Should wanda be nerfed?

[Cloakingsumo198]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Snip

I had a cursed idea. Klei should give Wanda a long drawn out rewind animation for her ageless clock where she stands still to slowly de-age instead of a cool down (no need for ageless clock stacking now). It will also add more risk since Wanda will need a bigger window to rewind her age, but it would still function as stopping her from aging too rapidly from too big hits.

So she'll be side graded and slower JUST for tedium sake.

[HowlVoid]

4 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I had a cursed idea. Klei should give Wanda a long drawn out rewind animation for her ageless clock where she stands still to slowly de-age instead of a cool down (no need for ageless clock stacking now). It will also add more risk since Wanda will need a bigger window to rewind her age, but it would still function as stopping her from aging too rapidly from too big hits.

So she'll be side graded and slower JUST for tedium sake.

Nerf Cloakingsumo198 by removing every other tooth with tweezers reducing his troll laugh by 50%.

[Cloakingsumo198]

7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Nerf Cloakingsumo198 by removing every other tooth with tweezers reducing his troll laugh by 50%.

Been civil long enough. Enter the fray.

[Cheggf]

Wanda's watches could be destroyed on use and have a 30 second use time but people would still be like "Glass cannon? She can just craft a bunch of watches!".

[ethannnnnnn]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

The thing is surviving as her isn't hard for lower skilled players due to always having healing on her even if it needs a cooldown and while it's true getting her higher tier gear can be hard for a new player even lower skilled players are and have raided the achieves which is not only quite safe but the only real hurtle a player faces when crafting her clocks. Finally while fighting in old age is something that's not easy at all for less skilled players there's nothing saying you have to fight in old age to get benefits from her kit yes she's stronger in old age but she still packs more of a punch than most outside of old age as well. 

But picking her for a minimal boost in combat ability with the trade off of less overall health and foregoing useful traits offered by other survivors, it seems pointless to pick her if you're not even going to use her old age. You'll still be more vulnerable for 90% of your interactions, which can add up when you're not playing perfectly.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just now, ethannnnnnn said:

But picking her for a minimal boost in combat ability with the trade off of less overall health and foregoing useful traits offered by other survivors, it seems pointless to pick her if you're not even going to use her old age. You'll still be more vulnerable for 90% of your interactions, which can add up when you're not playing perfectly.

Vulnerable how. She has max 150 HP. You'll be using her old age one way or another once you get the alarming clock. She also has her other utility clocks and can make more ageless ones for faster recovery on cool down.

[Dextops]

53 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Wanda's watches could be destroyed on use and have a 30 second use time but people would still be like "Glass cannon? She can just craft a bunch of watches!".

wanda but all her watches can only be crafted once ever and after one use they break this also applies for all crafting recipes

its the dementia dlc

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

But picking her for a minimal boost in combat ability with the trade off of less overall health and foregoing useful traits offered by other survivors, it seems pointless to pick her if you're not even going to use her old age. You'll still be more vulnerable for 90% of your interactions, which can add up when you're not playing perfectly.

This conversation was assuming the player wasn't skilled and your technically less venerable when you consider most fights you can run from and generally are started by you the player to begin with you'd be surprised how hard of a time some players have finding healing so having a cooldown based healing item always with you is actually a boon for them. 

 

[Yuuko]

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This conversation was assuming the player wasn't skilled and your technically less venerable when you consider most fights you can run from and generally are started by you the player to begin with you'd be surprised how hard of a time some players have finding healing so having a cooldown based healing item always with you is actually a boon for them. 

 

idk I think its not so easy to say - if a player doesn't know enough to avoid fights, do they know enough to keep tabs on their health?  How often will they die with an AW off cd in their inventory b/c they just didn't notice?  Can they time when they can and can not use a heal clock if they're being attacked by a mob?  It might work for them, but it might also lead to them simply dying over and over again.  If the player can't avoid combat they are more likely to spam the watch mid-combat and fail a heal putting it on cd and leaving them low on health.  If they can avoid combat, they're probably better off with a character who isn't constantly bleeding health, requiring they upkeep 2 stats instead of 1 (one of which isn't super clear visually, being a clock dial instead of clear, contrasting colored, full / empty meter.)

