received if instead of adding it to already existing areas of the game you’ve traveled through a hundred million times before… it was Instead used as a way of preventing you from exploring a Brand New Area 

Picture Lunar Island if you will but to explore the new Land “Lunacy” is Replaced with Acid Rain.

They could’ve probably made some really Really da** cool dense Amazonian Rain Forest biome full of new mobs and resources and similar to needing a Gas Mask in the Hamlet DLC to traverse the Poisoned Jungles- This Acid protective Umbrella would be required to explore this area.

Instead it just feels like “Congratulations.. you beat this end game boss now enjoy New Game + where we Add Uncompromising Mod Features!”

If this is Klei’s “End Game” I personally would’ve preferred them not waste the development resources they’ve put into Return of Them or this Taking Root arc, and would’ve instead just made Shipwrecked and Hamlet compatible with DST..

I hate to sound this criticizing but just look at how unhappy 80% of the player base is with the status of Ocean content, or how this new “end game” stuff is working out.

I want to have faith in Klei that there’s a huge bigger picture incoming.. but it’s hard not to be concerned.

[Arcwell]

I really do think (or at least hope) Klei will address this in a future update, and that this whole system is just incomplete right now.

Compare rifts to moonstorms. I doubt many people would willingly activate moonstorms if Celestial Champion didn't exist, but since it does, they're totally fine because you get a big reward at the end and crucially, get to turn them off.

In the current patch, you can't turn off rifts once you start them unless you change world settings. It feels awful, to me at least. If we get a mechanic similar to Celestial Champion (which I suspect we will in the coming months), I would gladly activate rifts for the payoff at the end.

[Zeklo]

I'm honestly getting pretty tired of people tossing around the word artificial.
Winter is just as 'artificial' in relation to winter gear.

One exists for the other, that's just how these things work. It's a statement that means basically nothing.

That particular irritation aside, I agree. Putting aside what may or may not come in the future, the current loop with the new content is entirely self serving and exists solely to partake in itself. Supposedly it'll be remedied in the future, but for now it's just content to play for content sake.

[Cassielu]

To be honest, I'd like the rift will never turn off, but adding more new ways to make it easier for players to fight them, just like how we fight the seasons and hounds. After all, this is an endgame update, and if the final solution to a new threat is turn new threat off, then endgame is nothing change at all.

For example, maybe we could get a sachet or fertilizer or something that would make brightshade neutral to us and other mobs. So we can just let it grow in our base  without having to worry about anything.

[Ryusuta]

43 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm honestly getting pretty tired of people tossing around the word artificial.
Winter is just as 'artificial' in relation to winter gear.

One exists for the other, that's just how these things work. It's a statement that means basically nothing.

That particular irritation aside, I agree. Putting aside what may or may not come in the future, the current loop with the new content is entirely self serving and exists solely to partake in itself. Supposedly it'll be remedied in the future, but for now it's just content to play for content sake.

Then mentally replace it with the words "ad hoc" in this context if you don't like the phrasing.

[bloopah]

I've been looking at this update chain like having hardmode from Terraria be seperated for the surface and underground.

However, in Terraria, if you can beat the Wall of Flesh you can (relatively, based on world difficulty) easily survive early hardmode, until you get the gear required to actually thrive in it and even kill the bosses there. But Klei's philosophy for a "hardmode" is to struggle with mid-game weapons against foes far stronger than you until you obtain stuff, with its strength being comparable to Terraria's late pre-hardmode. The problem being mentioned everywhere that Klei is making us work hard for pain wouldn't have to be one if they would give us viable options to deal with the pain that are present before having to have it go at us with full force first, or not further punish the use of previously established "problem solvers".

[Creatorofswamps]

2 hours ago, Cassielu said:

To be honest, I'd like the rift will never turn off, but adding more new ways to make it easier for players to fight them, just like how we fight the seasons and hounds. After all, this is an endgame update, and if the final solution to a new threat is turn new threat off, then endgame is nothing change at all.

For example, maybe we could get a sachet or fertilizer or something that would make brightshade neutral to us and other mobs. So we can just let it grow in our base  without having to worry about anything

I have a suggestion, what if we collect this black fog from the cracks and combine it with a copmost or glomer mucus to make a shadow fertilizer that will scare off deadly bright plants?

[Theukon-dos]

2 hours ago, Zeklo said:

I'm honestly getting pretty tired of people tossing around the word artificial.
Winter is just as 'artificial' in relation to winter gear.

