Should wanda be nerfed?

[abrocator]

9 minutes ago, Ohan said:

But that’s the problem. Combat cant be her thing if she also has all her teleportation gimmicks which are much more unique and rare in the game than combat. Combat is Wolf’s, wigfrid’s, Wendy’s thing, characters who all have very little else going on besides combat perks. That is not the case at all with Wanda

1. Wigfrid: good damage output, top-tier tank, helm maker, combat aura giver
2. Wolfgang: top-tier damage output, OK tank
3. Wanda: top-tier damage output, can’t tank, teleportation

All of these characters have their niche.  They don’t overlap too much.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

are you only comparing complete end game status?  Because getting there is part of her game play...

im just saying that having taffy as a very complete food isnt fun for me, nothing else. Same reason i dont play wigfrid even if i love her thematic, i get bored in long runs if i dont need task like farming sanity and healing food

as i said before, im not trully talking about balance, im just sharing my thoughs and taste about wanda. In fact i think that wanda, wendy, warly and wormwood are the best desinged characters even if i wouldnt use the same numbers in some of them if i could chose

[HowlVoid]

Not surprised to see some of the same people who wanted to nerf Wolfgang now have a problem with Wanda.

Wanda's utilities are just that, utilities. To argue in favor of removing her alarming clock because It's ToO oP but also seeing these people not argue against Wolfgang's 2x damage that is now more reliable than ever is causing me mental anguish. Neither of them are an issue.

Wolfgang does 2x damage and has virtually no downsides.

Wanda deals about Darkswords damage and needs night armor to not get one shotted. She needs reeds and higher amount of nightmare fuel for her weapon and armor. Her healing is also limited to how many watches she has on her. In order for her to compete in terms of damage with Wolfgang she needs to be near critical at all time. The only time this is irrelevant is if you have a lot of skill with kiting. The range doesn't matter if you weren't going to get hit anyways. 

The problem isn't Wanda, it's that other characters don't have the same level of depth as her. They lack utility or synergy within their own perks. 

[Ohan]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Except combat IS her thing.  Accept it, or you're not arguing from a place of honesty.  She is a glass cannon character, all of the teleportation is the fluff, not the core perk.

This thread is about wether Wanda should be nerfed and if yes in what way. 
My opinion is precisely that she should not have gotten the best weapon in the game on top of all her super unique and fun teleportation and age/shadow magic stuff. 

How is that dishonest? Why do I need to accept it if it is what I would change in answer to the question of this thread? 

its like Arubaro said, they used to many good ideas on 1 character. 
 

you can enjoy ur alarming clock as much as u want though I’m not gonna take it away from u and klei sure as hell isn’t either 

[Well-met]

she's fine 

if you absolutely want a change then you could adjust the flail damage

[HowlVoid]

33 minutes ago, Ohan said:

This thread is about wether Wanda should be nerfed and if yes in what way. 
My opinion is precisely that she should not have gotten the best weapon in the game on top of all her super unique and fun teleportation and age/shadow magic stuff. 

That's what I would call a complete character, how many characters do we feel are not complete? Wurt? Winona? 

I'm not understanding this game of taking two steps forward and one back.

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How is that dishonest? Why do I need to accept it if it is what I would change in answer to the question of this thread? 

its like Arubaro said, they used to many good ideas on 1 character. 

That's as good an argument as saying the car manufacturer made my car too crash proof.

 

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you can enjoy ur alarming clock as much as u want though I’m not gonna take it away from u and klei sure as hell isn’t either 

Just setting the record straight make sure there isn't false information going around. This is the kind of misinformation I want to stop before it goes rampant. Next thing you know Klei is nerfing On Tentacles because ToO oP.

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, abrocator said:

1. Wigfrid: good damage output, top-tier tank, helm maker, combat aura giver
2. Wolfgang: top-tier damage output, OK tank
3. Wanda: top-tier damage output, can’t tank, teleportation

All of these characters have their niche.  They don’t overlap too much.

Where did I say they overlapped? 
 

You just put into words how wolf and wig indeed have nothing else going on besides combat and Wanda does. And not just anything but teleportation. 
 

she shouldn’t have top tier damage that is dealt by a unique ranged weapon AND unrivaled utility in the form of teleportation. 

