Should wanda be nerfed?

[Mike23Ua]

I’m of the mindset that “nerfs” don’t necessarily mean make characters a headache from hell to play.. “Nerfs” could simply mean to make them more unique, interesting and fun to play as- in my above examples I just gave Wanda a unique identity you won’t get from playing as any other character based entirely on your race against TIME.. (her personal theme)

For Wendy: I only want to loop her Powers deeper into having to actually have to “Interact & Engage With..” Her new Reworked features: That being Doing Quests for Pipspook & Monitoring the fuels placed in your Sisturns.

Its only a “Nerf” if you just want to be ridiculously powerful with little actual gameplay depth..  But I also think that Klei should look at all their playable characters and try to give them each a unique identity and game-play style based almost entirely upon who they are as a Character..

Wendy being Spirits, Wanda Time, Wolfgang getting Buff.. etc..

Its only a “Nerf” when you don’t care at all about the characters Personality & Identity & just want to go around wrecking things.

But I’m also in my 30’s and I understand Balance changes and can Adjust to them… 

Some people would pitch fits about any changes made.

Klei simply can never satisfy everyone.

[SecretPizzaMan]

Just now, abrocator said:

In that case you are talking about a total age healing nerf of 6 years, or 15 HP.  Which seems so small that it seems that you don’t think she should be nerfed much.

Sorry if I didn't clarify in my earlier comment, I meant that for every ageless watch on cool down in Wanda's inventory, the rest would heal 1 less age. 

[DajeKotlyar]

She is really powerful, but only for skilled players

[Waynel]

Off the top of my head :

 

• Every AW is basically an infinite butter muffin on cd, so wanda’s quest for healing is non-existent.

 

• Pretty bad for a bq rush but a late game god as far as "legit" boss fights go. A single night armor (in case you do get hit once), a bq crown and a backstep watch will have you covered for many many fw fights, whereas other chars will still farm jellybeans / some other healing items, decon their cane/make more weather pains, and renew their armor. (unless you’re so good that you can consistently dodge bone cage during a 10 min fw fight with a mere cane, tanking is advised !)

Nothing to comment about df or cc fights lol.

 

• imo, getting tons of fuel pretty quickly with bone helm + night armor/bone armor is pretty fun

 

• If you like playing as old wanda, watchout for tick dmg as you will have to unfreeze before you can properly make use of your AW. Also, if you don’t want to get one shot by a random slurtle in the caves, ride a beefalo or simply don’t get distracted when you play the game (staying focused can be hard at times, ik !)

 

• Soak every walrus you can get during your first winter (it goes without saying, rb for triple mac).

 

3 hours ago, Dr.Medic said:

all what people talk about is damage, like all the time, more damage = OP, and people love to ignore everything else she has

step back watch for easy kite
wormhole on the go
team wormhole on the go
a resurrection tool that never breaks if used like telltale heart, even on other wandas
dies whit the inventory on
if wanda is resurected whit a heart, she will not have black hp or time like the other characters
resurrect others whit watch dont make them have black hp

so in total i would say maybe some sort of nerf?

No, she’s fun to me, don’t nerf her, don’t be a killjoy.

 

And most importantly, enjoy your taffy farm !

[Yuuko]

9 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

I fail to understand how character nerfs help towards the experience of DST, or what kind of a "balance" people are referring to when they are speaking of a character being overpowered. Can someone please explain how this should work in DST? I'm serious.

So again, if the player experience is the most important thing in a game, why remove perks/features from a character, or why nerf them? Why can't every character receive something that makes them both strong and fun to play, and why can't some characters be stronger than others? Why can't some characters excel in rushing certain objectives, and why can't certain characters excel in their combat abilities? Why can't a single character be good in all these aspects, or why can't every character except Wes be uniquely good in all these aspects? I seriously need a detailed explanation.

Balance still exists even in a co-operative pve environment.  You'll notice that even as glass cutter and strident trident were added they didn't eclipse the dps of a dark sword.  The dark sword is basically the upper limit Klei will let a weapon deal.  Character damage perks stack on top of this giving us a total upper limit of power for any single character.  Its no coincidence that Wanda with her clock hits the same dps as Wolfgang with a dark sword.