I think the "infinite healing young Wanda meta" is something defined by experienced players who are cognizant of these things and see how, for their experience, it could be read as a boon.  Once you get passed the surface claim I think any new player is going to be infinitely better off playing Wendy then Wanda, and I'd love to see how someone - anyone - could try to actually argue against this.  Spiders and butterflies cover both food and healing.  Abigail will respond to any threats with enough force to auto-win against nearly *any* new-game situation they might wonder into - especially anything a single AW might recover them from...

A stack of spider glands and Abigail >>>>>> Wanda with 1-2 ageless watches

[Cloakingsumo198]

11 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Snip.

Wanda's will have to learn to watch their age.  

Wendy's will have to learn to assist Abigail and if Abigail just dies they'll soon have to learn how to fight shadow creatures alone.

Wanda and Wendy have different problems calling Wendy easy though doesn't make Wanda hard.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk I think its not so easy to say - if a player doesn't know enough to avoid fights, do they know enough to keep tabs on their health?

How is this a Wanda specific problem

 

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Can they time when they can and can not use a heal clock if they're being attacked by a mob?  It might work for them, but it might also lead to them simply dying over and over again.  If the player can't avoid combat they are more likely to spam the watch mid-combat and fail a heal putting it on cd and leaving them low on health.  If they can avoid combat, they're probably better off with a character who isn't constantly bleeding health, requiring they upkeep 2 stats instead of 1 (one of which isn't super clear visually, being a clock dial instead of clear, contrasting colored, full / empty meter.)

If they can't figure out how to run when they can't win a fight how will they even know where to find a healing item as someone else or even survive long enough to get said healing. It feels like your both giving them too much credit and not enough at the same time.

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think the "infinite healing young Wanda meta" is something defined by experienced players who are cognizant of these things and see how, for their experience, it could be read as a boon.  Once you get passed the propaganda I think any new player is going to be infinitely better off playing Wendy then Wanda, and I'd love to see how someone - anyone - could try to actually argue against this.  Spiders and butterflies cover both food and healing.  Abigail will respond to any threats with enough force to auto-win against nearly *any* new-game situation they might wonder into - especially anything a single AW might recover them from...

A stack of spider glands and Abigail >>>>>> 1-2 ageless watches

I mean the Wendy part of this argument applies vs every other character so I don't really see your point. As for the healing part are you saying having a newer or less skilled player start with a healing source isn't a advantage at all because they should know you can get healing from butterflies and spiders (something a lot of less skilled and some decently skilled players often die to) I'm not saying her ageless watch is some crazy exploit but pretending people who are bad at farming healing foods and items won't get a good use out of it is silly to me and no Wendy having her semi immortal killer drone doesn't change that.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

How is this a Wanda specific problem

How is keeping tabs on ever decreasing health a Wanda specific problem?  Hm, let me think about that lolol

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 

If they can't figure out how to run when they can't win a fight how will they even know where to find a healing item as someone else or even survive long enough to get said healing. It feels like your both giving them too much credit and not enough at the same time.

I'm posing that IF they are skilled enough to avoid combat => the ever bleeding health might be a bigger obstacle than boon since they'll have more things to monitor then if their health were static, and IF they aren't skilled enough to avoid combat => then they're probably not skilled enough to pick the times to use the AW to actually save them.  Odds are it will end up on cd with its heal wasted because they'll fail to use it when they actually have a safe window to stand still for 2 seconds mid-combat.

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean the Wendy part of this argument applies vs every other character so I don't really see your point. As for the healing part are you saying having a newer or less skilled player start with a healing source isn't a advantage at all because they should know you can get healing from butterflies and spiders (something a lot of less skilled and some decently skilled players often die to) I'm not saying her ageless watch is some crazy exploit but pretending people who are bad at farming healing foods and items won't get a good use out of it is silly to me and no Wendy having her semi immortal killer drone doesn't change that.

I'm saying exactly what I'm saying.  If you fail to understand that, perhaps you *want* to misunderstand it.

Starting with an AW and endlessly bleeding health means they could die without ever engaging in combat by simply overlooking their health as it ticks down.  There aren't many indicators you're getting near the edge, so they could easily just die walking around.  Meanwhile starting with Wendy makes butterflies literally free, just turn Abigail on hostile and pick them up.  Kinda hard to mess that up...

IF we're basing our discussion about what is OP or not on whether a new player could pick it up and instantly gain benefits from it, Wendy is the clear winner of the OP trophy.

I know for a fact that even with many hours of DST under my belt when I first picked up Wanda I died several times just walking around.

