Should wanda be nerfed?

[ethannnnnnn]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Willow's method is very risky on lower skill levels, and Plenty a Wigfrid and Wolfgang have died trying to take on hordes yes skilled players can make use of these advantages to swing horde battles in their favor but that's not what we're talking about right now.

My point is that Wanda, even not in her old stage, is still significantly harder than I'd say any other character save for maxwell, wes, or warly. She is frail and can ONLY heal with her watches, which are not as good a source of healing as they're made out to be. I'd much rather be able to use jelly beans than Wanda's watch.

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

My point is that Wanda, even not in her old stage, is still significantly harder than I'd say any other character save for maxwell, wes, or warly. She is frail and can ONLY heal with her watches, which are not as good a source of healing as they're made out to be. I'd much rather be able to use jelly beans than Wanda's watch.

If your using only one healing watch.. your playing Wanda wrong (or too good) I normally have two AW’s and the SC Watch as the first things I rush getting as Wanda.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Falling into Old Wanda unprepared can a be a death sentence.

The healing from the ageless watches can be completely negated if you are hit as the animation starts. 

You can be hard locked into a death, something unique no other character faces.

Sometimes healing under pressure can be hard there are a few encounters where foresight and adaptability are required from the player, shadow splumonkeys and hounds come to mind. An opening which may require skill is required to make an opening.

For example I have found myself in a situation where I couldn't heal due to shadow monkeys. Due to my experience I ran to a rook with very little health left. With little time on my heands I narrowly dodged the rook, took out the monkeys, and healed. 

Indicators are useful when passively losing hp. In a group and in the middle of battle you can absolutely miss the cues amidst the chaos. 

Wendy is generally better for new players because of all the passive multitasking Wendy can do. Gathering grass and twigs generates a passive 8 hp. That allows for far more forgiving gameplay. Having your healing watch cancelled and falling straight into Old Wanda because you can't kite is pretty bad. 

You also have to think about time loss which is generally the biggest killer of inexperienced players. When you have downsides that require immediate attention, such as looking for thulecite, there will be less prep for everything else. Less winter prep, less hound prep, less map exploration that alone is a detriment for those that aren't as experience at adapting.

It proves that the weaknesses matter. There are weaknesses that don't matter such as Wickers insomnia because that can't kill you. When was the last time you died due to this downside (insomnia)?

Trail mix

Fish sticks

Buttermuffin

A blue mushroom

A forest of blue mushrooms

Healing salve

Spider glands

Pierogie

A single cooked potato

Chili

Turkey dinner

Honey ham

Honey nuggets

Froggie bunwhich

Etc etc etc

Healing in this game with food is hardly  limiting. 

Did you not read my previous posts or are there just a ton of new and casual players ruins rushing, knowing about the cooking wiki, educated on farming, and having perfect sanity management? As for wickerbottoms weakness yes I have indeed seen new players die to nightmare creatures I'm not saying it's a good one but what does that even have to do with this? I'm noticing Wendy keeps getting thrown in as the reason to not play Wanda but I'm still confused why this invalidates her or even why there's so much focus on her in this conversation?   I never said healing was a issue for experienced players. Honestly it feels like with each response the skill level of these hypothetical new/casual players keeps rising. 

6 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

My point is that Wanda, even not in her old stage, is still significantly harder than I'd say any other character save for maxwell, wes, or warly. She is frail and can ONLY heal with her watches, which are not as good a source of healing as they're made out to be. I'd much rather be able to use jelly beans than Wanda's watch.

So now these new/casual players are killing bee queen now too eh?

If I'm being honest I'm beginning to wonder if people have actually been reading what I've been typing at this point...

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

So you saying having a visual animation for aging as well as a quote is harder to keep track of vs other characters who say nothing about the damage they take?

Health has a visual.  Its a very easy to read meter with a full and empty.  Its very obvious what low health looks like at a glance.  Further - you only lose health when something happens.  You can stay at 1 health as long as you can prevent anything else bad happening.

Wanda's time bar is a few dark shades, no clear contrast.  She also continually loses health even when nothing else is happening.  The need to use AW is constant.  If you use your AW and get hit down to 78 health you just get to watch your character die lol.

