Do you believe rollback is cheating?

[YottaCat]

I had this conversation earlier and I wanted to know more opinions on the topic. Do you consider rollbacking cheating?

Let's say you die due to some dumb mistake, it was your fault, but still a mistake. Or maybe your base got burnt down. Or perhaps a smaller mistake, like you came to a boss battle and forgot to craft something essential? Either way the scenario was some mistake that with some knowledge it could've been prevented, and you rollbacked out of frustration. Would you consider rollbacking cheating in that situation? 

[Dextops]

I am stuck between I don't care if you use it, and you should never use it. If you are a newer player you should absolutely never use it or you'll just develop a crutch on it and I feel you will get less playtime/enjoyment out of the game, but if you're already experienced and went through the motions i don't care, buuuuuuuuuut if you are someone who thinks don't starve together is too easy yet rolls back on mistakes, my brother in Christ you need to think about that for a sec. 

(also whoever was in that conversation you were having must've been smart)

[Frashaw27]

I do think context does matter here tbh about why your rolling back. I remember distinctly, years ago, I was playing Maxwell and got between the edge and one of the rock pillars. There was no way to move out and with no lazy explorer, I had no way out. So I rolled back. While I personally don't care if someone uses them like a mistake remover, the reason why you're doing it is a big part of how justified it was. I just feel that using it to fix being screwed over by a bug is more justifiable than reverting a clearly avoidable death.

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, Frashaw27 said:

I do think context does matter here tbh about why your rolling back. I remember distinctly, years ago, I was playing Maxwell and got between the edge and one of the rock pillars. There was no way to move out and with no lazy explorer, I had no way out. So I rolled back. While I personally don't care if someone uses them like a mistake remover, the reason why you're doing it is a big part of how justified it was. I just feel that using it to fix being screwed over by a bug is more justifiable than reverting a clearly avoidable death.

I was a part of the convo he is talking about. Context is using it to cheat death

[Mr Giggio]

I think it really depends. Things can be situational here, like yesterday i was watchin a old video from a friend of mine when she got yawned by bearger and slash to death... in auttum. it was a bug probably or idk.

 

when it is like real lag related or when a grief just put ur base on fire it is worth it and valid.

[YottaCat]

I will

24 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

I do think context does matter here tbh about why your rolling back. I remember distinctly, years ago, I was playing Maxwell and got between the edge and one of the rock pillars. There was no way to move out and with no lazy explorer, I had no way out. So I rolled back. While I personally don't care if someone uses them like a mistake remover, the reason why you're doing it is a big part of how justified it was. I just feel that using it to fix being screwed over by a bug is more justifiable than reverting a clearly avoidable death.

I will add more context

Updated it

[IIHexxyII]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

I am stuck between I don't care if you use it, and you should never use it. If you are a newer player you should absolutely never use it or you'll just develop a crutch on it and I feel you will get less playtime/enjoyment out of the game, but if you're already experienced and went through the motions i don't care, buuuuuuuuuut if you are someone who thinks don't starve together is too easy yet rolls back on mistakes, my brother in Christ you need to think about that for a sec. 

(also whoever was in that conversation you were having must've been smart)

rare smart dextops moment

[SecretPizzaMan]

I'll sum it up the best I can for those who don't want to go through a incoherent rant.

Who cares? I don't.

 

Now for those that want the rant.

Spoiler

If you are new, it's best to avoid rollbacks. I remember it was a noob trap for me and I weren't really getting that much better during those times.

But honestly idc how you play the game in solo. Do what is fun. If you really want a true uncompromising experience, just don't use rollback. Or you know, customize the world settings.

If it's multiplayer, please ask others first if they are okay with it. It wouldn't be fun if you just rollback all my progress because Wes got 1 shot by deerclops.

 

[Yuuko]

Personally - I feel very guilty when I use a rollback to save a run.  I do it a lot to practice things, but if I do it in a run to maybe practice the thing I failed doing I'll delete the run afterwords.  That's for me solo, in groups I generally give mild resistance to roll backs but I'm okay if ppl do.

I don't consider them cheating b/c really that's kinda the point, they are your save files.  When I play an rpg or something those save points are the life line.  I'm not going to restart a game just b/c I died.  If someone wants to play DST that way that is entirely up to them and their group.  Especially on console I'd suggest ppl feel free to use it b/c they can't use console commands to set up practice situations either.

Edit - Contrary to what other ppl have said, I would encourage new players to use rollbacks a lot.  Deerclops just spawned on you and you weren't able to fend it off?  Roll back and try again.  Keep trying.  Feel free to mess up, get experimental, and even if you *succeed* at the task roll back again and try another go.  Practice.  This game requires a lot of knowledge and understanding that you won't develop if you just take the L from something like a boss or a late game hound wave every time.  Just make sure your focus is on learning and improving, and recognize that learning and improving on recovering from death is also important (so note what things could help you recover next time - like pre-crafting a fire and indo pit, opening up more cave entrances to duck into, get used to torching trees, OH YEAH - and actually crafting res items lol)

[Sir Pemberton]

Rollback is fine and by no means a cheat, I now only use it if something out of my control happens such as a bug or server lag, or if playing with others, a griefer.