[HowlVoid]

21 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Where did I say they overlapped? 
 

You just put into words how wolf and wig indeed having nothing else going on besides combat and Wanda does. And not just anything but teleportation. 
 

Tbh that's more of a problem with Wolf and Wig. 

(Although I think Wig is in a better place than Wolf imo)

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she shouldn’t have top tier damage that is dealt by a unique ranged weapon AND unrivaled utility in the form of teleportation. 

It's not completely ranged, more semi-range or mid range. You usually only ever get one hit at range and the second is within melee.

[Mike23Ua]

Guys stop fighting, be polite & civil yes I want a nerf on Wanda, no I don’t care about her damage output.

What I want this game to do for every character not just Wanda is focus further into who they are as a character, for Wanda it’s all about TIME, Wolfgang it’s Workouts to be Buff, For Wendy it’s Interactions with the Supernatural, Wes it’s creating stuff with his Balloons and having bad luck, Webber Army of loyal & also not so loyal spiders, Wurt it’s expanding her Kingdom into new Territories, They each have a unique identity that needs to be expanded upon.

And if they all played roughly identically.. NO ONE would be Unique nor fun enough to pick a favorite.

[NightfallsCurse]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Guys stop fighting

It's not called fighting, it's called arguing, sometimes it's a good thing, and this time is no different, the argument can't end without somebody winning it somehow

[Ohan]

19 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Tbh that's more of a problem with Wolf and Wig. 

But here’s the thing: I disagree.

21 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

It's not completely ranged, more semi-range or mid range.

This is completely new information. 

[abrocator]

42 minutes ago, Ohan said:

You just put into words how wolf and wig indeed having nothing else going on besides combat and Wanda does. And not just anything but teleportation.

Wolfgang and Wigfrid are combat specialists, yes.  To offset that they also have more combat perks than Wanda. Wanda is all about damage output, and her damage output is basically tied with Wolfgang.  Meanwhile Wolfgang can tank as well.  And Wigfrid has a whopping four combat perks (damage, tanking, helmets (indirect), and auras).

So Wanda is not the best combat character, or even tied with the best.  Wolfgang is still better than her at that.

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she shouldn’t have top tier damage that is dealt by a unique ranged weapon AND unrivaled utility in the form of teleportation. 

Her weapon is irrelevant in this context.  Its purpose is to make her glass cannon style of play viable.  So it doesn’t add anything to the team since what the team cares about is the damage she can dish out, not how she manages to dish it out.  Remember that the DPS is about tied with the dark sword (going by what others have said in this thread).

[Cheggf]

No. The only metric she should be nerfed according to is the Wolfgang rework where apparently being better than Wilson isn't allowed.

[Lil K]

Just buff Wolfgang again and everything Ok. 

[Yuuko]

47 minutes ago, Ohan said:

she shouldn’t have top tier damage that is dealt by a unique ranged weapon AND unrivaled utility in the form of teleportation. 

If I were to ask what "ranged" weapons exist in the game, I doubt tail-o-3cats would be on the list.  Ranged is likely to include all blow darts, boomeranged, slingshot, etc.  Weapons which are actually ranged.  The whip is a melee weapon, it has a longer range but I don't think anyone would classify it as "ranged," especially without any qualifiers.  This is where those exaggerations, and arguing from a point of dishonesty come in.  By classifying her weapon as ranged without any qualifiers its almost like you're trying to grossly exaggerate the quality, equating it with blow darts and boomerangs

The range of the AC is useful, but we had a whole sweeping nerf on hitstun to compensate for it.  She isn't just holding f to beat AFW anymore.  This gives her combat utility that is unique among the combat focused characters - but each character is still unique (although less unique since Wolf got nerfed.)

Right now Wolfgang is the general purpose, ez damage dealer.  Wigfrid is tank / team focused.  Wendy is AOE, farm focused.  Wanda is high damage, glass cannon.  Warly is the one with the cute beard who helps everyone through the power of friendship.  (I mean, the team / damage focused one.)