The bane of DST is "oops I forgot x"  X can be food, a weapon, armor, healing, hound wave timing, whatever.  X for Wanda can also be you forgot to wind your watch.  It happens.  Don't discount the constantly draining health as if its some paltry thing.  Without even getting into a fight Wanda can die, it takes a LOT for any other survivor to do that.

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So they're skilled enough to avoid combat but not smart enough to learn that the healing can be interrupted by being hit after a few failed attempts?

You don't know how if / then statements work do you?  IF they are X then the situation is Y.  I am presenting two cases, with their resulting outcomes.  You pick - are they able to avoid fights?  Yes?  Then constantly draining health is another passive drain to manage.  No - they can't avoid fights?  Then they'll probably fail their healing trying to spam it mid-fight.

Rather I suspect you're willfullly misreading things to continue pressing for this "young wanda op meta" as if its any stronger than any other character.  You still need to be able to avoid fights, if you can't do that an AW isn't going to save you.

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Your argument here seems to amount to because Wendy exists nothing else works for new players. You instantly gain a healing watch I'm not saying it's overpowered but saying it's not a instant benefit is nothing but a lie. My argument wasn't that the healing watch is op but that it is useful to newer and less skilled players

Not my argument in the slightest. My argument boils down to "If you're going to recommend a character that can help people who struggle with early game combat" that Wendy is the best answer.  Wanda introduces a more convoluted health bar with extra upkeep.  Yes she comes with a free healing item, but she is completely walled off from all other forms of healing too.  And that free form of healing is gated with a cd, can be interrupted, and is definitely NOT a spam-to-heal item.

If a new player needs a character that can help carry them - get them Wendy, not Wanda.

[HowlVoid]

36 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you not read my previous posts or are there just a ton of new and casual players ruins rushing, knowing about the cooking wiki, educated on farming, and having perfect sanity management?

How are they finding the archives? How do they know where to get nightmare fuel from if they keep dying to nightmares? How do they know where to get thulecite from?

You're contradicting yourself if you keep making the experienced player naive for my examples and suddenly giving them the knowledge for yours. 

Also

You've missed the point entirely, Wanda requires adaptability.

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As for wickerbottoms weakness yes I have indeed seen new players die to nightmare creatures I'm not saying it's a good one but what does that even have to do with this?

If they're dying to nightmares how are they getting the 8 nightmare for the alarming watch? 

As for for the Wickerbottom example, re-read what I wrote and why I used that example. They didn't die due to a lack of sleep but a lack of sanity management. While sleep is a way to restore sanity it is not the only one, meaning sleeping isn't a necessity. Ageless watches are a necessity for healing meaning they are a far more relevant downside.

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I'm noticing Wendy keeps getting thrown in as the reason to not play Wanda but I'm still confused why this invalidates her or even why there's so much focus on her in this conversation? 

Tbh Wendy isn't that relevant to this conversation I will agree with you on that. All I'm saying is if a new player is struggling this hard then Wanda isn't a good character to get a grasp on the game. 

Learning things like the crockpot and such is good with characters with safety nets to help due to a lack of knowledge. Wendy is one of them, Wanda is not. 

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  I never said healing was a issue for experienced players. Honestly it feels like with each response the skill level of these hypothetical new/casual players keeps rising. 

And you keep dropping their skill level, making them more naive and yet somehow completely oblivious. 

If a player is that new then they absolutely shouldn't start with Wanda. Wanda will only teach you how to play Wanda. Learning with Wilson will help in learning how to play 90% of the cast and get more general knowledge like healing with practical recipes.

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So now these new/casual players are killing bee queen now too eh?

If I'm being honest I'm beginning to wonder if people have actually been reading what I've been typing at this point...

I have, not sure if you're reading counter points though given you didn't even know why I brought up wickers downside.

[Cloakingsumo198]

I feel like the current argument is about two different things. 

One side is speaking about how Wanda enforces more engagement than Wendy and is therefore not op which doesn't make sense.

While the other is saying Wanda isn't more complicated than normal gameplay and isn't hard.

 

The average player would more than likely learn how to play Wanda just as easily as any other character. .

Wanda doesn't need some 5d chess levels of brain activity to play lol this is getting grossly over exaggerated.