One exists for the other, that's just how these things work. It's a statement that means basically nothing.

That particular irritation aside, I agree. Putting aside what may or may not come in the future, the current loop with the new content is entirely self serving and exists solely to partake in itself. Supposedly it'll be remedied in the future, but for now it's just content to play for content sake.

The difference between Winter and the rifts is that the changing of seasons is inevitable, not optional. Yes, winter gear exists to deal with winter itself. But you can't just ignore it either. Winter will come whether or not you're ready for it, so if you don't have the gear, then you're going to have a very bad time. But, as you said, the rift's content loop is entirely self-serving. Most of the content it adds (Planar weapons and armor; shadow umbrella) exist only to make dealing with the rifts easier. But because starting the rifts is entirely optional, the best way to deal with them becomes not to interact at all. 

 

Thing is though, I don't think this philosophy is actually all that recent. Because it's the same problem that's been plaguing the ocean for the last 3 years. The main reward for dealing with the ocean is solving the challenges the ocean provides, with very little benefit towards the main gameplay loop. So like with rifts, the best way to deal with the ocean's challenges is to not interact with it at all. The same best strategies, the same best equipment, the same best ect. from before the ocean was added are still the best to this day. They tried to make it not the best by introducing planar mechanics, but because nothing other than the rift spawns interact with said mechanics, and that said mechanics have no bearing on pre-rift mechanics other than making several characters notable worse as of now(Wigfrid, Wendy, Wolfgang, Wanda, Walter), Dark Swords and the like are still on top.

[hhh2]

3 hours ago, Ryusuta said:

Then mentally replace it with the words "ad hoc" in this context if you don't like the phrasing.

Stop abusing all my favorite words. Or at least take them out to dinner first.

I'm thinking this is all just the awkward phase of moving the game from it's original idea of survival game to some strange hybrid of adventure and survival game. Klei just needs to do a little bit of refinement, and everything will be just. At least that's what I'm thinking and hoping. And it is certainly needed for DST to stay fresh and break into the other genres markets. Going mainstream is the way of the future.

[D_Good_Fellow]

39 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

The difference between Winter and the rifts is that the changing of seasons is inevitable, not optional. Yes, winter gear exists to deal with winter itself. But you can't just ignore it either. Winter will come whether or not you're ready for it, so if you don't have the gear, then you're going to have a very bad time. But, as you said, the rift's content loop is entirely self-serving. Most of the content it adds (Planar weapons and armor; shadow umbrella) exist only to make dealing with the rifts easier. But because starting the rifts is entirely optional, the best way to deal with them becomes not to interact at all. 

I think the other distinction is that winter-based features have much more synergy with non-winter features of the game.

Collecting logs, stone, twigs, and flit are already basic tasks players do during the fall, so ramping it up towards the end to prepare fuel and thermal stones fits very naturally into gameplay. Silk and beefalo are already handy to have around, so collecting more silk/wool for a winter hat is a natural extension of playing in fall as well. Additionally the hardships of winter specifically provides rewards for non-winter play. Deerclops eyes helps deal with spring while the walking cane is obviously useful all year round.  I feel like if lunar rifts, shadow rifts, or even the ocean had more synergy in this way we'd have a lot less problems and complaints.

Caves/ruins handle this better too, which might be more analogous since they are more optional than seasons. Stuff like the magniluminescence obviously help with cave exploration, but they're pretty damn useful for other parts of the game as well. There is a very natural in-game incentive to leave your comfort zone and explore the ruins that lunar rifts, shadow rifts, and the ocean seem to lack.

[Szczuku]

4 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Winter is just as 'artificial' in relation to winter gear.

To be fair:

1) You can prepare for winter before it arrives

2) There are multiple ways of dealing with, for example, cold.

3) Stuff you can get during Winter is useful all-year-round

4) There are no destructive mechanics

5) The season as a whole is fun to play through. The challenges are fair and mix the gameplay up.