This upper limit is important because every boss has a certain amount of health.  If you are fighting a boss solo they will take a minimum of x time, x being the dps of the player.  A fight has to be balanced to both be realistic with a 1x mod character as well as a 2x mod like Wolfgang.  Adding in group play, where x is the total dps of all characters and it turns into a very tough balancing act.  Getting it right means everyone can enjoy the game, whether they are playing solo on a 1x mod character, a high damage character, or working as a group.

When it comes to changes in the game you always wanna hit the outliers.  If someone is too weak, buff them.  If someone is too strong, neft them.  Don't go tweaking every OTHER character in the game b/c a single character is too strong.  Its far too much work, and often cascades into more work later as previously balanced systems are thrown off and must be completely re-honed.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

44 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

Can someone please explain how this should work in DST? I'm serious.

when a character, in a survival game, makes survival very easy to the point of not being fun for some people

like having a glass cannon character with a weapon and access to an armor that makes fighting, the core gameplay of glass cannon archetype, easier than with melee x1 damage characters

i would like if alarming clock deal less damage than dark swords so for daily fighting you use alarming clock to save materials and do it quickly and safe because of the range and making going melee actually a choice if you wish the higher dps but at the cost of being less safe than with alarming clock's range. But i guess she having extra damage on dark swords is because of players without experience to get thulecite or caveless servers

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

I don't know how you would nerf the alarming clock.

It shouldn’t deal more damage than a dark sword in old Wanda’s hands. 

It is incredibly safe because of its range, can be refuelled and makes the actual gathering of that fuel a joke. It shouldn’t also get to deal the most damage in the game per hit on top of all that. 

That just seems like common sense to me. 

 

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

when a character, in a survival game, makes survival very easy to the point of not being fun for some people

like having a glass cannon character with a weapon and access to an armor that makes fighting, the core gameplay of glass cannon archetype, easier than with melee x1 damage characters

i would like if alarming clock deal less damage than dark swords so for daily fighting you use alarming clock to save materials and do it quickly and safe because of the range and making going melee actually a choice if you wish the higher dps but at the cost of being less safe than with alarming clock's range. But i guess she having extra damage on dark swords is because of players without experience to get thulecite or caveless servers

Could also be because of how she plays on PlayStation/Xbox- Despite most the forums overlooking us as players of the game: Klei still has to balance characters & content around us..

It’s no secret we have significantly less utility with Wortox/Wanda/Wendy then people on PC have: And any further nerfs to these characters will also directly impact those of us who are already playing these characters outside of their full capacity of what they can do with point and drag KB+mouse controls.

Wanda may be OP but she is also the one character you don’t want to play during an Xbox Live lag spike: Because unlike every other character in the game- Her health is constantly ticking down regardless of if she’s lagging or not.

I don’t blame “lag” as being part of her intended design, but having that higher damage then Darksword damage while you are lagging can be a life saver.

I also feel like Wolfgang’s Rework changes of needing to stand still may also be because of exactly how much standing still console players do: You have to be kissable close to most objects to interact with them: So throwing fuel into a Campfire already requires you to be huddled BY that Campfire- Which is why Walter also has some weird highly annoying and Gimmicky sanity restoration perk to tell the same repetitive campfire stories over a campfire.

In short: Yes Console players are impacting your game, and also sometime later this year: Nintendo Switch players will ALSO Be Impacting your game.. 

Balance has to be divided amongst platforms the game is playable on: and in Turn: That also Means on PC characters like Wendy, Wanda and Wortox feel too OP because they aren’t as effective on other platforms.

Could they all use more depth based on their own unique gameplay & personality of who they are/how they play? Absolutely..