 

You're all also missing the point with greatly exaggerating noob qualities

If a player is good enough to dig up 40 blue shrooms, make 40 healing recipes, or 40 healing salves they can just as easily work around their ageless clock cool down or make more ageless clocks instead.

A good player won't have to worry about making healing food or healing items anymore when playing Wanda instead just watching her age and cool downs, another benefit...

If they can already Speedrun ruins, they just got even better loot just by being Wanda, her alarming clock cost the same amount as a Thulecite club except it's infinite.

Wanda plays extremely different and it's not some gimmick way of playing either, it's actually really strong when playing the way she "favors"

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

A stack of spider glands and Abigail >>>>>> Wanda with 1-2 ageless watches

i raise the bet: wigfrid

[ethannnnnnn]

57 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you not read my previous posts or are there just a ton of new and casual players ruins rushing, knowing about the cooking wiki, educated on farming, and having perfect sanity management? As for wickerbottoms weakness yes I have indeed seen new players die to nightmare creatures I'm not saying it's a good one but what does that even have to do with this? I'm noticing Wendy keeps getting thrown in as the reason to not play Wanda but I'm still confused why this invalidates her or even why there's so much focus on her in this conversation?   I never said healing was a issue for experienced players. Honestly it feels like with each response the skill level of these hypothetical new/casual players keeps rising. 

So now these new/casual players are killing bee queen now too eh?

If I'm being honest I'm beginning to wonder if people have actually been reading what I've been typing at this point...

Okay let me make it as clear as possible. If you don't agree, then fine maintain that position.

Wanda is objectively harder than most other survivors due to her frail nature. According to the community, the most common ways of dying are via spiders, overheating/freezing, hounds, tentacles, frogs, and pengulls. These are among the highest causes of death in DST. Wanda's traits only make fighting these things (save for lone tentacles) harder if you're not even using her old form (which again, you've said is unnecessary for her to even shine). And even if you are using old form, you're at a huge disadvantage and cannot heal your way out of it. No Wartox can save you, no pierogis, no passive jelly bean healing--nothing, because Wanda can't use them. Even her watches will not help in this situation. She is inherently at a disadvantage in the situations that players find themselves most disadvantageous! The only characters comparable to this state are wimpy wolf, Wes, and Maxwell. Everyone else has something that helps in situations like these (because at the very least they have more health and more healing options). In order to survive as Wanda in situations like these, you need to have skill. That's the whole point I've been making. She is harder, and therefore I'd say not overpowered at all. Pre-refresh Wolf was overpowered. He had ALL the upsides with virtually 0 downsides. Wanda is a far cry from the mountain top that was pre-refresh Wolf, and she stands atop the characters now in game design alone, not in power.

[Kemthazul]

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She is harder, and therefore I'd say not overpowered at all

Ah, yes.

Wanda starts with one ageless watch, and has enough time pieces to make 3 more. Nonetheless..

Wanda ages 12 a day

An ageless watch, if used on cool down all the time, gives 24 32 a day.

This is +20 net positive age, or 37.5 HP.

With 80% armor, say a log suit, that's basically 187.5 HP. Which is enough of a buffer if you ask me. I somewhat agree that Wanda will be punished more the less one knows how to handle her age. But with basic combat knowledge, like actually wearing armor before fights (I see you, frogs and spider deaths), it is manageable. Which I think most of these deaths are standard "oops no game sense/knowledge". The only chars that a hapless newbie could survive in these scenarios is a Wigfrid since she basically starts with a football helmet and lifesteal and Wendy. This is why it helps to also look at these kits in a vacuum, to see what these characters are truly capable of, instead of shifting the argument to the newbies who obviously still lack knowledge, makes the Wendy argument easier innit?

Not discounting that she can make more of these, she has the yoyo of death making fights shorter and shadow creatures trivial, can i-frame with backtrek, can revive herself with second chance watch. Is she really frail as you think she is?

Let's go to Wendy, the one with the 75% damage modifier. The crutch character that is even more crutch than Wigfrid (don't at me). modifier basically gone as soon as Abi exists, not that you need to fight anyway as Abi will literally slaughter swarms of mobs for you. See where I'm getting at?

Wanda's no pre-rework Wolf for sure, but that doesn't make her a saint of DST char game design.