9 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Wanda's will have to learn to watch their age.  

Wendy's will have to learn to assist Abigail and if Abigail just dies they'll soon have to learn how to fight shadow creatures alone.

Wanda and Wendy have different problems calling Wendy easy though doesn't make Wanda hard.

Wendy only needs to learn how to turn Abigail hostile and calm, and almost any fight she can get into early game will be taken care of for her.  Certainly any fight an AW would help you recover from.  She doesn't need to help Abigail against spiders, frogs, hounds, or even pigs until they get way up there in numbers.  Of course she *can* help out, but that's not important until you get to late game hound waves, bosses, or like multiple t3 spider dens with warrior spiders procced.

[Cloakingsumo198]

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Snip

Why don't you compare Wanda to Wilson.

[Kemthazul]

Jokes on you, I picked both Wendy and Wanda on that other thread 

Sicne I don't wanna derail further, I'll just say they're both wack 

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

This conversation was assuming the player wasn't skilled and your technically less venerable when you consider most fights you can run from and generally are started by you the player to begin with you'd be surprised how hard of a time some players have finding healing so having a cooldown based healing item always with you is actually a boon for them. 

 

How is it any different from most characters having infinite healing in their pockets? The pro of the ageless watches isn't that it's healing on cooldown, that's a detriment. The pro is that it doesn't spoil and that isn't that great of an advantage over most healing foods that last at least 7 to 10 days before going stale. Not even toadstool lasts 10 days unless you're doing something wrong.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Shosuko said:

How is keeping tabs on ever decreasing health a Wanda specific problem?  Hm, let me think about that lolol

So you saying having a visual animation for aging as well as a quote is harder to keep track of vs other characters who say nothing about the damage they take?

 

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I'm posing that IF they are skilled enough to avoid combat => the ever bleeding health might be a bigger obstacle than boon since they'll have more things to monitor then if their health were static, and IF they aren't skilled enough to avoid combat => then they're probably not skilled enough to pick the times to use the AW to actually save them.  Odds are it will end up on cd with its heal wasted because they'll fail to use it when they actually have a safe window to stand still for 2 seconds mid-combat.

So they're skilled enough to avoid combat but not smart enough to learn that the healing can be interrupted by being hit after a few failed attempts?

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I'm saying exactly what I'm saying.  If you fail to understand that, perhaps you *want* to misunderstand it.

Starting with an AW and endlessly bleeding health means they could die without ever engaging in combat by simply overlooking their health as it ticks down.  There aren't many indicators you're getting near the edge, so they could easily just die walking around.

Just trying to make something clear I'm assuming that a new/less skilled player who picks up Wanda would try to keep her in her younger years now I'm not sure if you know this but other characters do not have indicators on when their close to death unless your watching their hp Wanda on the other hand has 2 form changes with character quotes before she hits her death age as well as a hp/time bar I'm not gonna flat out say a it's impossible for them to forget but if your a player not playing in old age it seems rather hard to forget your hurt giving all the indicators she has I think your thinking of her in her old age glass cannon mode which is not what those players would be going for.

 

15 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Meanwhile starting with Wendy makes butterflies literally free, just turn Abigail on hostile and pick them up.  Kinda hard to mess that up...

IF we're basing our discussion about what is OP or not on whether a new player could pick it up and instantly gain benefits from it, Wendy is the clear winner of the OP trophy.

Your argument here seems to amount to because Wendy exists nothing else works for new players. You instantly gain a healing watch I'm not saying it's overpowered but saying it's not a instant benefit is nothing but a lie. My argument wasn't that the healing watch is op but that it is useful to newer and less skilled players

 

19 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I know for a fact that even with many hours of DST under my belt when I first picked up Wanda I died several times just walking around.

I know plenty with many hours in the game who died due to character specific weaknesses heck I'll even admit I've died to some on characters this doesn't prove anything.

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

How is it any different from most characters having infinite healing in their pockets? The pro of the ageless watches isn't that it's healing on cooldown, that's a detriment. The pro is that it doesn't spoil and that isn't that great of an advantage over most healing foods that last at least 7 to 10 days before going stale. Not even toadstool lasts 10 days unless you're doing something wrong.

Depends on the perspective you need the skills to stockpile and efficacy to reach that infinite healing in pocket and not having to worry about that part can be useful to a casual player not game breaking not meta defining but useful. 