The thing is - and ironically other topics always come up about this - DST isn't that hard of a game.  Once you know things, and have experience, everything in the game becomes possible.  I guess in this situation maybe you simply disagree with even having a glass cannon character because being a few hits away from death is about the same as 200 hit points if you only ever take a few hits...  but imo ~ she fits in very well both thematically and mechanically.  She is a joy to play, and from my experience with her if you mess up you *will* die.  I've experienced about every type of death there is on her, but my favorite is when you heal up and then take just 1 more hit, so your health will time out before your watches come off cd so you' know you're going to die in 2 minutes, and you gotta do what you gotta do until then :\ 

[KeshS]

5 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

glass cannon

This term is thrown a lot about Wanda. I still during this time have hard time grasping, why? Glass cannon is getting punished for taking damage in exchange for increased power, but Wanda can also craft lots of second time watches for quite a cheap price. Glass cannon should have a definitive weakness, but for Wanda it's like half weakness?? Like, oops my mistake, going to try again, and quickly get back to boss fight. It is not glass cannon. Feel free to say I am wrong I just don't see it. A good example for definitive weakness is Wickerbottom, you can't sleep no matter what you do, and not a single late game item will help (memedrake doesn't count).

[Yuuko]

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A good example for definitive weakness is Wickerbottom, you can't sleep no matter what you do, and not a single late game item will help (memedrake doesn't count).

idk - most people don't sleep to regain sanity.  Instead they chomp down cooked green caps, cactus, taffy, wear a tam, etc.  You can also wear a bone helm to largely negate her state of insanity as the nightmare monsters will ignore you while you continue to cast on-tentacles or sleepy time stories as much as you wish.

8 minutes ago, KeshS said:

This term is thrown a lot about Wanda. I still during this time have hard time grasping, why? Glass cannon is getting punished for taking damage in exchange for increased power, but Wanda can also craft lots of second time watches for quite a cheap price. Glass cannon should have a definitive weakness, but for Wanda it's like half weakness?? Like, oops my mistake, going to try again, and quickly get back to boss fight. It is not glass cannon. Feel free to say I am wrong I just don't see it.

Wanda can craft watches - but its all a balancing act.  Each watch is a spot in her inventory, and using night armor she doesn't have a backpack.  Add in whether you're also using ice staves, weather pains, extra armor, stacks of nm fuel, foods b/c hunger, etc.  I feel having 2 in my inventory is the most I can take before I feel cluttered with them.

They are awkward to use in a fight too - they lock you in place while you cast for about 2 seconds.  The recovery is over time, and if anything damages you the heal is cancelled.  Some effects hit her a lot harder than the rest of the cast, specifically things that apply a dot and aren't mitigated by armor.  Getting cooked, frozen, or starved as Wanda is a whole sense of doom you don't get many other places in DST...  "BUT I NEVER GET COOKED / FROZEN / STARVED" okay, then play her!  Because I have a lot of time playing this game, and I still get frozen, cooked, and starved...  for me it certainly poses a unique challenge.

[HowlVoid]

8 hours ago, Ohan said:

But here’s the thing: I disagree.

This is completely new information. 

Before the Wendy reworked I would of agreed with you.

In terms of balance the characters are all over the place, I much rather that they catch up with characters like Wanda. That seems to be the direction Klei takes anyways, well, half of the time. For example, I rather they buff the bramble husk than have the alarming watch removed.

[Yuuko]

55 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

For example, I rather they buff the bramble husk than have the alarming watch removed.

I really wish they would buff the damage of the slingshot enough that Walter can play as a true ranged character.  The fights just take too long with the damage as it is. Similarly I think they should add some type of scaling to battle spear so Wigfrid can reach dark sword tier damage with her spear.  Maybe give her a song that amps her damage if she's using the battle spear.  This way she starts with what she has now, but can upgrade into something better.

Why give a character a unique weapon if that weapon isn't going to be any good?

(imo this goes side by side with arguments to buff Willow's lighter, letting her upgrade the light aura so she would keep using it instead of switching to a lantern.  Every character doesn't have to be good at combat, but what they *are* good at should be better than default game settings, otherwise what's the point?)

[Dextops]

no

[Ohan]

29 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Her weapon is irrelevant in this context.  Its purpose is to make her glass cannon style of play viable. 

Viable = easy? U can be a “glass cannon” with a melee weapon too you know. 

…how is her weapon irrelevant? 

From the start you’ve completely missed my point so I’ll leave it at that because i really don’t know who ur responding to. 