[Mysterious box]

34 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Health has a visual.  Its a very easy to read meter with a full and empty.  Its very obvious what low health looks like at a glance.  Further - you only lose health when something happens.  You can stay at 1 health as long as you can prevent anything else bad happening.

Wanda's time bar is a few dark shades, no clear contrast.  She also continually loses health even when nothing else is happening.  The need to use AW is constant.  If you use your AW and get hit down to 78 health you just get to watch your character die lol.

The bane of DST is "oops I forgot x"  X can be food, a weapon, armor, healing, hound wave timing, whatever.  X for Wanda can also be you forgot to wind your watch.  It happens.  Don't discount the constantly draining health as if its some paltry thing.  Without even getting into a fight Wanda can die, it takes a LOT for any other survivor to do that.

Your right a player can die without getting into a fight but unless your for some reason not looking at the screen I don't see how your ignoring your character's form change, the text that's basically says "I'm dying", sound que, and the fact your character looks visibly older it's very easy to not notice various bars depleting on any character but you have to legitimately go out of your way to ignore all those signs if you not intentionally playing at old age. Forgetfulness is indeed the bane of dst but it doesn't just effect Wanda if your trying to keep her young she gives you much more in your face warnings about her physical state than any other character.

 

34 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You don't know how if / then statements work do you?  IF they are X then the situation is Y.  I am presenting two cases, with their resulting outcomes.  You pick - are they able to avoid fights?  Yes?  Then constantly draining health is another passive drain to manage.  No - they can't avoid fights?  Then they'll probably fail their healing trying to spam it mid-fight.

Rather I suspect you're willfullly misreading things to continue pressing for this "young wanda op meta" as if its any stronger than any other character.  You still need to be able to avoid fights, if you can't do that an AW isn't going to save you.

Why do you keep trying to say I'm trying to say Wanda is op I'm seriously wondering this. Also yes you do need to be able to avoid fights which is why it's a good thing that most of the games fights wait for you to initiate combat or enter aggression range.

 

34 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Your argument is that an AW is powerful enough to make Wanda noob friendly.  I've heard people talk up this "young wanda meta" and honestly, it sounds BS every time.  What does it actually give the player?  If a player is literally struggling with healing so much, I kinda doubt AW is going to solve that - because it comes with continually draining health, works on a cd, and removes ALL other healing methods.  No butterflies, no spider glands, etc.  Its the only heal in the game that can be cancelled for mistiming, and it roots you for 2 seconds when you use it.  Its not a spam to win item.  For what paltry gains she gets in this playstyle, I don't see how it would help a new player at all.

If a new player needs a character that can help carry them - get them Wendy, not Wanda.

If a player is struggling really hard with healing their gonna die whoever they pick your talking as tho I'm saying the watch will solve any and all problems a player might encounter and that Wanda is this super over powered character who will solve all problems just because she's not Wendy does not mean she's useless and believe it or not new and casual players pick more than just Wendy I get it Wendy can do this and that and everything in between is that what you want to hear? That if a character doesn't have something to finish fights automatically for them they have no business being played by a casual player? Wendy does not negate the fact that the watch can be useful to them nor does the fact Wanda has draining hp.

 

29 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

How are they finding the archives? How do they know where to get nightmare fuel from if they keep dying to nightmares? How do they know where to get thulecite from?

You're contradicting yourself if you keep making the experienced player naive for my examples and suddenly giving them the knowledge for yours. 

Fair tbh I forgot I even said that one.

 

29 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

If they're dying to nightmares how are they getting the 8 nightmare for the alarming watch? 

As for for the Wickerbottom example, re-read what I wrote and why I used that example. They didn't die due to a lack of sleep but a lack of sanity management. While sleep is a way to restore sanity it is not the only one, meaning sleeping isn't a necessity. Ageless watches are a necessity for healing meaning they are a far more relevant downside.

Again your not wrong but sleeping is often a easier way for them to recover sanity as more often than not in my experience most don't know sanity recipes(even if they're a quick google search away)

As for the alarming watch I'm not sure that serves much use for a casual player as they'd still need to be pretty good at combat to keep refilling it anyway

33 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Tbh Wendy isn't that relevant to this conversation I will agree with you on that. All I'm saying is if a new player is struggling this hard then Wanda isn't a good character to get a grasp on the game. 