But hard Nerfs just because they’re “Too Good on PC” also means your Nerfing a character that was only HALF playable on PlayStation/Xbox/Nintendo

Please humbly do keep this in mind when asking for “Nerfs” thank you all for your kind hearted & caring consideration <3 

[Yuuko]

22 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

when a character, in a survival game, makes survival very easy to the point of not being fun for some people

like having a glass cannon character with a weapon and access to an armor that makes fighting, the core gameplay of glass cannon archetype, easier than with melee x1 damage characters

i would like if alarming clock deal less damage than dark swords so for daily fighting you use alarming clock to save materials and do it quickly and safe because of the range and making going melee actually a choice if you wish the higher dps but at the cost of being less safe than with alarming clock's range. But i guess she having extra damage on dark swords is because of players without experience to get thulecite or caveless servers

Nah, I'd rather not have character specific gear, especially one as cool as the alarming clock get put aside like the battle spear.  Imagine if Warly's portable crock pot had a slower cook timer instead of a faster one... why bother?  If you wanna fight with dark swords pick Wolfgang.  Wanda uses her clock, as she should.

11 minutes ago, Ohan said:

It shouldn’t deal more damage than a dark sword in old Wanda’s hands. 

It is incredibly safe because of its range, can be refuelled and makes the actual gathering of that fuel a joke. It shouldn’t also get to deal the most damage in the game per hit on top of all that. 

That just seems like common sense to me. 

With the slower attack speed her clock has nearly the same dps as a dark sword.  The difference isn't very significant.

-----------------------------

The only nerfs I could see bringing to Wanda is to further decrease whip damage unfueled, and at younger ages, and maybe give her a damage penalty against shadow monsters since the whip makes them ridiculously easy to farm.

[Scrimbles]

1 hour ago, Owlrus said:

She's a high-skill character, naturally she's going to be stronger than most other characters when used "properly". Truth is she's not easy to play. Strong for veterans, but anyone else would have a tremendously hard time managing her age, crafting her equipment, and fighting properly in her old form with the Alarming Clock. "High skill" should equal "high reward" if you play well.

Her Alarming Clock does unreasonable amounts of damage for little cost.

The skill curve is knowing how to best get the ingredients for it, and then the game plays itself from then on.

[Szczuku]

The only thing I would've changed in Wanda would be to remove the Alarming Clock.

Free teleporting and easy invincibility frames are enough to make playing as her worth it. Not to mention that if she were to rely on dark swords for bonus old-age damage she'd actually be a high risk-high/reward character and her 'isn't affected by dark swords/night armors' sanity drain' perk would also get to shine.

But now, that the community has gotten the taste of Alarming Clock, it's way too late to remove it.

[Ohan]

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

With the slower attack speed her clock has nearly the same dps as a dark sword.  The difference isn't very significant.

I know that, that is the problem lol. It deals comparable dps as a DS (but actually ends shorter fights quicker) but is more NM fuel efficient, refuellable and ranged which means its MUCH safer in use than a dark sword.

its not only about the damage, it’s the unmatched utility the clock provides on top of it. I thought I made that obvious in the comment u quoted? 

3 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

The only thing I would've changed in Wanda would be to remove the Alarming Clock.

Free teleporting and easy invincibility frames are enough to make playing as her worth it. Not to mention that if she were to rely on dark swords for bonus old-age damage she'd actually be a high risk-high reward character and her 'isn't affected by dark swords/night armors' sanity drain' perk would also get to shine.

But now, that the community has gotten the taste of Alarming Clock, it's way too late to remove it.

Exactly my thoughts. She would’ve been so much more interesting without the alarming clock

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Exactly my thoughts. She would’ve been so much more interesting without the alarming clock

and now klei already used the whip weapon idea, they put to much good ideas into one single character

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Ohan said:

I know that, that is the problem lol. It deals as much damage as a DS but is more NM fuel efficient, refuellable and ranged which means its MUCH safer in use than a dark sword.

its not only about the damage, it’s the unmatched utility the clock provides on top of it. I thought I made that obvious in the comment u quoted? 

You said it shouldn't deal more damage per hit then a dark sword - its a common misconception that her whip has higher dps than a dark sword.  When you account for her attack speed, they are virtually the same.  Having a higher 1 hit damage is only situationally useful, and rarely significant.

Yes it has range, that's kinda its thing.  Just like combat is kinda her thing.  She should be better at combat enough compared to the others that you feel it when you play her, especially since you're doing this at about 15 effective health.