[shiguld]

1 hour ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I had a cursed idea. Klei should give Wanda a long drawn out rewind animation for her ageless clock where she stands still to slowly de-age instead of a cool down (no need for ageless clock stacking now). It will also add more risk since Wanda will need a bigger window to rewind her age, but it would still function as stopping her from aging too rapidly from too big hits.

So she'll be side graded and slower JUST for tedium sake.

I love this idea. In fact, i have a whole set of original ideas for her potential rework.

First, lets decouple her age from health, so she has 4 meters. Her young/middle/old age transitions uses the age meter, but doesnt kill her at max age. Its a buff since she can now heal by food n stuff!

Next, let's make the ageless watch a consumable (breaks after 100 years rewind). No longer has a cooldown, but she has to stand still as it rewinds. Oh oh, but if you want to save resources to make new watches, you can craft a time capsule structure that lowers age/sec when you get in. You can upgrade these with gems to make it youngify you faster. 

Oh, also, to make her a better team player, lets have her gain sanity when nearby other characters (since shes been on the run alone for so long, its nice to not be alone). Also, just some Qol changes. Since she's good with shadow magic, lets have her have decreased durability drain when using shadow weapons at -20% - not staves though, because that will be too op

Alas, we cant give her just buffs without balancing it out with nerfs. For starters, backtrek watch is removed because speed bonuses are op and shouldnt be for every character. Also, at old age, she takes 25% more damage and has decreased 60 overheating/ freezing resistance, since old people are frail. 

There, you have the perfectly balanced rework and im sure more people would be interested in playing other characters after!

PS: I pressed the wrong button, plz dont nerf wanda. I'd like for more characters to have perks like hers which makes use of end game resources - really does make the game feel like theres more stuff to do in an old world

 

[ethannnnnnn]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

This conversation was assuming the player wasn't skilled and your technically less venerable when you consider most fights you can run from and generally are started by you the player to begin with you'd be surprised how hard of a time some players have finding healing so having a cooldown based healing item always with you is actually a boon for them. 

 

In my experience, most newer players fail to handle an overwhelming amount of enemies like hounds, and nightmare creatures. Fights in which you typically can't heal with the clock.

[Mike23Ua]

Hello Wendy main here I get tons of spider glands for free daily, it’s really easy.. but when my friends die and die a lot I’m also crafting tons of telltale hearts daily, and after so many hearts crafted: I’m too low on hp to craft others & in addition to having the gland in my inventory: Now need to either craft healing salves to bring my own HP back up, sleep in a tent or eat just so I can craft more hearts to revive my Newbie friends 

Hello I’m a also a decent-ish Wanda player: I spawn into the game with a free clock to rewind any damage I may take like it never happened, I also spawn with enough extra clock parts to rush crafting Second Chance watch- Which will allow me to revive those dying noob friends of mine on a cooldown for 100% free I’m not wasting grass or Glands: In fact the only use I have for Glands since I can’t use them for my own healing is to craft infinite Telltale hearts to revive those dying noobs with and instead of costing me health to do so I get to do it for the simple cost of a few blades of grass & time off my clock I’ll just rewind back like nothing happened: I can also get some pretty crazy late game perks like teleportation and portable black holes & to make absolute certain I rarely ever die I get a Yo-Yo that deals higher damage then most weapons in the game.

Wendy?? Where are you going? To send Abigail to beat up some more Spiders for you to heal yourself after reviving your friends 34 times within the last 42 minutes? Aw I’m sorry poor girl.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, ethannnnnnn said:

In my experience, most newer players fail to handle an overwhelming amount of enemies like hounds, and nightmare creatures. Fights in which you typically can't heal with the clock.

This is fair but doesn't this also lead to death with any other character it's not like a young with armor has super low hp.

[ethannnnnnn]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This is fair but doesn't this also lead to death with any other character it's not like a young with armor has super low hp.

I mean you play Wigfrid and hold f you can take a huge beating. Play Wendy and you can handle crowds easily. Play willow and you have ways to deal with nightmare creatures. Play Wolfgang and you've got a bunch of health. Play Wanda though and you have no uniquely effective way of dealing with these groups better than any other character in the game (other than damage, but that circles back to having to use her glass cannon mode which you've said isn't necessary even), all while being much more susceptible to dying in these situations due to no reliable healing.

[Mike23Ua]

12 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

In my experience, most newer players fail to handle an overwhelming amount of enemies like hounds, and nightmare creatures. Fights in which you typically can't heal with the clock.