Learning things like the crockpot and such is good with characters with safety nets to help due to a lack of knowledge. Wendy is one of them, Wanda is not.

Wendy is a huge safety net that can very well teach the wrong lessons about the game if you don't intend to only play wendy but let me ask why is Wanda bad for learning the game? Yea I get it she can't heal from food but I'd say she teaches the most important lessons of all in dst don't tank and pick your battles what is having overwhelming combat strength teaching you as someone who plans to play other characters?

 

36 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

And you keep dropping their skill level, making them more naive and yet somehow completely oblivious. 

If a player is that new then they absolutely shouldn't start with Wanda. Wanda will only teach you how to play Wanda. Learning with Wilson will help in learning how to play 90% of the cast and get more general knowledge like healing with practical recipes.

I ask you seriously very seriously are you saying that people are learning  about healing crockpot dishes thru simple experimentation sure I can like blue caps and butterfly wings slide but I have a hard time buying that people aren't learning healing recipes thru the internet or other people telling them.

18 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

Okay let me make it as clear as possible. If you don't agree, then fine maintain that position.

Wanda is objectively harder than most other survivors due to her frail nature. According to the community, the most common ways of dying are via spiders, overheating/freezing, hounds, tentacles, frogs, and pengulls. These are among the highest causes of death in DST. Wanda's traits only make fighting these things (save for lone tentacles) harder if you're not even using her old form (which again, you've said is unnecessary for her to even shine). And even if you are using old form, you're at a huge disadvantage and cannot heal your way out of it. No Wartox can save you, no pierogis, no passive jelly bean healing--nothing, because Wanda can't use them. Even her watches will not help in this situation. She is inherently at a disadvantage in the situations that players find themselves most disadvantageous! The only characters comparable to this state are wimpy wolf, Wes, and Maxwell. Everyone else has something that helps in situations like these (because at the very least they have more health and more healing options). In order to survive as Wanda in situations like these, you need to have skill. That's the whole point I've been making. She is harder, and therefore I'd say not overpowered at all. Pre-refresh Wolf was overpowered. He had ALL the upsides with virtually 0 downsides. Wanda is a far cry from the mountain top that was pre-refresh Wolf, and she stands atop the characters now in game design alone, not in power.

Once again I'll say my point was never that she was op I'm not even sure why this keeps coming up. What keeps coming up is that she can't spam heal which is very much true and I even agree with this but at the same time a point I was making is that in a lot of these situations your people playing (lets say Wilson to simplify this) will not have 20 stacks of pierogis or butterfly wings to spam for every fight yes I know a player can get this stuff and often very easily but not everyone is in the know on stocking up this healing and more often than not when in these disadvantaged battles they'll die anyway. I'm not saying the watches are a miracle fix all but the ability to heal on a cooldown can and does help some players survive and also means in most cases she's going to enter combat in peak condition at which point her durability will be comparable to Wilsons even if abit lower due to time drain.

[Yuuko]

53 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I feel like the current argument is about two different things. 

One side is speaking about how Wanda enforces more engagement than Wendy and is therefore not op which doesn't make sense.

While the other is saying Wanda isn't more complicated than normal gameplay and isn't hard.

One side is saying that Wanda is noob friendly b/c her ageless watch gives her unlimited healing.

Even though its not unlimited in the way you'd think if you just read that without understanding Wanda's kit.  Its "unlimited" in that it doesn't run out.  Its extremely limited in that you get about 1 perogies worth of healing every few minutes and no other form of healing can work on you, ever.  You can craft multiple watches, but you'll need to learn how to do that - and its going to be more difficult than learning how to pick some blue caps or kill some butterflies.  Much more difficult then summoning Abigail.

I don't think a new player couldn't learn to play Wanda - but if a player is struggling, taking too much damage, and dying a lot - handing them Wanda isn't going to help them.  Its just going to add another layer to learn on top of the basic things they need.  If the player isn't struggling, is able to avoid fights, etc - then the healing isn't that important because they could have easily gathered other healing items instead.  They are free to play Wanda if they want, but she isn't a crutch to carry a player while they learn.

The "infinite health" aka "young wanda OP meta" is a myth concocted by veteran players who want to frame Wanda as being easier than she is.