BuT oMg WiTh NiGhT aRmOr ShE sO tAnKy - sure buddy, sure.  She is still not tanking her way through any fights.  Night armor doesn't have much health, and Wanda is still 1 bad hit away from death in most cases.  Player skill means a lot for Wanda, as it means for everyone else.  If you're good enough to ko dfly zero damage with Wanda, odds are you weren't struggling to beat her with anyone else...  And anyone who *is* struggling to beat dfly isn't going to find Wanda as the magic pick that wins the fight for them.

Especially when we compare her to Wolfgang - even post nerf he's got the same damage as Wanda with a fat 200 health bar AND he can wear marble armor so there is your 95% damage reduction.  If you don't want to play Wanda, and you wanna fight with dark swords, pick Wolfgang.  They play differently, as they should.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Shosuko said:

You said it shouldn't deal more damage per hit then a dark sword - its a common misconception that her whip has higher dps than a dark sword.  When you account for her attack speed, they are virtually the same.  Having a higher 1 hit damage is only situationally useful, and rarely significant.

Yes it has range, that's kinda its thing.  Just like combat is kinda her thing.  She should be better at combat enough compared to the others that you feel it when you play her, especially since you're doing this at about 15 effective health.

 

the thing is that, even if in numbers the dps is similar, having range makes her able to keep hitting non stop vs many enemies (like fw or klaus (without mention that klaus helps her to chese him..)) since they cant reach you if you step back a little which translates in more dps

she should be better at combat, she is better at combat than most characters using dark swords, having the alarming clock feels too much. That on top of having taffy as core food makes her gameplay feel stale after a while,atleast for me since i like to gather different materials and ingredients

and btw, im talking about this just for talking. Even if i kinda wish a less powerful wanda i dont think klei will nerf her and i dont think is neccesary, i can use dark sword and ban alarming clock while playing solo if i feel like it so i prefer fresh updates or improving underwhelming characters

 

 

meanwhile there is wigfrid eating mushcake, tea and taffy

[abrocator]

1 hour ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

Sorry if I didn't clarify in my earlier comment, I meant that for every ageless watch on cool down in Wanda's inventory, the rest would heal 1 less age. 

That’s what I said? When you use four watches: 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 = 6.  No penalty for the first, one for the second, and so on.

[NightfallsCurse]

My opinion:
No, Wanda isn't just straight OP...she is generally a high-skilled character. If she's going to be Op, she's going to have to be used quote on quote "Properly"

Night Armor:
Wanda may be very tanky with that night armor, but with its low durability and high cost, it isn't going to make her fly through fights, she's still going to need lots of armor for a boss fight like any other character would

Taffy:
Taffy is pretty useful with Wanda since I have access to nightmare ams early, the hunger bonus with taffy is overall great and the sanity boost is nice (even if there are other hunger and sanity-efficient foods)

[Ohan]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Yes it has range, that's kinda its thing.  Just like combat is kinda her thing.  She should be better at combat enough compared to the others that you feel it when you play her, especially since you're doing this at about 15 effective health.

But that’s the problem. Combat cant be her thing if she also has all her teleportation gimmicks which are much more unique and rare in the game than combat. Combat is Wolf’s, wigfrid’s, Wendy’s thing, characters who all have very little else going on besides combat perks. That is not the case at all with Wanda

Combat in the form of a whip that hits like truck shouldnt ever have been ‘her thing’. ‘Her thing’ is time warping teleportation and age HP that is more enough. 

Dark sword boost as a reward for truly living on the edge should’ve sufficed.

I won’t comment on the ‘15 effective health’ or ‘always 1 bad hit away from death’ cuz grass suits are not the only armor in the game

[Echsrick]

2 hours ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

 

  I kind of wished every character had their own unique weapon (wigfrid has one already).

willow has her personal body guard and can use lighter to burn enemys
wolfgang can use dumbbells
abigall can attack multyple things by standing still
wicker could technicaly use some books to attack things, like tentacle and lightnin
woodie could use an never breakin axe, or become were moose and become the weapon
wes can use some ballon tricks to do damage
maxwell has shadow fighters
wagstaff can build a fire shoting googles
wigfrid is wigfrid
woodlegs has a never breakin cannon
wilba can become a weapon
wormwood has aoe traps that can hurt players
wheeler has that weird gun
winona has catapults as weapons
walter has a slingshot
wanda has a whip

so technicaly most characters do have there special weapon, its just not direct sometimes