————
Ive said everything I wanted to say on Wanda’s balance and I don’t feel the need to rehash it any further. I don’t care if you think there’s nothing wrong with the alarming clock.
You can rest assured that klei is not going to take it away from u lol. 

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Ohan said:

You can rest assured that klei is not going to take it away from u lol. 

You say that - but Wolfgang lost his speed.  imo this is a pretty relevant conversation b/c nerfing Wolfgang sets a precedence that can trickle down to Wanda, Wendy, Webber etc.  imo old Wolfgang fit right in after Wendy's rework and Wanda's release.  Same with spider rework and Webber.  But with them nerfing him...  kinda hard to say what they'll do next.

[KeshS]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

most people don't sleep to regain sanity.  Instead they chomp down cooked green caps, cactus, taffy, wear a tam, etc.  You can also wear a bone helm to largely negate her state of insanity as the nightmare monsters will ignore you while you continue to cast on-tentacles or sleepy time stories as much as you wish.

It is an example of action she can't do whatsever, not something is better anyway. Other examples are Wigfrid and Wurt being picky eaters. Same argument could be applied that food isn't an issue in game, and it is quite easy to produce.Well why can't Wanda use only touchstone or getting revived by others?

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

They are awkward to use in a fight too - they lock you in place while you cast for about 2 seconds.

You can wait a bit for any hostile mob to deagro. If you do get hit you quickly unroot yourself anyway.

19 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Getting cooked, frozen, or starved as Wanda is a whole sense of doom you don't get many other places in DST...  "BUT I NEVER GET COOKED / FROZEN / STARVED" okay, then play her!  Because I have a lot of time playing this game, and I still get frozen, cooked, and starved...  for me it certainly poses a unique challenge.

It is still much much better to revive close to your items than going all the way to touchstone in Winter. Don't you think?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

29 minutes ago, KeshS said:

but Wanda can also craft lots of second time watches for quite a cheap price.

i want to think that you were refering to ageless watch instead because LGA are cheaper

[Yuuko]

7 minutes ago, KeshS said:

It is an example of action she can't do whatsever, not something is better anyway. Other examples are Wigfrid and Wurt being picky eaters. Same argument could be applied that food isn't an issue in game, and it is quite easy to produce.Well why can't Wanda use only touchstone or getting revived by others?

Wigfrid and Wurt both have plenty of healing and sanity restoring dishes available for them.  The veg menu was also expanded recently with leafy meats making up for what advantage meat dishes used to have over them.  RWYS gave Wurt a big buff too.  I'd rate both dietary restrictions as pretty minor, same as Wicker's sanity.  Warly's dietary restriction is a bigger problem then either of them, but there are more crock pot healing dishes now too ~ so even there I think its not that big of a deal.  Instead of cooking up 8 perogies, I cook up 2 perogies, 2 fish sticks, 2 surf n turf, 2 trail mix.

Why would Wanda be restricted to only use touch stone or revive by others?  Why would she be locked out of meat effigies, LGA's, or second chance?

7 minutes ago, KeshS said:

You can wait a bit for any hostile mob to deagro. If you do get hit you quickly unroot yourself anyway.

If you get hit then you just lost ALL of your healing, your watch is on cd, and you just took even more damage.

Also the whole "bait an attack first" implies you are fully in control of your situation.  Add in 2 terror beaks chasing you, or a hound wave, and you'll find its VERY tough to get a good window in to heal as you go.  This is a good example of people assuming the best possible situations, and judging purely on that.  DST is easy in the best possible situation, no matter what character you are playing - so why would it be a surprise that Wanda, the glass cannon, is great in the best possible situation?  Why not consider the worst possible situation - you're being chased by a herd of shadow monkeys.  A normal character has their entire belly and health bar to spend running away.  Wanda only has a certain amount of time.  No way is she going to be able to stop and heal while running away from them.

7 minutes ago, KeshS said:

It is still much much better to revive close to your items than going all the way to touchstone in Winter. Don't you think?

It is not strictly better either way - There is a revive animation during which monsters can aggro you, or darkness / charlie can wack you before you even have a chance to control your character.  While your watches will stay with you, your armor and light source are on the ground.  Sometimes second chance watch is great, but there are plenty of times I prefer to use an LGA or meat effigy instead.  Playing solo I'd say more often then not I don't want second chance watch.  Multiplayer its great though.