Is Wanda hard?  I mean, this isn't Dark Souls, what kind of "difficulty" are you expecting?  Being glass cannon doesn't mean hard, it means fragile.  If you want to get the mega deeps that is Wanda you've got to be playing in Elder form, and during this time you are closer to death than any other character.  "BUT WEAR NIGHT ARMOR" yeah, turns out anyone can do that.  Do you wanna walk around at 10 health on Wilson b/c you have night armor?  Nah, I don't think so.

-------------------------------------

I do think they could exacerbate Wanda's weakness to make her more glass.  Cut the AC watch damage at young ages, and make it less effective against nightmares.  Could give it a slightly longer wind up / shorter recovery so that the attack takes the same total time, but the damage happens later in the animation, makes early cancels more likely to drop damage.  Could decrease the efficiency of fueling the AC to be 5-8 for a full charge instead of 4.  Lots of room to tinker with her kit.  None of it needs to tone down where she excels.  None of it has to get in the way of a new player who decided they wanted to pick up Wanda either.

Do I think she needs a nerf?  Nope.  I didn't think Wolfgang needed a nerf either.  I used to think so, but when Wendy got her rework, and Wanda got released it seemed they were okay with that level of power ceiling.  Old Wolf and current Wanda were pretty much on par with their ability to deal with the game in their own ways, being equally valid choices for a powerful character.  Now eh...  Wanda is clearly the power pick, Wolf is now a fantasy for noobs who enjoy watching lift animations on loop :\

Klei is gonna do what they do, but I don't think nerfing things is the right direction for DST unless something is actually broken.  What will they do next?  Start invalidating walls against dfly?  Make her immune to the pan flute?  Limit our options and how we play the game even more?  Personally I'd rather there be disparity in character choice, because sometimes the game isn't about mad deeps.

[Cloakingsumo198]

38 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The "infinite health" aka "young wanda OP meta" is a myth concocted by veteran players who want to frame Wanda as being easier than she is.

This is where you continue to fall through by arguing a point no one else is making.

Most people are taking into account the amount of time it takes for ageless clocks to come off cool down and to cast. 

Every animation gets cancelled when the player gets hit crafting, attacking, healing through food or healing salves how long the opportunity for being cancelled depends on the item. The only difference Wanda has is that her heal goes on cool down when it's cancelled and it can't be used when taking "Damage over time".

Young Wanda isn't some handicap, she isn't worse than other characters and she still gets access to all her tools.

Why don't you ever acknowledge playing safe, or being young for obviously risky situations instead of constantly insinuating that Wanda is essentially FORCED and STUCK as some frail helpless character.

For every day that Wanda survives without taking damage and if she constantly using her ageless clock she will heal for effectively 50 hp each day for free, this stacks with multiple clocks which you can either leave at base for quick healing or take with you for more healing opportunities. Having 3 ageless clocks is effectively being able to fully heal yourself every day through time.

38 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

 don't think a new player couldn't learn to play Wanda - but if a player is struggling, taking too much damage, and dying a lot - handing them Wanda isn't going to help them.  

You speak as if playing a new character will solve a new player's problems entirely.

Character choice doesn't matter, what matter's is the players knowledge and their creativity to use the tools set in front of them to their upmost advantage.

Wanda's methods don't mirror Wendy's and both don't match the way Webber or wurt plays.

When playing wormwood you don't complain that he can't eat food to heal you work around it and in some cases USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. He can eat redcaps, raw monster meat without taking damage and boom using your character to it's potential.

Wanda's just constantly complain, and complain, AND COMPLAIN about having a infinite healing salve that works every 2 minutes for effectively 4 heals each day, that is craftable and storable (OH WOE IS MEEEEE) instead of rejoicing that they don't have to constantly farm for healing foods.

I find it funny that people can constantly call going insane quicker as perk instead of a drawback since it can be used to farm for nightmare fuel easier.

But effectively removing the need to farm for healing items and receiving healing on cool down instead is way too convoluted as a drawback to ever be seen as a side-grade or perk instead of a drawback.

[ethannnnnnn]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Once again I'll say my point was never that she was op I'm not even sure why this keeps coming up. What keeps coming up is that she can't spam heal which is very much true and I even agree with this but at the same time a point I was making is that in a lot of these situations your people playing (lets say Wilson to simplify this) will not have 20 stacks of pierogis or butterfly wings to spam for every fight yes I know a player can get this stuff and often very easily but not everyone is in the know on stocking up this healing and more often than not when in these disadvantaged battles they'll die anyway.