New stuff lacks basically all of it. Your only form of preparation prior to starting the rifts is getting dreadstone armor. There are only 2 ways of dealing with the global threats that rifts throw at you. Fight Brightshades and equip the Umbralla. That or turn rifts off. New crafts have barely any uses outside of rifts since the major focus is put on the armor and weapon, which against normal mobs are just reskinned thulecite. Sure, smasher is probably great during ruins clearing... but I'd still carry flint and gold around 'just in case' which means that husks and brilliance actually leave me with less inventory space than if I were using pickaxe and hammer. The staff has a minor use against Fuelweaver and moonstorms. And the new scythe can harvest stuff faster... but once you get it you're at a point where you no longer need to worry about 'wasting' time on harvesting anyway. Both shadow and lunar rifts actively take away from the natural beauty of dst worlds by uprooting stuff or causing unnecessary boulders. And last but not least... at their current stage they are just not that fun. I mean, I like the optional mini-boss approach to the shadow side of the rifts as opposed to the lunar's swarm of plants invading your builds. And sure, benefit of the doubt to the devs, but still, knowing Klei and seeing 'how much' stuff like the Lunar Island or ocean has changed throughout the years... I'm not hopeful for these rifts. The stuff that we see now is probably more-or-less what they'll remain like for the forseeable future.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

The difference between Winter and the rifts is that the changing of seasons is inevitable, not optional. Yes, winter gear exists to deal with winter itself. But you can't just ignore it either. Winter will come whether or not you're ready for it, so if you don't have the gear, then you're going to have a very bad time. But, as you said, the rift's content loop is entirely self-serving. Most of the content it adds (Planar weapons and armor; shadow umbrella) exist only to make dealing with the rifts easier. But because starting the rifts is entirely optional, the best way to deal with them becomes not to interact at all. 

 

Thing is though, I don't think this philosophy is actually all that recent. Because it's the same problem that's been plaguing the ocean for the last 3 years. The main reward for dealing with the ocean is solving the challenges the ocean provides, with very little benefit towards the main gameplay loop. So like with rifts, the best way to deal with the ocean's challenges is to not interact with it at all. The same best strategies, the same best equipment, the same best ect. from before the ocean was added are still the best to this day. They tried to make it not the best by introducing planar mechanics, but because nothing other than the rift spawns interact with said mechanics, and that said mechanics have no bearing on pre-rift mechanics other than making several characters notable worse as of now(Wigfrid, Wendy, Wolfgang, Wanda, Walter), Dark Swords and the like are still on top.

The problem really comes down to if any of the new stuff wasn't optional there would be some massive outrage both in and outside of the forums because now instead of being able to choose to go outside of their comfort zones they'd be forced to. It feels like one issue for dst is that it's kinda in a state where people feel the game is complete hence people saying content should go wild with the rewards post cc and fw because we've basically "finished" the game despite not knowing how much further Kiel will or won't want to take things from here. 

[goatt]

I think acid rain should be limited to areas near shadow rift, like lunacy near lunar rifts.

[_zwb]

The devs be like: well yes but actually no.

Seriously though, this beta is so far quite grindy rather than fun to play, hope they fix it and never do this again

[Capybara007]

if the new armor and weapons had some fun gimmick like with ecrown or barmor the reward would be so mich more fun

[Theukon-dos]

41 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem really comes down to if any of the new stuff wasn't optional there would be some massive outrage both in and outside of the forums because now instead of being able to choose to go outside of their comfort zones they'd be forced to.

I don't think that's fair, because it assumes that the space puts ode theor comfort zone is well designed. And I've not the time to be a broken record, but if you look at the general consensus on rifts, it's almost unanimously frustration and spite. So this would be like someone looking outside their comfort zone and seeing miles of rusty Caltrops.

41 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It feels like one issue for dst is that it's kinda in a state where people feel the game is complete hence people saying content should go wild with the rewards post cc and fw because we've basically "finished" the game despite not knowing how much further Kiel will or won't want to take things from here. 

Thing is, I feel like the game itself supports that view point. Again, no time to be a broken record, but the vast majority of updates over the last few years have felt tacked on rather than part of.

 

Just look at Reign of Giants. Tons of new challenges, items, and biomes that quickly became the definitive Don't Starve experience. To the point that RoG is just the default in DST. I'm not saying that DST is "complete", but the game really needs some fundamental changes to make more room for all these updates.

[D_Good_Fellow]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

4) There are no destructive mechanics

As a whole I agree with your post but I feel inclined to point out that Deerclops is the OG destructive mechanic.

Of course Deerclops is a very fair destructive mechanic in that there are multiple ways to both avoid and counter it. Deerclops never feels punishing because the methods of handling it are both learnable and achievable. The rewards for Deerclops also do more than just make your next Deerclops fight easier. Deerclops also serves other purpose than just being destructive, such as guiding it to clear areas or fight other mobs.