I think it's fine even if a player is new to help them learn the game or just get more enjoyment out of the game. When I started DST, I didn't know a lot about the game and hated restarting from day one just to redo everything I did over again since it took so long, so I just rolled back, retained the knowledge of don't-do/prepare-for "X" again, and kept enjoying the game. 

[Cheggf]

It clearly is cheating and anyone who says otherwise is coping. People can cheat if they want to on their own server, I don't care at all, but it is a little obnoxious when I lose 8+ minutes of progress because someone died and doesn't want to be better prepared or wait a few minutes for a revive, or deerclops smashed a single empty birdcage and placing it back down is simply out of the question.

[dubious little]

I personally use a mod which removes rollbacks after death, so for example someone griefs we can rollback, but someone dies we have to revive them. Obviously it won't ever be flawless but I've never had any major issues with it.

[Ornge]

Its a sandbox game, who cares what you do. 

I believe there is nothing wrong with rollbacking on a solo world, since its your world your rules. If you want to use it then use it, if you don't then don't. It's not going to affect someone else's experience of the game so it shouldn't matter what you do on your world.

On the other hand if your playing with other people NEVER roll back unless the entire server agrees with it. If you die in a server with other players your better off getting someone to revive you rather than losing the last day of progress because someone died to a pigman

[W0l0l0]

I play by myself so who cares hehe. 

[Pig Princess]

I think it depends.

If one is new and just learns the game, rollback helps a lot: it allows to see more content and take it into account for next runs (like preparing for spring since autumn/winter, coming up with general summer plan, preparing enough resources for bosses, etc.), try again after spending much less time compared to restart, as well as exclude random stuff like Bearger yawning in autumn or 3 rocks killing player while one was on loading screen upon entering caves. Even if one rollbacks after little mistakes, it still takes a while to rejoin the world and redo things from previous save point, so players are naturally insentivised to avoid rollbacks and not use it like a crutch. Moreover, rollback won't save player from poor strategy and player still can be stuck in death loop, in which case player can just delete world manually.

On the other hand, if one uses rollbacks to save time in speedrun or pick the best strategy for this particular case in speedrun/rush/general skill showcase, it invalidates it in my eyes, unless it was specifically stated that it's seeded run and optimised accordingly. For example, if one tries to rush ruins and uses rollback to find totally normal tree as soon as possible, that means player couldn't adapt to semi-random map generation; if one rushes lunar island as Woodie and uses rollback to find spiders on day 1, one might as well reveal map and "find" lunar island on day 1 "consistently"; if one uses rollback to not craft this miner hat because player knows they will find it in set piece 2 minutes later due to rollback, again, it's worthless strategy that can't be reproduced normally/in multiplayer; if player doesn't craft poison protection in Hamlet because due to Alt+F4 one knows aporcalypse ruins are close and in this particular direction... In all these cases such showcase looks more like a crutch, not skill or strategy, especially because of question "what would player do without future knowledge/during normal playthrough".

In multiplayer I don't mind rolling back and often support it/start a vote even if situation is not desperate, so everyone can progress faster. For example, if I'm fighting shadow pieces and Twins spawned on me/random huge lag happened and killed me, I will start a vote so everyone - me incuded - won't need to wait another 20 days to kill Fuelweaver; if I die in the ruins with 10 green gems dropping on the ground I will ask for rollback so random earthquake/snurtle doesn't destroy common resource (I wouldn't rollback solo world); if my boat base sinks due to me accidently hitting seaweeds in the middle of nowhere I will ask for rollback, so people can fight pearled Crab King and Celestial Champion instead of Pearl's pearl being forever lost (because I would rage quit for sure otherwise). That being said, I will refuse to rollback only if I'm in the caves and during last save I was in dangerous situation, and reason for rollback being easily solvable without it, but only because players join caves with delay in this case (wouldn't be cool to join monkey biome in the middle of nightmare phase that otherwise would be warn phase) and free hitting time for enemies while player is on loading screen.

[Flip Face]

I replied "Yes, but I don't mind if you rollback or not"

Personally, I would just stop considering it cheating. If revert option appears next to the option to reset the world when everyone dies.

Spoiler

But there's no way to escape death, after reversing once, you will constantly die to unusual things and end up reversing more and more until you actually reverse your death.

After that you will be reversed so much that you will have spoiled the immersion of the game.

 

45 minutes ago, dubious little said:

I personally use a mod which removes rollbacks after death, so for example someone griefs we can rollback, but someone dies we have to revive them. Obviously it won't ever be flawless but I've never had any major issues with it.

It would be nice to block rollback in world settings.

[Masked Koopa]

I think it's funny that people seem to think that dying in of itself isn't punishing, you need to be further inconvenienced, when there are many games out there known for being difficult that nonetheless allow save files that can be loaded to try, try again. As far as I see it rollbacks allow you to improve your skills by focusing on the things you're dying to so you'll make those mistakes less often in the future, as opposed to trying the entire game all over again. 