These are your own words:
"The thing is surviving as her isn't hard for lower skilled players due to always having healing on her even if it needs a cooldown..."

So I'll clarify and say you didn't call her OP as far as I've looked. My argument that she's still one of the hardest characters to survive on as a low-skilled player still stands.

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I'm not saying the watches are a miracle fix all but the ability to heal on a cooldown can and does help some players survive and also means in most cases she's going to enter combat in peak condition at which point her durability will be comparable to Wilsons even if abit lower due to time drain.

But these helpless players you're describing are able to find enough thulecite fragments for even one more watch?

[Eughstein]

Btw by nerf i meant not nerfing some already strong items like alarming clock or teleportation, but adding some debuff to Wanda herself.Like debuff on Wanda in mid age form so it won't be just Wanda but stronger, or some other debuff on Wanda in general.Because her hp system even if counting as debuff still not enough counting her perks.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

These are your own words:
"The thing is surviving as her isn't hard for lower skilled players due to always having healing on her even if it needs a cooldown..."

So I'll clarify and say you didn't call her OP as far as I've looked. My argument that she's still one of the hardest characters to survive on as a low-skilled player still stands.

But these helpless players you're describing are able to find enough thulecite fragments for even one more watch?

She starts with 3 time pieces enough for a total of 4 watches

 

4 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

These are your own words:
"The thing is surviving as her isn't hard for lower skilled players due to always having healing on her even if it needs a cooldown..."

So I'll clarify and say you didn't call her OP as far as I've looked. My argument that she's still one of the hardest characters to survive on as a low-skilled player still stands.

This can be applied to a fair amount of characters and his a highly situational claim.

[Mike23Ua]

25 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

But these helpless players you're describing are able to find enough thulecite fragments for even one more watch?

Wanda spawns with a pre-built Ageless Watch, and enough clock parts to build A second ageless watch AND a Second Chance Watch all without ever needing to dive into Thulecite- In addition to this: She also gets these items back anytime she dies and respawns at the florid Postern 

Which means… on Endless Mode (and to an extent Survival as well) she’s a broken God rightfully in need a of a well deserving Nerf.

Comparing Her to Re-Worked Wolfgang.. he would need to spawn with a pre-crafted Gembell and 2-3 purple gems already in his inventory & get these items back every time he dies and respawns at the Postern.

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Which means… on Endless Mode (and to an extent Survival as well) she’s a broken God rightfully in need a of a well deserving Nerf.

Unlimited resing in endless mode oh no....  What will it mean for the game??  tbh - they could remove ALL res penalties and I wouldn't care.  Its not a major part of the game.  LGA and meat effigies aren't that far off, just unlock them.

[Koomin]

I used to think she was way too strong but her strength seems reasonably well offset by the higher risk of dying due to forgetting something small or making a minor mistake.

However, she has a few borderline ridiculous cheese strats that should be addressed.  Mainly just standing on the other side of the Klaus sack and holding F, being immune to crawling horrors by holding F while stationary, and invalidating celestial champions final phase by standing at the right distance and holding F.  None of these are any interesting strategy or skill since it's just holding a button, and they are pretty game breaking.  Fixing these wouldn't be a major nerf in any way but I think are the last touch ups needed to her release.

[JustExo]

Wanda should be nerfed, and the way you could do that is by allowing other characters to use her watches to a similar (if not worse) degree

That way the core of her character is still fine and fun to play, but now more characters have options similar to, if only a bit worse than hers

The average strength of characters gets brought up, Wanda's stays the same interesting character, she gets more team interactions, everything's epic

[marioespinho]

Maybe it's just me. But i think that the current version of Wolfgang ends up being far easier in combat than Wanda. I don't have her but i can't really see how is she OP when all i have to do as Wolf is check my instagram for notifications while he works out, and then just facetank while doing double damage.

I have to admit the whole portal thing about Wanda is cool though.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

16 minutes ago, marioespinho said:

Maybe it's just me. But i think that the current version of Wolfgang ends up being far easier in combat than Wanda. I don't have her but i can't really see how is she OP when all i have to do as Wolf is check my instagram for notifications while he works out, and then just facetank while doing double damage.