I haven't personally dealt with any post-CC stuff, but imo these invasive mechanics should be balanced similarly.

[Vinja]

50 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem really comes down to if any of the new stuff wasn't optional there would be some massive outrage both in and outside of the forums because now instead of being able to choose to go outside of their comfort zones they'd be forced to. It feels like one issue for dst is that it's kinda in a state where people feel the game is complete hence people saying content should go wild with the rewards post cc and fw because we've basically "finished" the game despite not knowing how much further Kiel will or won't want to take things from here. 

Idk about “go wild” with the rewards but a new tier of weapons that aren’t neutered on everything but the brand new content would be cool. I think the planar damage and defense was something cool to test and try out and was worth looking into but it’s just not a great addition in practice in my opinion. 

[GenomeSquirrel]

I never understood what motivates players to max friendship Pearl, fight crab king, build a second lunar alter with farther away pieces that doesn’t even have new stuff. Seems like a miserable chain of busy work, I have more enjoyable ways to spend my time.

Reviving weaver seems like fools asking for trouble. I’m still baffled they are basing plot off of it, without giving a reason to assemble it, and it’s existence is really only shown on YouTube.

The update is definitely not aimed at me, I’m glad I can passively avoid it at present, but might feel some form of regret should Klei make something other than a simple spear, umbrella, or ax variant.

[Theukon-dos]

14 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I never understood what motivates players to max friendship Pearl, fight crab king, build a second lunar alter with farther away pieces that doesn’t even have new stuff. Seems like a miserable chain of busy work, I have more enjoyable ways to spend my time.

Reviving weaver seems like fools asking for trouble. I’m still baffled they are basing plot off of it, without giving a reason to assemble it, and it’s existence is really only shown on YouTube.

The update is definitely not aimed at me, I’m glad I can passively avoid it at present, but might feel some form of regret should Klei make something other than a simple spear, umbrella, or ax variant.

Crab King and Celestial Champion sure are bosses that exist, I admit. But Ancient Fuelweaver is a great thing to fight without the rifts. Bone helm for fuel farming, Bone armor is insanely strong, and ofcourse it resets the ruins, which means all that delicious ancient gear is fully renewable.

[GenomeSquirrel]

4 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Crab King and Celestial Champion sure are bosses that exist, I admit. But Ancient Fuelweaver is a great thing to fight without the rifts. Bone helm for fuel farming, Bone armor is insanely strong, and ofcourse it resets the ruins, which means all that delicious ancient gear is fully renewable.

My motivation is building a base with other players, while the hat is nice, it doesn’t grant me more joy than a helmet. I like farms, structures, and mobs.

[cybers2001]

15 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

My motivation is building a base with other players, while the hat is nice, it doesn’t grant me more joy than a helmet. I like farms, structures, and mobs.

Celestial Crown is the ultimate "base build and chill" hat.

[Well-met]

There was a demand for more end game content and that's exactly what they're delivering.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

I don't think that's fair, because it assumes that the space puts ode theor comfort zone is well designed. And I've not the time to be a broken record, but if you look at the general consensus on rifts, it's almost unanimously frustration and spite. So this would be like someone looking outside their comfort zone and seeing miles of rusty Caltrops.

I don't know about that I feel like it's more mixed than one sided from what I've seen with a bigger dash of more vocal people on both sides that might make borh sides seem more inflated. Yea there's a fair bit to not like and like but I don't think large majority hates everything involved in these updates.

 

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Thing is, I feel like the game itself supports that view point. Again, no time to be a broken record, but the vast majority of updates over the last few years have felt tacked on rather than part of.

 

Just look at Reign of Giants. Tons of new challenges, items, and biomes that quickly became the definitive Don't Starve experience. To the point that RoG is just the default in DST. I'm not saying that DST is "complete", but the game really needs some fundamental changes to make more room for all these updates.

I feel like it's pretty clear it feeling tacked on wasn't intended for the ocean. And that these updates regardless of how they end up are supposed to set the stage for said shake up. But when you consider the feedback that's gone into fixing this current content it kind of makes sense why they started with the end game instead of the early game in a sense this could also be a stress test for what's acceptable in the early game since we are supposed to be getting content for that as well. Either way we shouldn't expect the content to be perfect out the gate.