In my experience with this most newer players learn (& very early on I might add..) to not fight spiders directly and to instead use a grass trap to capture them extra especially the Spider Warriors.

But then again I play on Xbox.. and most the time it’s overall better NOT to fight and to instead use the craftable items available to you in creative ways.

Still doesn’t change the fact Wanda is the Thanos of DST… chicks got the Infinity Gauntlet and can undo all her own or anyone else in the servers mistakes. Wanda is the literal definition of a Walking Rollback function.

[HowlVoid]

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So you saying having a visual animation for aging as well as a quote is harder to keep track of vs other characters who say nothing about the damage they take?

Falling into Old Wanda unprepared can a be a death sentence.

The healing from the ageless watches can be completely negated if you are hit as the animation starts. 

You can be hard locked into a death, something unique no other character faces.

Quote

So they're skilled enough to avoid combat but not smart enough to learn that the healing can be interrupted by being hit after a few failed attempts?

Sometimes healing under pressure can be hard there are a few encounters where foresight and adaptability are required from the player, shadow splumonkeys and hounds come to mind. An opening which may require skill is required to make an opening.

For example I have found myself in a situation where I couldn't heal due to shadow monkeys. Due to my experience I ran to a rook with very little health left. With little time on my heands I narrowly dodged the rook, took out the monkeys, and healed. 

Quote

Just trying to make something clear I'm assuming that a new/less skilled player who picks up Wanda would try to keep her in her younger years now I'm not sure if you know this but other characters do not have indicators on when their close to death unless your watching their hp Wanda on the other hand has 2 form changes with character quotes before she hits her death age as well as a hp/time bar I'm not gonna flat out say a it's impossible for them to forget but if your a player not playing in old age it seems rather hard to forget your hurt giving all the indicators she has I think your thinking of her in her old age glass cannon mode which is not what those players would be going for.

Indicators are useful when passively losing hp. In a group and in the middle of battle you can absolutely miss the cues amidst the chaos. 

Quote

Your argument here seems to amount to because Wendy exists nothing else works for new players. You instantly gain a healing watch I'm not saying it's overpowered but saying it's not a instant benefit is nothing but a lie. My argument wasn't that the healing watch is op but that it is useful to newer and less skilled players

Wendy is generally better for new players because of all the passive multitasking Wendy can do. Gathering grass and twigs generates a passive 8 hp. That allows for far more forgiving gameplay. Having your healing watch cancelled and falling straight into Old Wanda because you can't kite is pretty bad. 

You also have to think about time loss which is generally the biggest killer of inexperienced players. When you have downsides that require immediate attention, such as looking for thulecite, there will be less prep for everything else. Less winter prep, less hound prep, less map exploration that alone is a detriment for those that aren't as experienced at adapting.

Quote

I know plenty with many hours in the game who died due to character specific weaknesses heck I'll even admit I've died to some on characters this doesn't prove anything.

It proves that the weaknesses matter. There are weaknesses that don't matter such as Wickers insomnia because that can't kill you. When was the last time you died due to this downside (insomnia)?

Quote

Depends on the perspective you need the skills to stockpile and efficacy to reach that infinite healing in pocket and not having to worry about that part can be useful to a casual player not game breaking not meta defining but useful. 

Trail mix

Fish sticks

Buttermuffin

A blue mushroom

A forest of blue mushrooms

Pierogie

A single cooked potato

Chili

Turkey dinner

Honey ham

Honey nuggets

Froggie bunwhich

Etc etc etc

Healing in this game with food is hardly  limiting. 

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, ethannnnnnn said:

I mean you play Wigfrid and hold f you can take a huge beating. Play Wendy and you can handle crowds easily. Play willow and you have ways to deal with nightmare creatures. Play Wolfgang and you've got a bunch of health. Play Wanda though and you have no uniquely effective way of dealing with these groups better than any other character in the game, all while being much more susceptible to dying in these situations due to no reliable healing.

Willow's method is very risky on lower skill levels, and Plenty a Wigfrid and Wolfgang have died trying to take on hordes yes skilled players can make use of these advantages to swing horde battles in their favor but that's not what we're talking about right now.

[Kemthazul]

6 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

 Play willow and you have ways to deal with nightmare creatures.

Bit of nitpicking but... Funny though because one can just hold F with an alarming clock as Wanda against shadow creatures