[Ohan]

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and btw, im talking about this just for talking. Even if i kinda wish a less powerful wanda i dont think klei will nerf her and i dont think is neccesary, i can use dark sword and ban alarming clock while playing solo if i feel like it so i prefer fresh updates or improving underwhelming characters

Same 

edit: I wanted to glue this at the bottom of my previous post but not fast enough 

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the thing is that, even if in numbers the dps is similar, having range makes her able to keep hitting non stop vs many enemies (like fw or klaus (without mention that klaus helps her to chese him..)) since they cant reach you if you step back a little which translates in more dps

The Klaus situation is actually kinda needed for her.  The freeze / heat spells are SUPER effective against her since she can't just heal through it, and armor doesn't mitigate this damage.  Sure the range makes him easy, but not much easier than anyone else really.  Anyone can cheese Klaus.  If you *want* to fight him "legit," then fight him that way.  You don't need to use his sack to space him, which any other character can do.

The range of the whip enables a few unique interactions, but besides shadow creatures it doesn't significantly impact the game.  Wolfgang with double damage and a dark sword is as good against spider queens and tree guards as Wanda is.

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

she should be better at combat, she is better at combat than most characters using dark swords, having the alarming clock feels too much. That on top of having taffy as core food makes her gameplay feel stale after a while,atleast for me since i like to gather different materials and ingredients

tbh - I never eat taffy with her.  Better to keep her sanity low imo ~ Sure honey is ez nutreients, but the game gives enough meats that food is kinda irrelevant isn't it?  Eat whatever you want.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Better to keep her sanity low imo

i use cc crown but i farm the nightmere fuel with the bone helm or purple amulets

[Yuuko]

6 minutes ago, Ohan said:

But that’s the problem. Combat cant be her thing if she also has all her teleportation gimmicks which are much more unique and rare in the game than combat. Combat is Wolf’s, wigfrid’s, Wendy’s thing, characters who all have very little else going on besides combat perks. That is not the case at all with Wanda

Except combat IS her thing.  Accept it, or you're not arguing from a place of honesty.  She is a glass cannon character, all of the teleportation is the fluff, not the core perk.  Might as well argue to take away Walter's slingshot and Woby lol like any other perks matter without the core.

Quote

I won’t comment on the ‘15 effective health’ or ‘always 1 bad hit away from death’ cuz grass suits are not the only armor in the game

idk - I think a LOT of ppl like to exagerate how good things are.  Maybe I'm just complete ass at the game, but I find Wanda to be very frail compared to other survivors.  That doesn't mean she always dies in 1 hit, but that does mean she is *always* closer to death than any other survivor.  The whole point of a glass cannon character is that they can be very powerful if played well.  Playing Wanda not well *will* result in many deaths, and not many accomplishments, I guarantee you that.

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i use cc crown but i farm the nightmere fuel with the bone helm or purple amulets

are you only comparing complete end game status?  Because getting there is part of her game play...

[abrocator]

Most characters can prance around without armor in a lot of situations.  They can take a surprise hit from a mob because they weren’t paying attention, or didn’t consider that the beefalo would buck them off at right that exact time.  Old Wanda can’t really do that.  Old Wanda always has to have her head slot or her body slot occupied with an armor.  And for serious fights it should preferably have 90% or 95% damage reduction. This can be a pretty big change for people who usually bring their backpacks.  Now they might consider leaving their backpack at base a lot of the time.  So they can carry less stuff… on the other hand they have teleportation.

Old Wanda also can’t use a stack of healing items or jelly beans when she forgot that it was almost winter and she didn’t bring a thermal stone.

Young Wanda will be fine in those situations, though.  At the expense of hitting as hard as Wilson with a spear.

I think she has enough downsides compared to her upsides.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Playing Wanda not well *will* result in many deaths, and not many accomplishments, I guarantee you that.

i could lost a 1k wold with wanda because i didnt played her for a while, 3 deaths in few time: 1 because i step on spiderwebs in the maze and im used to dont use armor that much, glad i have meat effigies in the cave entrance; 2nd and 3rd were very close to each other... i was just walking and forgot to check the clock twice xD