[Capybara007]

yeah rollback is cheating but realistically its fine if you use it

[VouMorrer]

i have one specific world i play alone and im trying to kill every boss. in that one server i rollback every time i die because when i am remaking my steps i learn to get better.

that is how you learn in real life. do it, fail, realise what you made wrong and do it again without the error.

but i agree that it shouldnt be used when you are in multiplayer because no one have anything to do with your mistakes.

except griefing. i rollback when someone burns the base.

[reallychina]

Rollback is essential when learning the game. There is no reason to waste dozens of hours because of some mechanic you were unaware of.

Once you learn you should not be rolling back. Take precautions, res points with light, thermals, armor, effigies, have a prefabed effigy etc. Game offers plenty of revive options

[Waynel]

I am well aware that rollback is evil and that it should be avoided, but the rollback command being always at hand i face a temptation i can hardly withstand.. and God knows how much of a sinner I am

[ALCRD]

I rolled back so many times I'm pretty sure I broke the space time continuum.

Edit:

Actually for real on my Wormwood world for some reason rollbacking while in caves instantly crashes the shard. Only this world it happens to and caves themselve work fine otherwise on this world.. weird huh?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Masked Koopa said:

I think it's funny that people seem to think that dying in of itself isn't punishing, you need to be further inconvenienced, when there are many games out there known for being difficult that nonetheless allow save files that can be loaded to try, try again

but also there are games that have permadeath as main mechanic like rogelike and rogelite games, DS started as a rogelite survival game since each time you died you progress to unlock new characters, you obtain new knowledge to survive futher and you have random maps that might help you to survive with their set pieces or composition

now a lot of set pieces were removed plus we have more content than just surviving 4 seasons plus the focus on basebuilding so makes sense to have a "save" mechanic like old rpgs with their save points before a boss fight. Would be a nightmere to learn how to fight bosses like FW in an intended way but also, the core mechanic of the franchise always has been "random generated worlds that wanna kill you forever"

at the end, play the way you enjoy that might also change over time so there are always time to experience the game in different ways

personally i do rollback is something really annoying that doesnt affect the survival happens like losing a big build because of fire, im wont lose if i keep that building burned since doesnt affect my survival but also might be boring to rebuilt it if was an expensive or big build. Also i did rollbacks to learn the ANR bosses until i got confortable enough to dont need them

[Dextops]

9 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Edit - Contrary to what other ppl have said, I would encourage new players to use rollbacks a lot.  Deerclops just spawned on you and you weren't able to fend it off?  Roll back and try again.  Keep trying.  Feel free to mess up, get experimental, and even if you *succeed* at the task roll back again and try another go.  Practice.  This game requires a lot of knowledge and understanding that you won't develop if you just take the L from something like a boss or a late game hound wave every time.  Just make sure your focus is on learning and improving, and recognize that learning and improving on recovering from death is also important (so note what things could help you recover next time - like pre-crafting a fire and indo pit, opening up more cave entrances to duck into, get used to torching trees, OH YEAH - and actually crafting res items lol)

i disagree

if i was a noob and found out that rollbacks were a thing i would've stopped playing the game way faster thinking i'd had mastered everything when i didn't. While i had around 100 hours in the game i did exactly that and stopped playing for a little bit thinking i had mastered the game. Then i tried no rolling back and i realized the hard truth. "goddamn i suck". So there is my sad anime backstory on why i don't rollback

also i think a lot of people are misinterpreting what he is saying. first off he is saying in the context of you died or did a mistake so you decide to rollback. Also it isn't about if you do it or not you can still do it and consider it cheating or not do it and consider it not cheating

[Juny Pear]

I personally don't consider it cheating under a few circumstances:

1. You got caught offguard by something you couldn't see coming and don't want to lose literal hours of progress.
2. You and everybody you're playing with agrees that it is fine.
3. You're not pretending as if you have done some sort of monumental task without the rollback (This is one I also feel for mods especially, acknowledge you use them but don't entirely shy away from them for the sake of being a gamer).
4. You use the opportunity to learn from whatever caused you to rollback.
5. When you do use them, you use them not to chase an arbitrary goal, but because you want to keep having fun.

Kinda the same stance I hold on savestates actually. Just so long as you're using them for the sake of your own enjoyment of the game and acknowledge you are indeed using something that some will consider an advantage compared to other people who don't use it, I don't personally think it's really fair to call them cheating. I will go ahead and say it absolutely is if there is some sort of competition or if you're boasting your achievements you could only pull off because of it, that is not cool, but other wise it only affects your own gameplay so I think it's only fair people get to decide how to play without being called cheaters.

Either way I feel people usually put a way bigger emphasis on whether things like these are cheating compared to just letting people play the game the way they enjoy it. There's probably a bigger discussion to be had about all of this, but I'm not too sure if that would really fit for this thread.