I have to admit the whole portal thing about Wanda is cool though.

that is the funny part. Wanda Op but ey wolfgang is and was a perfectly balanced characters but now we have "wanda op" comments everywhere

wendy, wigfrid, wolfgang and weeber make survival a joke, boss fights easier (and a joke with wolf or wigfrid) and they dont have much downsides or any at all. Sure wanda has teleportation but for that you will need many in game years to have enough tusk to start doing a network

 

 

[Kemthazul]

Y'know that they're not mutually exclusive right? Just that this forum thread pertains to Wanda in particular. (I did slide in some "pls nerf Wendy" comments here and there, heh).

We don't know if Klei's nerf train was just a single stop on Wolfgang, but what we do know is that pre-rework Wolfgang is the "limit/ceiling" in terms of how a character's kit is designed/tuned in mind.

[marioespinho]

46 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that is the funny part. Wanda Op but ey wolfgang is and was a perfectly balanced characters but now we have "wanda op" comments everywhere

wendy, wigfrid, wolfgang and weeber make survival a joke, boss fights easier (and a joke with wolf or wigfrid) and they dont have much downsides or any at all. Sure wanda has teleportation but for that you will need many in game years to have enough tusk to start doing a network

 

 

I understand all that. What i don't understand is why it always go the "omg OP plz nerf" route. I mean, we have Wes, wich is a hard mode of sorts. Why can't we have easy mode characters also? Or characters that make some aspects of the game easier too? I understand the whole uncompromising survival game argument, but not everyone who plays the game are bored, over 1k hour players that still want to feel challenged everytime they play. Some people like it easier too, and that should be fine, without all these cries for nerfs to everything slightly helpful.

There are plenty of characters, some easier, some harder. And that brings options for everyone who wants to enjoy the game. I can't see how that needs to be changed, unless you are trying to punish people who play the game more casually.

 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Kemthazul said:

Y'know that they're not mutually exclusive right? Just that this forum thread pertains to Wanda in particular. (I did slide in some "pls nerf Wendy" comments here and there, heh).

We don't know if Klei's nerf train was just a single stop on Wolfgang, but what we do know is that pre-rework Wolfgang is the "limit/ceiling" in terms of how a character's kit is designed/tuned in mind.

Finally someone says something smart in this thread that actually makes sense-

DST ALL of DST (not just Wanda..) is a Balancing Act, Klei has a Lowest skill Ceiling & a Highest Skill Ceiling and we aren’t talking about what PLAYERS are capable of doing/exploiting (that’s a discussion for a different thread..) We are talking exclusively about what the character is capable of- and in that Regard Klei obviously can’t balance the game around Pre-Rework Wolfgang/Wendy/Wigfrid/Wanda without that also making things more difficult then it needed to be on Wes/Maxwell.

What we end up with is they either buff lower skill ceiling characters (Wendy/Wes/Webber) or they slightly tone down the higher skill ceiling ones (Wolfgang/Wickerbottom) Otherwise: World content is designed around X character & picking Y just means instant death without urber elite skillz..

We saw Wolfgang & Wickerbottom both get nerfs while we saw Wes get buffs..

Theres a center ground Klei wants the characters to play at somewhere in between.

If a nerf is justified: Do It… but make it also FUN, UNIQUE & INTERESTING besides just straight up reduction of stats.

For example I think it would be absolutely freaking hilarious if Wanda could play off the role of little old Cat Lady.. as in her old age Catcoons warm up to and come around her, while in younger ages not being the adorable old crazy cat lady… the Catcoons won’t recognize her and are hostile.

This is what I like to call a FLAVOR NERF, instead of just making some changes to some stats or removing damage… I took her Aging Mechanic and made it interact with a mob in the game in a new and unique way.

Bees are Passive until they Turn Hostile in Spring, there’s also a scrapped concept art where Charged Moonglass was going to turn normally peaceful mobs hostile- Klei already has these ideas rolling about in their offices…

If they want to Nerf Wanda, make it Unique and FUN… not just straight up okay yeah she’s too op let’s remove X or Decrease the effects of Y.

[Cloakingsumo198]

This thread is almost as good as when Wolfgang's rework came out.